Tada-san & Sasaki-san teases new Toyota Supra and sub 86 entry-level model
12-15-13, 03:11 PM
#166
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Was talking about the base V6 model but ok. $18k isn't a big price gap to you? I said if a new Supra started at $40k than that would only be a $15k price gap from the FR-S. Which is actually less that what GM is current doing. So am a little lost when it comes to your math skills.
Some people are wanting a $90k-$100k MK5. We "Supra people" are be logic and saying a "$40k-$50k" model would make more sense.
Unlike you I am actually going by facts and past statements from Toyota. $40k for a 400hp Supra is realistic. Like I said before, Toyota said if the FT-HS (400hp) did reach production "desired starting price for such a vehicle is stated to be in the mid $30,000 range."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_FT-HS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_FT-HS
what isnt plausible is a 400hp powertrain for that price. toyota's hybrids use the HSD eCVT. this new sport car would likely use a new KERS style hybrid system (Hybrid R). all of this new tech will be expensive. i think a conservative 300-320hp estimate is more realistic.
Last edited by madfast; 12-15-13 at 03:22 PM.
12-15-13, 04:43 PM
#167
I have seen nothing to suggest that Supra shares BMW platform, that has started way after we got this concept and likely will do some kind of "supercar" rather than Supra.
Toyota can do Supra with its RWD platform, that spans many of its Japanese models like Mark X and Crown.
It will likely be cheaper version of RC-type of car, with focus on price and performance vs luxury of RC.
I dont see why it wouldnt start at around 35k.
Thing is - US has cheapest car prices in the world. If this car averages at $50k, it will be too expensive to sell in the rest of the world. So question is, will Toyota invest significant technical resources to sell 3000-5000 vehicles per year, or less? Because they certainly will have trouble selling this next to Aygo and Etios.
I dont see Toyota as a company that is willing to invest its time and engineering resources into making car that few hundred will buy per month.
Toyota can do Supra with its RWD platform, that spans many of its Japanese models like Mark X and Crown.
It will likely be cheaper version of RC-type of car, with focus on price and performance vs luxury of RC.
I dont see why it wouldnt start at around 35k.
Thing is - US has cheapest car prices in the world. If this car averages at $50k, it will be too expensive to sell in the rest of the world. So question is, will Toyota invest significant technical resources to sell 3000-5000 vehicles per year, or less? Because they certainly will have trouble selling this next to Aygo and Etios.
I dont see Toyota as a company that is willing to invest its time and engineering resources into making car that few hundred will buy per month.
If it is and thats a big if "if the new Supra or Supra successor" is the BMW/Toyota car; than all we know is that the BMW/Toyota press release has stated that the joint project will be a midsize coupe for both companies and that the new car will use a new co-developed platform.
12-15-13, 04:47 PM
#168
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Well lets also consider how the Yen is trading…much more favorable today so hopefully any development means lower prices and not just more profits…
The Toyota/Lexus developed today have a much more favorable yen exchange rate here than most of the 2000s….
The Toyota/Lexus developed today have a much more favorable yen exchange rate here than most of the 2000s….
12-15-13, 04:58 PM
#169
the V6 camaro has a V8 camaro in between itself and the corvette. the FRS would have no model in between itself and a corvette priced supra. that's why i think this "supra" will be more V8 camaro than corvette in price...
right, but it wont be a 400hp hybrid at that price.
that concept is old, as is any info about it. hybrid tech is expensive, period. 400hp for 40k is unrealistic, that's all im saying.
there is definitely something brewing, you cant deny that, but everything that has to do with a toyota sports car is not a supra. why cant a DLC GT6 car be just that and not a supra? why cant BMW and toyota collaborate without it being a supra? anybody remember how the LFA was thought to be the next supra? this has been going on for a looong time. so until they actually release a "supra concept" the fans have to chill out and take sensationalist media reports with a grain of salt. the detroit reveal could be anything from a full blown real supra concept to a fiberglass shell of the GT6 DLC car like mercedes did.
what isnt plausible is a 400hp powertrain for that price. toyota's hybrids use the HSD eCVT. this new sport car would likely use a new KERS style hybrid system (Hybrid R). all of this new tech will be expensive. i think a conservative 300-320hp estimate is more realistic.
right, but it wont be a 400hp hybrid at that price.
that concept is old, as is any info about it. hybrid tech is expensive, period. 400hp for 40k is unrealistic, that's all im saying.
there is definitely something brewing, you cant deny that, but everything that has to do with a toyota sports car is not a supra. why cant a DLC GT6 car be just that and not a supra? why cant BMW and toyota collaborate without it being a supra? anybody remember how the LFA was thought to be the next supra? this has been going on for a looong time. so until they actually release a "supra concept" the fans have to chill out and take sensationalist media reports with a grain of salt. the detroit reveal could be anything from a full blown real supra concept to a fiberglass shell of the GT6 DLC car like mercedes did.
what isnt plausible is a 400hp powertrain for that price. toyota's hybrids use the HSD eCVT. this new sport car would likely use a new KERS style hybrid system (Hybrid R). all of this new tech will be expensive. i think a conservative 300-320hp estimate is more realistic.
