"Something Coming Real Soon on 4Runner"
03-28-13, 01:55 PM
#16
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I REALLY hope the V8 comes back, getting rid of the V8 on the 4Runner was one of the DUMBEST moves Toyota made in the last several years. It's probably coming as part of a mid-cycle refresh, as the 4Runner is almost due for one.
Similarly disappointed that they got rid of the V6 in the Rav4, although it's not quite as dumb of a move in that case.
Toyota needs to stop obsessing over future economy regulations, and focus MORE on innovation. No matter the regulations, innovation CAN and WILL be able to meet future regulations. And by innovation, I mean specifically innovating and improving V8 engines for trucks and SUVs.
Similarly disappointed that they got rid of the V6 in the Rav4, although it's not quite as dumb of a move in that case.
Toyota needs to stop obsessing over future economy regulations, and focus MORE on innovation. No matter the regulations, innovation CAN and WILL be able to meet future regulations. And by innovation, I mean specifically innovating and improving V8 engines for trucks and SUVs.
03-28-13, 07:18 PM
#17
ToMoCo has got to be on the verge of a major revolution with engines...I just don't see how they couldn't be.
Believe it or not, the GR series V6 is now more than 8 years old. It debuted on the 2005 Avalon in February of 2005 and later became available on numerous Toyotas and Lexus. It has been a great engine and still is, but it's now "competitive" and no longer class leading in performance or efficiency. The engine has never gotten a significant refresh and any MPG improvements have been credited to new 6 or 8 speed transmissions. In my opinion, this is rather unacceptable. Valvematic and other technologies have been available for years and not once have they been applied to a U.S. Toyota or Lexus model over 8 years.
The UR series V8 debuted on the 07 Tundra, LS and GS and, like the GR V6, has not been updated since it's introduction. The engine is still competitive in some segments (Tundra) but has fallen sorely behind in others (GS, LS). Leaving that engine unattended and not updating it in the company's flagship vehicle (LS), is embarrassing.
Toyota, in my opinion, has also been much too slow to embrace newer transmission technologies across the board. The LS' 8AT was great in 2007, but to be building $50k GSs and $90k LXs with 6ATs in 2013 is borderline unacceptable right now. We need to quickly be moving to every V6 and V8 model having 8 speed transmissions, and the four cylinders need to all be using at least 6 gears.
I am not nitpicking here, because as spwolf and others are sure to tell me, Toyota's engines are competitive. Yes, they are, BUT people expect a certain level of innovation and kaizen from Toyota, and IMO, they just haven't kept on top of powertrain upgrades like they should have. As the months go by and competitors are getting more powerful, more efficient engines with more gears in their transmissions, Toyota and Lexus vehicles continue to look less and less innovative.
Taking this full circle and back to the 4Runner, Chrysler's Pentastar V6 makes 290hp and uses an 8AT. The GR V6 in the 4Runner makes 270hp and uses a 5AT. The 4Runner needs to be making 300+hp in V6 form and pumping it through 8 forward speeds. Period.
Believe it or not, the GR series V6 is now more than 8 years old. It debuted on the 2005 Avalon in February of 2005 and later became available on numerous Toyotas and Lexus. It has been a great engine and still is, but it's now "competitive" and no longer class leading in performance or efficiency. The engine has never gotten a significant refresh and any MPG improvements have been credited to new 6 or 8 speed transmissions. In my opinion, this is rather unacceptable. Valvematic and other technologies have been available for years and not once have they been applied to a U.S. Toyota or Lexus model over 8 years.
The UR series V8 debuted on the 07 Tundra, LS and GS and, like the GR V6, has not been updated since it's introduction. The engine is still competitive in some segments (Tundra) but has fallen sorely behind in others (GS, LS). Leaving that engine unattended and not updating it in the company's flagship vehicle (LS), is embarrassing.
Toyota, in my opinion, has also been much too slow to embrace newer transmission technologies across the board. The LS' 8AT was great in 2007, but to be building $50k GSs and $90k LXs with 6ATs in 2013 is borderline unacceptable right now. We need to quickly be moving to every V6 and V8 model having 8 speed transmissions, and the four cylinders need to all be using at least 6 gears.
I am not nitpicking here, because as spwolf and others are sure to tell me, Toyota's engines are competitive. Yes, they are, BUT people expect a certain level of innovation and kaizen from Toyota, and IMO, they just haven't kept on top of powertrain upgrades like they should have. As the months go by and competitors are getting more powerful, more efficient engines with more gears in their transmissions, Toyota and Lexus vehicles continue to look less and less innovative.
