Mid-Engine Corvette Speculation Thread
#1
Mid-Engine Corvette Speculation Thread
Maybe its all poppycock, or maybe Johan and company are up to something. Either way, Interesting read:
Source
Recent spyshots of a GM mid-engine sportscar
Gallery
Call me crazy, but I'm not convinced the mid-engine Corvette is the next Corvette. The rumor is strong, yes. And, contrary to some of the comments on our site, Car and Driver - leader of the mid-engine Corvette speculation brigade - has a pretty good record predicting future models. But it's another comment that got me thinking: or maybe it's a Cadillac.
There is clearly something mid-engine going on at GM, and I think it makes sense for the car to be a Cadillac. First off, check out the 2002 Cadillac Cien concept car still looks in the photo above. Second, there are too many holes in the mid-engine Corvette theory.
The C7 is relatively young in Corvette years, starting production almost three years ago as a 2014 model. Showing a 2019 model at the 2018 North American International Auto Show would kill sales of a strong-selling car before its time. Not to mention it would only mean a short run for the Grand Sport, which was the best-selling version of the previous generation.
More stuff doesn't add up. Mid-engine cars are, in general, more expensive. Moving the Vette upmarket leaves a void that the Camaro does not fill. There's not much overlap between Camaro and Corvette customers. Corvette owners are older and enjoy features like a big trunk that holds golf clubs. Mid-engine means less trunk space and alienating a happy, loyal buyer. Also, more than 60 years of history. The Corvette is an icon along the likes of the Porsche 911 and Ford Mustang. I'm not sure the car-buying public wants a Corvette that abandons all previous conventions. And big changes bring uncertainty - I don't think GM would make such a risky bet.
Chevrolet could build a mid-engine ZR1, you might say, and keep the other Corvettes front-engine. Yes they could, and it would cost a ton of money. And they still need to fund development of that front-engine car. I highly doubt the corporate accountants would go for that.
But a Cadillac? Totally. Cadillac is in the middle of a brand repositioning. GM is throwing money at this effort. A mid-engine halo car is the just the splash the brand needs to shake off the ghosts of Fleetwoods past. And it's already in Cadillac President Johan De Nysschen's playbook. He was in charge of Audi's North America arm when the R8 came out. A Caddy sports car priced above $100,000 isn't that unreasonable when you can already price a CTS-V in that range.
Switch the NAIAS debut rumor to Cadillac, maybe even make it for 2017. Remove the conflict of abandoning Corvette history or running two costly model developments for one car. Heck, a mid-engine Cadillac could even act as a Trojan horse if the rumored demise of the current small-block engine is true. Launch a high-powered overhead-cam V8 in the Caddy and after a few years Corvette fans will be begging for an engine swap instead of grabbing their pitchforks and demanding more pushrods.
I wouldn't be surprised if Corvette engineers, or former Corvette engineers, are working on a mid-engine car. There's a lot of talent working on GM's performance vehicles, and people move between teams on a regular basis. And the Corvette's Bowling Green, Kentucky plant is a great place to make a low-volume sports car with advanced materials. But it's not clear that GM plus mid-engine equals Corvette. While we're still making random guesses, my money is on Cadillac.
There is clearly something mid-engine going on at GM, and I think it makes sense for the car to be a Cadillac. First off, check out the 2002 Cadillac Cien concept car still looks in the photo above. Second, there are too many holes in the mid-engine Corvette theory.
The C7 is relatively young in Corvette years, starting production almost three years ago as a 2014 model. Showing a 2019 model at the 2018 North American International Auto Show would kill sales of a strong-selling car before its time. Not to mention it would only mean a short run for the Grand Sport, which was the best-selling version of the previous generation.
More stuff doesn't add up. Mid-engine cars are, in general, more expensive. Moving the Vette upmarket leaves a void that the Camaro does not fill. There's not much overlap between Camaro and Corvette customers. Corvette owners are older and enjoy features like a big trunk that holds golf clubs. Mid-engine means less trunk space and alienating a happy, loyal buyer. Also, more than 60 years of history. The Corvette is an icon along the likes of the Porsche 911 and Ford Mustang. I'm not sure the car-buying public wants a Corvette that abandons all previous conventions. And big changes bring uncertainty - I don't think GM would make such a risky bet.
Chevrolet could build a mid-engine ZR1, you might say, and keep the other Corvettes front-engine. Yes they could, and it would cost a ton of money. And they still need to fund development of that front-engine car. I highly doubt the corporate accountants would go for that.
But a Cadillac? Totally. Cadillac is in the middle of a brand repositioning. GM is throwing money at this effort. A mid-engine halo car is the just the splash the brand needs to shake off the ghosts of Fleetwoods past. And it's already in Cadillac President Johan De Nysschen's playbook. He was in charge of Audi's North America arm when the R8 came out. A Caddy sports car priced above $100,000 isn't that unreasonable when you can already price a CTS-V in that range.
Switch the NAIAS debut rumor to Cadillac, maybe even make it for 2017. Remove the conflict of abandoning Corvette history or running two costly model developments for one car. Heck, a mid-engine Cadillac could even act as a Trojan horse if the rumored demise of the current small-block engine is true. Launch a high-powered overhead-cam V8 in the Caddy and after a few years Corvette fans will be begging for an engine swap instead of grabbing their pitchforks and demanding more pushrods.
I wouldn't be surprised if Corvette engineers, or former Corvette engineers, are working on a mid-engine car. There's a lot of talent working on GM's performance vehicles, and people move between teams on a regular basis. And the Corvette's Bowling Green, Kentucky plant is a great place to make a low-volume sports car with advanced materials. But it's not clear that GM plus mid-engine equals Corvette. While we're still making random guesses, my money is on Cadillac.
Recent spyshots of a GM mid-engine sportscar
Gallery
#2
I'm not sure Chevrolet could find the audiences for a front-engine and mid-engined Corvette. They are not Porsche. It would seem to make sense to put the mid-engine sports car in the Cadillac lineup to continue their march toward luxury performance vehicles and give them a true "halo" car.
#3
I would be surprised to hear Cadillac would add a mid engine sports car to their lineup.
They already tried this with the XLR built from 2004-09. Built in Bowling Green in a separate area from Corvette with a Northstar V8 and retractable hardtop with all the goodies. It was a great vehicle but pricey and never sold well. I'd love to have one now.
They already tried this with the XLR built from 2004-09. Built in Bowling Green in a separate area from Corvette with a Northstar V8 and retractable hardtop with all the goodies. It was a great vehicle but pricey and never sold well. I'd love to have one now.
#5
I would be surprised to hear Cadillac would add a mid engine sports car to their lineup.
They already tried this with the XLR built from 2004-09. Built in Bowling Green in a separate area from Corvette with a Northstar V8 and retractable hardtop with all the goodies. It was a great vehicle but pricey and never sold well. I'd love to have one now.
They already tried this with the XLR built from 2004-09. Built in Bowling Green in a separate area from Corvette with a Northstar V8 and retractable hardtop with all the goodies. It was a great vehicle but pricey and never sold well. I'd love to have one now.
That being said, I do think the XLR is a styling masterpiece. Hopefully this time around Cadillac will learn from their mistakes with the XLR, ie putting in the Northstar V8 instead of the LS2 and LS7 and keeping the same crap quality interior like a Vette.
#7
Lexus Fanatic
I don't think the "mid engine Corvette" will be called a "Corvette" or will replace the front engined Corvette, they will likley name the mid engined sports car the ZR-1 or something like that and it will carry a 100K plus price tag but be sold as a Chevy. Cadillac will likely get a more luxurious version of that car or maybe their version first but they will not dump the front engine Corvette because traditional Corvette buyers like it front engined and won't be able to afford a mid engined 100K Corvette.
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#9
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
have you driven one? i have and while i REALLY wanted to love it (looks good) the drive was very sloppy - and i thought the handling would be even better with the electronic magnetic ride shocks.
#10
I'm not looking for road hugging sport car just a weekend luxo cruiser with a retractable hardtop.
#11
#12
Mid-engine Corvette targeted for 2019 code name 'Emperor'
While America’s iconic sports car has gone through seven generations of upgrades since it debuted in 1953, a mid-engine architecture would be the most radical change in Corvette history. The sources, who asked not to be identified because company plans have not been made public, said production of the mid-engine rocket would eventually be the only Corvette produced. One of those people said the current, front-engine C7’s Z06 and Grand Sport models would continue through 2021.