Taking this full circle and back to the 4Runner, Chrysler's Pentastar V6 makes 290hp and uses an 8AT. The GR V6 in the 4Runner makes 270hp and uses a 5AT. The 4Runner needs to be making 300+hp in V6 form and pumping it through 8 forward speeds. Period.
Last edited by MPLexus301; 03-28-13 at 07:22 PM.
03-28-13, 07:22 PM
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
ToMoCo has got to be on the verge of a major revolution with engines...I just don't see how they couldn't be.
Believe it or not, the GR series V6 is now more than 8 years old. It debuted on the 2005 Avalon in February of 2005 and later became available on numerous Toyotas and Lexus. It has been a great engine and still is, but it's now "competitive" and no longer class leading in performance or efficiency. The engine has never gotten a significant refresh and any MPG improvements have been credited to new 6 or 8 speed transmissions. In my opinion, this is rather unacceptable. Valvematic and other technologies have been available for years and not once have they been applied to a U.S. Toyota or Lexus model over 8 years.
The UR series V8 debuted on the 07 Tundra, LS and GS and, like the GR V6, has not been updated since it's introduction. The engine is still competitive in some segments (Tundra) but has fallen sorely behind in others (GS, LS). Leaving that engine unattended and not updating it in the company's flagship vehicle (LS), is embarrassing.
Toyota, in my opinion, has also been much too slow to embrace newer transmission technologies across the board. The LS' 8AT was great in 2007, but to be building $50k GSs and $90k LXs with 6ATs in 2013 is borderline unacceptable right now. We need to quickly be moving to every V6 and V8 model having 8 speed transmissions, and the four cylinders need to all be using at least 6 gears.
I am not nitpicking here, because as spwolf and others are sure to tell me, Toyota's engines are competitive. Yes, they are, BUT people expect a certain level of innovation and kaizen from Toyota, and IMO, they just haven't kept on top of powertrain upgrades like they should have. As the months go by and competitors are getting more powerful, more efficient engines with more gears in their transmissions, Toyota and Lexus vehicles continue to look less and less innovative.
Believe it or not, the GR series V6 is now more than 8 years old. It debuted on the 2005 Avalon in February of 2005 and later became available on numerous Toyotas and Lexus. It has been a great engine and still is, but it's now "competitive" and no longer class leading in performance or efficiency. The engine has never gotten a significant refresh and any MPG improvements have been credited to new 6 or 8 speed transmissions. In my opinion, this is rather unacceptable. Valvematic and other technologies have been available for years and not once have they been applied to a U.S. Toyota or Lexus model over 8 years.
The UR series V8 debuted on the 07 Tundra, LS and GS and, like the GR V6, has not been updated since it's introduction. The engine is still competitive in some segments (Tundra) but has fallen sorely behind in others (GS, LS). Leaving that engine unattended and not updating it in the company's flagship vehicle (LS), is embarrassing.
Toyota, in my opinion, has also been much too slow to embrace newer transmission technologies across the board. The LS' 8AT was great in 2007, but to be building $50k GSs and $90k LXs with 6ATs in 2013 is borderline unacceptable right now. We need to quickly be moving to every V6 and V8 model having 8 speed transmissions, and the four cylinders need to all be using at least 6 gears.
I am not nitpicking here, because as spwolf and others are sure to tell me, Toyota's engines are competitive. Yes, they are, BUT people expect a certain level of innovation and kaizen from Toyota, and IMO, they just haven't kept on top of powertrain upgrades like they should have. As the months go by and competitors are getting more powerful, more efficient engines with more gears in their transmissions, Toyota and Lexus vehicles continue to look less and less innovative.
And count me in as one shocked the 4-Runner lost the 8 and the Rav-4 the 6. I thought the last 4-Runner was as good as it gets but the new one also leaves me cold.
03-28-13, 07:30 PM
#19
^That's another complaint. Toyota tells us that they discontinued the V6 because nobody bought it, but during some years they sold 30% of Rav4s with a V6 and every magazine raved that the V6 model was the best small ute on the road. It's hardly scientific, but it seems like far north of 30% of the Rav4s that I see are V6 equipped.