The eighth-generation Corvette C8 – codenamed “Emperor” — is targeted for an unveiling in early 2018, sources said.
“We do not comment on future product plans,” a Chevy spokesperson said.
One former GM employee with knowledge of the project said, “It’s happening. Mark Reuss wants it,” referring to the automaker’s global product development chief. “It’s the worst-kept secret in town.”
Chevy has long been concerned by Corvette’s aging demographic, and a mid-engine performance car could appeal to younger buyers.
“The median age of the Corvette buyer got three years older while I was there, which scared the hell out of us,” says Tom Wallace, who was Corvette’s chief engineer from 2006 until 2008.
Some sources say a mid-engine Corvette could be the basis for a Cadillac sports car.
When Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen was asked by Motor Trend last fall if a Cadillac “halo” car based on a mid-engine Corvette might be in the cards, he replied: “It has to be one of the options that we consider. In the future there are going to be some architectures inside the corporation that will remain purely Cadillac, but then there are others where it just isn’t economically feasible to enter segments by trying to do a unique Cadillac. Then you look at what’s available in terms of corporate assets. And I’m sure you’d agree that a new, very advanced Corvette platform wouldn’t be a bad place to start.”
---
C8 characteristics
With the engine located behind the driver and in front of the rear wheels, mid-engine sports cars are prized by performance-car fans for their balanced handling characteristics. The mid-engine format would make it more current with Corvette race-program competitors like the much-pricier Ferrari 488 and Ford GT.
The C8 is expected to be equipped with performance innovations like an active-aerodynamic system to enhance downforce, according to Car & Driver’s Don Sherman, who has been following the car’s development since 2014. The magazine says the next-generation Corvette will be powered by the tried-and-true small-block pushrod V-8 to keep costs down.
The mid-engine format would allow GM more flexibility to make performance variants — perhaps an all-wheel drive, plug-in hybrid model with electric motors driving the front wheels. That would put it head-to-head — at a more modest price — with cutting-edge, mid-engine hybrid supercars such as the Acura NSX and Porsche 918.
GM and Chevrolet last year trademarked the names Corvette E-Ray and Manta Ray. The names, some analysts believe, indicate the company is considering multiple vehicle variants.
Bob Lutz, GM’s former head of product development, speculates that the program’s long lead time — the C8 wouldn’t go into production until late 2018 — foreshadows an electric version “with 10- to 15-mile plug-in electric capability.”
“That would only require a 5-kWh battery, or $1,300 at today’s lithium-ion prices (plus motors and control hardware),” he said in an email. “It would be enough to give it a 50 mpg city label, and the electric motors at the front would enable limited AWD capability.”
The company recently announced investments totaling nearly $800 million in its Bowling Green Assembly Plant in Kentucky, where Corvettes are built. That includes $153 million for improving vehicle assembly line processes, on top of $137 million in previously committed capital. Last year, GM said it would invest $439 million for a new paint shop and $44 million to expand its Performance Build Center.
The plant is expected to be shut down for three months in mid- to late-2017 for retooling.
Lutz and Wallace say that they and then-Corvette Assistant Chief Engineer Tadge Juechter got the mid-engine Corvette approved in 2007, only to see the project shelved while GM went through bankruptcy reorganization in 2009.
Lutz says the $800 million Bowling Green investment figure is in line with what was asked for nine years ago.
“The program I got approved in ’07 was $900 million,” Lutz says, “and included a Cadillac XLR with a supercharged Northstar engine. If the current program is $800 million, I’d bet it includes a different-bodied Cadillac again as well.”
General Motors Co. intends to start selling a mid-engine Chevrolet Corvette in early 2019, according to multiple sources familiar with the company’s planning.
---
From ‘what-if’ to project
Corvette faithful have already begun putting down deposits on the car. Les Stanford Chevrolet in Dearborn, one of the top three Corvette sellers in the United States, confirms about two dozen customers have put down $2,000 on the C8 to be first in line.
“The potential for a mid-engine Corvette is in the future,” says General Sales Manager Scott Montgomery. “We have a lot of attention from members of the enthusiast community who have never been wrong.”
In addition to publishing spy shots of a camouflaged, mid-engine car undergoing testing, Car & Driver created computer renderings of the C8 featuring a muscular stance and low, menacing nose. The renderings are based on descriptions of the production prototype by people who have seen the car’s design.
Stephanie Brinley, a senior analyst with forecasting firm IHS Markit, said there have been rumors of a mid-engine Corvette for a decade. “It seems to be maturing from a ‘what-if’ to a project,” she said.
Pricing a new Corvette in line with Chevrolet and its value-brand philosophy will be important, Brinley said. It can’t have a $450,000 sticker price like the Ford GT. But Brinley said there is some space for a price increase over today’s $55,445 base C7.
GM has flirted with mid-engine Corvettes in the past, particularly in the 1960s when Chief Engineer Zora Arkus-Duntov argued it was a superior architecture. Arkus-Duntov produced four mid-engine concepts from 1960-70, including the 1968 “Astro II.”
The Astro was a reaction to the mid-engine 1966 Ford GT-40 and its stunning success at the 24 Hours of LeMans. Fifty years later, another Ford GT has won LeMans — and this time GM’s response appears to be a full-blown, mid-engine production C8.
The eighth-generation Corvette C8 – codenamed “Emperor” — is targeted for an unveiling in early 2018, sources said.
“We do not comment on future product plans,” a Chevy spokesperson said.
One former GM employee with knowledge of the project said, “It’s happening. Mark Reuss wants it,” referring to the automaker’s global product development chief. “It’s the worst-kept secret in town.”
Chevy has long been concerned by Corvette’s aging demographic, and a mid-engine performance car could appeal to younger buyers.
“The median age of the Corvette buyer got three years older while I was there, which scared the hell out of us,” says Tom Wallace, who was Corvette’s chief engineer from 2006 until 2008.
Some sources say a mid-engine Corvette could be the basis for a Cadillac sports car.
When Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen was asked by Motor Trend last fall if a Cadillac “halo” car based on a mid-engine Corvette might be in the cards, he replied: “It has to be one of the options that we consider. In the future there are going to be some architectures inside the corporation that will remain purely Cadillac, but then there are others where it just isn’t economically feasible to enter segments by trying to do a unique Cadillac. Then you look at what’s available in terms of corporate assets. And I’m sure you’d agree that a new, very advanced Corvette platform wouldn’t be a bad place to start.”
---
C8 characteristics
With the engine located behind the driver and in front of the rear wheels, mid-engine sports cars are prized by performance-car fans for their balanced handling characteristics. The mid-engine format would make it more current with Corvette race-program competitors like the much-pricier Ferrari 488 and Ford GT.
The C8 is expected to be equipped with performance innovations like an active-aerodynamic system to enhance downforce, according to Car & Driver’s Don Sherman, who has been following the car’s development since 2014. The magazine says the next-generation Corvette will be powered by the tried-and-true small-block pushrod V-8 to keep costs down.
The mid-engine format would allow GM more flexibility to make performance variants — perhaps an all-wheel drive, plug-in hybrid model with electric motors driving the front wheels. That would put it head-to-head — at a more modest price — with cutting-edge, mid-engine hybrid supercars such as the Acura NSX and Porsche 918.
GM and Chevrolet last year trademarked the names Corvette E-Ray and Manta Ray. The names, some analysts believe, indicate the company is considering multiple vehicle variants.
Bob Lutz, GM’s former head of product development, speculates that the program’s long lead time — the C8 wouldn’t go into production until late 2018 — foreshadows an electric version “with 10- to 15-mile plug-in electric capability.”
“That would only require a 5-kWh battery, or $1,300 at today’s lithium-ion prices (plus motors and control hardware),” he said in an email. “It would be enough to give it a 50 mpg city label, and the electric motors at the front would enable limited AWD capability.”
The company recently announced investments totaling nearly $800 million in its Bowling Green Assembly Plant in Kentucky, where Corvettes are built. That includes $153 million for improving vehicle assembly line processes, on top of $137 million in previously committed capital. Last year, GM said it would invest $439 million for a new paint shop and $44 million to expand its Performance Build Center.