The only way I'm going to be OK with the loss of 6 cylinders is if the Rav4 gets the new 2.5L hybrid 4 cylinder with ~220hp. I drove the Rav4 recently and the chassis is wonderful, especially with the DTC AWD system, but 176hp is not even enough to get away from a stoplight briskly, let alone have fun with. Also, it's not even just a matter of aggressive driving- try loading a four cylinder CUV up with people, gear, dogs and coolers, and heading into the mountains. Not fun - at all.
My GS is now a decade old and has over 100k on it. I want something more practical but that's still fun to drive. 4cyl Rav4? Nope, sorry. If the new Highlander debuts with the same 270hp 3.5L V6, why would I want to go buy a vehicle with an engine that's (then) going to be almost ten years old? Plus, it's got a 6AT when it really should have an 8AT! 4Runner? Again, why do I want to buy a car in 2013 with an engine that's 8 years old and has a 5AT? Toyota has been using 5ATs for coming up on 20 years. Unacceptable. Once again, Toyota's "standard" right now needs to be a 300hp V6 mated to an 8AT, at least in CUVs, SUVs and trucks. The 4.6L V8 in the GX should be scrapped and replaced with a V6 at that point. The only way they've gotten away with it on the Tacoma is because they have that market completely cornered with no serious competition.
The only way I'm going to be OK with the loss of 6 cylinders is if the Rav4 gets the new 2.5L hybrid 4 cylinder with ~220hp. I drove the Rav4 recently and the chassis is wonderful, especially with the DTC AWD system, but 176hp is not even enough to get away from a stoplight briskly, let alone have fun with. Also, it's not even just a matter of aggressive driving- try loading a four cylinder CUV up with people, gear, dogs and coolers, and heading into the mountains. Not fun - at all.
My GS is now a decade old and has over 100k on it. I want something more practical but that's still fun to drive. 4cyl Rav4? Nope, sorry. If the new Highlander debuts with the same 270hp 3.5L V6, why would I want to go buy a vehicle with an engine that's (then) going to be almost ten years old? Plus, it's got a 6AT when it really should have an 8AT! 4Runner? Again, why do I want to buy a car in 2013 with an engine that's 8 years old and has a 5AT? Toyota has been using 5ATs for coming up on 20 years. Unacceptable. Once again, Toyota's "standard" right now needs to be a 300hp V6 mated to an 8AT, at least in CUVs, SUVs and trucks. The 4.6L V8 in the GX should be scrapped and replaced with a V6 at that point. The only way they've gotten away with it on the Tacoma is because they have that market completely cornered with no serious competition.
Last edited by MPLexus301; 03-28-13 at 07:37 PM.
03-28-13, 07:36 PM
#20
Lead Lap
I REALLY hope the V8 comes back, getting rid of the V8 on the 4Runner was one of the DUMBEST moves Toyota made in the last several years. It's probably coming as part of a mid-cycle refresh, as the 4Runner is almost due for one.
Similarly disappointed that they got rid of the V6 in the Rav4, although it's not quite as dumb of a move in that case.
Toyota needs to stop obsessing over future economy regulations, and focus MORE on innovation. No matter the regulations, innovation CAN and WILL be able to meet future regulations. And by innovation, I mean specifically innovating and improving V8 engines for trucks and SUVs.
Similarly disappointed that they got rid of the V6 in the Rav4, although it's not quite as dumb of a move in that case.
Toyota needs to stop obsessing over future economy regulations, and focus MORE on innovation. No matter the regulations, innovation CAN and WILL be able to meet future regulations. And by innovation, I mean specifically innovating and improving V8 engines for trucks and SUVs.
03-28-13, 07:41 PM
#21
I agree with the above posts that Toyota is behind regarding power train options. I would love to see Direct injection motors with6/8 speed trannys. My 03 and 06 4runners were V8's and a blast to drive. My 2010 and now 2011 4runner is decent but certainly not "quick".
03-28-13, 07:44 PM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
^That's another complaint. Toyota tells us that they discontinued the V6 because nobody bought it, but during some years they sold 30% of Rav4s with a V6 and every magazine raved that the V6 model was the best small ute on the road. It's hardly scientific, but it seems like far north of 30% of the Rav4s that I see are V6 equipped.
The only way I'm going to be OK with the loss of 6 cylinders is if the Rav4 gets the new 2.5L hybrid 4 cylinder with ~220hp. I drove the Rav4 recently and the chassis is wonderful, especially with the DTC AWD system, but 176hp is not even enough to get away from a stoplight briskly, let alone have fun with. Also, it's not even just a matter of aggressive driving- try loading a four cylinder CUV up with people, gear, dogs and coolers, and heading into the mountains. Not fun - at all.