The plant is expected to be shut down for three months in mid- to late-2017 for retooling.
Lutz and Wallace say that they and then-Corvette Assistant Chief Engineer Tadge Juechter got the mid-engine Corvette approved in 2007, only to see the project shelved while GM went through bankruptcy reorganization in 2009.
Lutz says the $800 million Bowling Green investment figure is in line with what was asked for nine years ago.
“The program I got approved in ’07 was $900 million,” Lutz says, “and included a Cadillac XLR with a supercharged Northstar engine. If the current program is $800 million, I’d bet it includes a different-bodied Cadillac again as well.”
General Motors Co. intends to start selling a mid-engine Chevrolet Corvette in early 2019, according to multiple sources familiar with the company’s planning.
---
From ‘what-if’ to project
Corvette faithful have already begun putting down deposits on the car. Les Stanford Chevrolet in Dearborn, one of the top three Corvette sellers in the United States, confirms about two dozen customers have put down $2,000 on the C8 to be first in line.
“The potential for a mid-engine Corvette is in the future,” says General Sales Manager Scott Montgomery. “We have a lot of attention from members of the enthusiast community who have never been wrong.”
In addition to publishing spy shots of a camouflaged, mid-engine car undergoing testing, Car & Driver created computer renderings of the C8 featuring a muscular stance and low, menacing nose. The renderings are based on descriptions of the production prototype by people who have seen the car’s design.
Stephanie Brinley, a senior analyst with forecasting firm IHS Markit, said there have been rumors of a mid-engine Corvette for a decade. “It seems to be maturing from a ‘what-if’ to a project,” she said.
Pricing a new Corvette in line with Chevrolet and its value-brand philosophy will be important, Brinley said. It can’t have a $450,000 sticker price like the Ford GT. But Brinley said there is some space for a price increase over today’s $55,445 base C7.
GM has flirted with mid-engine Corvettes in the past, particularly in the 1960s when Chief Engineer Zora Arkus-Duntov argued it was a superior architecture. Arkus-Duntov produced four mid-engine concepts from 1960-70, including the 1968 “Astro II.”
The Astro was a reaction to the mid-engine 1966 Ford GT-40 and its stunning success at the 24 Hours of LeMans. Fifty years later, another Ford GT has won LeMans — and this time GM’s response appears to be a full-blown, mid-engine production C8.
#13
Lexus Champion
I'd rather see them do AWD with front engine first (look at GT-R performance specs) - I'm afraid the price for a mid-engined vette will be crazy.
Last edited by bagwell; 08-05-16 at 03:04 PM.
#14
I'm thinking the push for this mid engine Vette is that they want to stay competitive at LeMans and in the ISMA races, mid engined race cars are faster. Although I can't see how they'd sell a mid engined carbon fiber tub car for anywhere near the prices Corvettes sell for today. It would probably be at least 150k, if not 200k like the Audi R8.
Also if this is going on sale in 2018, it means the C7 had a pretty short production life by Vette standards, just 5 years, if the mid engine car replaces the C7. I'm thinking there will be two Corvette models on sale at the same time, the C7 and this new mid engined Corvette called the "Corvette ZR1", "Corvette Manta Ray", somehow this new mid engined car will have the Corvette name in it somewhere. Its always been the rule at Chevy and GM that the Corvette is the #1 performing car, cars that were faster than the Vette didn't stick around(Buick Grand National, GMC Syclone pickup, 1989 20th Anniversary Trans Am). It would be weird if they were selling the C7 Corvette and this new mid engined car at the same time under a different model name.
#15
Chevy has long been concerned by Corvette’s aging demographic, and a mid-engine performance car could appeal to younger buyers.
The median age of the Corvette buyer got three years older while I was there, which scared the hell out of us,” says Tom Wallace, who was Corvette’s chief engineer from 2006 until 2008.
The median age of the Corvette buyer got three years older while I was there, which scared the hell out of us,” says Tom Wallace, who was Corvette’s chief engineer from 2006 until 2008.
Corvette faithful have already begun putting down deposits on the car. Les Stanford Chevrolet in Dearborn, one of the top three Corvette sellers in the United States, confirms about two dozen customers have put down $2,000 on the C8 to be first in line.