My GS is now a decade old and has over 100k on it. I want something more practical but that's still fun to drive. 4cyl Rav4? Nope, sorry. If the new Highlander debuts with the same 270hp 3.5L V6, why would I want to go buy a vehicle with an engine that's (then) going to be almost ten years old? Plus, it's got a 6AT when it really should have an 8AT! 4Runner? Again, why do I want to buy a car in 2013 with an engine that's 8 years old and has a 5AT? Toyota has been using 5ATs for coming up on 20 years. Unacceptable. Once again, Toyota's "standard" right now needs to be a 300hp V6 mated to an 8AT, at least in CUVs, SUVs and trucks. The 4.6L V8 in the GX should be scrapped and replaced with a V6 at that point. The only way they've gotten away with it on the Tacoma is because they have that market completely cornered with no serious competition.
The only way I'm going to be OK with the loss of 6 cylinders is if the Rav4 gets the new 2.5L hybrid 4 cylinder with ~220hp. I drove the Rav4 recently and the chassis is wonderful, especially with the DTC AWD system, but 176hp is not even enough to get away from a stoplight briskly, let alone have fun with. Also, it's not even just a matter of aggressive driving- try loading a four cylinder CUV up with people, gear, dogs and coolers, and heading into the mountains. Not fun - at all.
My GS is now a decade old and has over 100k on it. I want something more practical but that's still fun to drive. 4cyl Rav4? Nope, sorry. If the new Highlander debuts with the same 270hp 3.5L V6, why would I want to go buy a vehicle with an engine that's (then) going to be almost ten years old? Plus, it's got a 6AT when it really should have an 8AT! 4Runner? Again, why do I want to buy a car in 2013 with an engine that's 8 years old and has a 5AT? Toyota has been using 5ATs for coming up on 20 years. Unacceptable. Once again, Toyota's "standard" right now needs to be a 300hp V6 mated to an 8AT, at least in CUVs, SUVs and trucks. The 4.6L V8 in the GX should be scrapped and replaced with a V6 at that point. The only way they've gotten away with it on the Tacoma is because they have that market completely cornered with no serious competition.
1. Enthusiast Employees are gaining ground within Toyota/Lexus and then
2. MBAs who's idea of fun is watching re-runs of "Different Strokes" punching numbers in a computer program then explain why no fun is what works.
The RAV-4 V-6 was the rare fun Toyota that gave the brand some bravado and as you stated always fared well in comparos. Its not like the engine isn't still offered so what gives? If the chassis is as good as you say it needs MORE POWER JIM.
And it seems like a re-occuring them. Lexus/Toyota is coming out with some killer chassis but they are merged with engines that are ample but not "**** YEAH THIS ROCKS". And they make it nearly impossible to modify or do anything to get more power.
Ironic that we can supercharge a Tundra to 500hp with a factory S/C and thats about it lol
03-28-13, 07:49 PM
#23
Rav4 will probably get slightly detuned version of NX turbo... thats why there was no V6. But there is no conspiracy where Toyota doesnt like selling cars, they like that and making money a lot :-)
03-28-13, 07:56 PM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
They clearly do VERY well for themselves and for shareholders. We KNOW the potential they have for truly amazing products and again these new chassis are amazing but need some more optional to appease a small group of people who would pay for it.
03-28-13, 08:08 PM
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
(crosses fingers and sacrifices a unicorn that is not a V-8 Acura that future boosted Toyota/Lexus engines can be modified and they won't have uncrackable ECUs built from the future)
03-29-13, 07:39 AM
#28
ToMoCo has got to be on the verge of a major revolution with engines...I just don't see how they couldn't be.
Believe it or not, the GR series V6 is now more than 8 years old. It debuted on the 2005 Avalon in February of 2005 and later became available on numerous Toyotas and Lexus. It has been a great engine and still is, but it's now "competitive" and no longer class leading in performance or efficiency. The engine has never gotten a significant refresh and any MPG improvements have been credited to new 6 or 8 speed transmissions. In my opinion, this is rather unacceptable. Valvematic and other technologies have been available for years and not once have they been applied to a U.S. Toyota or Lexus model over 8 years.
The UR series V8 debuted on the 07 Tundra, LS and GS and, like the GR V6, has not been updated since it's introduction. The engine is still competitive in some segments (Tundra) but has fallen sorely behind in others (GS, LS). Leaving that engine unattended and not updating it in the company's flagship vehicle (LS), is embarrassing.
Toyota, in my opinion, has also been much too slow to embrace newer transmission technologies across the board. The LS' 8AT was great in 2007, but to be building $50k GSs and $90k LXs with 6ATs in 2013 is borderline unacceptable right now. We need to quickly be moving to every V6 and V8 model having 8 speed transmissions, and the four cylinders need to all be using at least 6 gears.
I am not nitpicking here, because as spwolf and others are sure to tell me, Toyota's engines are competitive. Yes, they are, BUT people expect a certain level of innovation and kaizen from Toyota, and IMO, they just haven't kept on top of powertrain upgrades like they should have. As the months go by and competitors are getting more powerful, more efficient engines with more gears in their transmissions, Toyota and Lexus vehicles continue to look less and less innovative.
Taking this full circle and back to the 4Runner, Chrysler's Pentastar V6 makes 290hp and uses an 8AT. The GR V6 in the 4Runner makes 270hp and uses a 5AT. The 4Runner needs to be making 300+hp in V6 form and pumping it through 8 forward speeds. Period.
Believe it or not, the GR series V6 is now more than 8 years old. It debuted on the 2005 Avalon in February of 2005 and later became available on numerous Toyotas and Lexus. It has been a great engine and still is, but it's now "competitive" and no longer class leading in performance or efficiency. The engine has never gotten a significant refresh and any MPG improvements have been credited to new 6 or 8 speed transmissions. In my opinion, this is rather unacceptable. Valvematic and other technologies have been available for years and not once have they been applied to a U.S. Toyota or Lexus model over 8 years.
The UR series V8 debuted on the 07 Tundra, LS and GS and, like the GR V6, has not been updated since it's introduction. The engine is still competitive in some segments (Tundra) but has fallen sorely behind in others (GS, LS). Leaving that engine unattended and not updating it in the company's flagship vehicle (LS), is embarrassing.
Toyota, in my opinion, has also been much too slow to embrace newer transmission technologies across the board. The LS' 8AT was great in 2007, but to be building $50k GSs and $90k LXs with 6ATs in 2013 is borderline unacceptable right now. We need to quickly be moving to every V6 and V8 model having 8 speed transmissions, and the four cylinders need to all be using at least 6 gears.
I am not nitpicking here, because as spwolf and others are sure to tell me, Toyota's engines are competitive. Yes, they are, BUT people expect a certain level of innovation and kaizen from Toyota, and IMO, they just haven't kept on top of powertrain upgrades like they should have. As the months go by and competitors are getting more powerful, more efficient engines with more gears in their transmissions, Toyota and Lexus vehicles continue to look less and less innovative.
Taking this full circle and back to the 4Runner, Chrysler's Pentastar V6 makes 290hp and uses an 8AT. The GR V6 in the 4Runner makes 270hp and uses a 5AT. The 4Runner needs to be making 300+hp in V6 form and pumping it through 8 forward speeds. Period.
I wont tell you they are competitive - i will tell you that they already have all the technology, like D4S and Valvematic on other markets. They simply dont see reason to use it for US market due to price/benefit ratio.
As I said million times before, Toyota/Lexus Europe does everything you guys ask on these forums, and yet we dont have good sales... slow and careful Toyota USA? Breaking all sales records. So unforuntaley for you guys, TMS wins :-)
03-29-13, 07:41 AM
#29
maybe this new re-organization will help... Highlander and Avalon have been their best products in long time, and lets see more of that coming from American engineers and European ones as well.
03-29-13, 08:31 AM
#30
2014 and 2015 should see new V6/V8 as well as new 4cly turbo's.
I wont tell you they are competitive - i will tell you that they already have all the technology, like D4S and Valvematic on other markets. They simply dont see reason to use it for US market due to price/benefit ratio.
As I said million times before, Toyota/Lexus Europe does everything you guys ask on these forums, and yet we dont have good sales... slow and careful Toyota USA? Breaking all sales records. So unforuntaley for you guys, TMS wins :-)
I wont tell you they are competitive - i will tell you that they already have all the technology, like D4S and Valvematic on other markets. They simply dont see reason to use it for US market due to price/benefit ratio.
As I said million times before, Toyota/Lexus Europe does everything you guys ask on these forums, and yet we dont have good sales... slow and careful Toyota USA? Breaking all sales records. So unforuntaley for you guys, TMS wins :-)