The concept is old yes, but its drivetrain is still being used in the GS450h. They were also testing it in the MR-2 platform like a year or two ago. So I think its still to early to run anything out.
Well 1st, Toyota applied trademark for the Supra nameplate. (They did not do that when the LFA was testing). Second, even Toyota officials are throwing around the Supra nameplate (They did not do that with the LFA). Third, the LFA had a freaking "Lexus" logo on it so we all knew it wasn't a Supra or even a Toyota. Obviously you did not go to the Toyota UK site, if you did you would see even there they are using the S word with the new teaser photo/concept.
First we don't know which system they are going with. If they go with something like the FT-HS than yes Toyota said it is plausible. People on other forums are saying KERS will be too expensive for something like this. All the sports cars that are using a KERS system or will be are like $100k+ cars.
What else can the Toyota/BMW midsize coupe be? Lexus has the upcoming RC and LC. BMW has the i8.
I really do believe it will be an i6 for BMW and some form of a hybrid sports car for Toyota (whether they use the Supra name of not).
Oh, and Mercedes has actually said they are bring their GT6 concept into limited production.
Lets just agreed to disagreed
But I think we would both like to see an affordable ($35k-$40k) base Toyota flagship sports car and not something like the $100k+ GT-R R36 or NSX II (price wise).
Last edited by Vh_Supra26; 12-15-13 at 06:35 PM.
12-15-13, 05:36 PM
#170
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^^ The Camaro and Vette have a dedicated core of fans and buyers….and technically they don't have a pice gap…the Camaro starts at 24k but hits 55k with the ZL1…the base Vette is actually 52k…
I honesty don't know if there are enough buyers for a Supra….its been a very long time and I would think sales goals are very very modest. Nissan just stated they hope to sell more GT-Rs but the price sky-rocketed from 70k to 100k in 5-6 years.
B/C if you look at sales, I believe the 52k-70k Vette outsold the FRS and the Camaro sells around 5-8k a month?
I honesty don't know if there are enough buyers for a Supra….its been a very long time and I would think sales goals are very very modest. Nissan just stated they hope to sell more GT-Rs but the price sky-rocketed from 70k to 100k in 5-6 years.
B/C if you look at sales, I believe the 52k-70k Vette outsold the FRS and the Camaro sells around 5-8k a month?
12-15-13, 05:55 PM
#171
^^ The Camaro and Vette have a dedicated core of fans and buyers….and technically they don't have a pice gap…the Camaro starts at 24k but hits 55k with the ZL1…the base Vette is actually 52k…
I honesty don't know if there are enough buyers for a Supra….its been a very long time and I would think sales goals are very very modest. Nissan just stated they hope to sell more GT-Rs but the price sky-rocketed from 70k to 100k in 5-6 years.
B/C if you look at sales, I believe the 52k-70k Vette outsold the FRS and the Camaro sells around 5-8k a month?
I honesty don't know if there are enough buyers for a Supra….its been a very long time and I would think sales goals are very very modest. Nissan just stated they hope to sell more GT-Rs but the price sky-rocketed from 70k to 100k in 5-6 years.
B/C if you look at sales, I believe the 52k-70k Vette outsold the FRS and the Camaro sells around 5-8k a month?
I don't think the goal of the FR-S was to "sale well" in the US. It was just to boost Toyota's fun image. As with a new Supra or Toyota flagship sports car, its real goal is to boost the Toyota image and try to lose the bland/boring image. I also think the Supra still has a good fan base
Again, I do not want a $80k, $90K, or $100K Supra or Toyota flagship sports car. I have said over and over again, $40k-$50k price range would be perfect for me.
Yes we all know that the Camaro (80,000) out sales the FR-S (20,000).
Last edited by Vh_Supra26; 12-15-13 at 06:13 PM.
12-15-13, 06:10 PM
#172
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Ok fine, whatever with the Camaro and Corvette pricing.
Yes, we all know the Camaro and Corvette do really well in America. No surprised there.
I don't think the goal of the FR-S was to "sale well" in the US. It was just to boost Toyota's fun image.
I think if Toyota builds it, they will come
Again, I DO NOT WANT A $80k, $90K, or $100K Supra or Toyota flagship sports car. I have said over and over again, $40k-$50k price rang would be perfect for me.
The MK3 Supra had a much lower MSRP and sold way way better than the MK4.
Yes we all know that the Camaro (80,000) out sales the FR-S (20,000).
Yes, we all know the Camaro and Corvette do really well in America. No surprised there.
I don't think the goal of the FR-S was to "sale well" in the US. It was just to boost Toyota's fun image.
I think if Toyota builds it, they will come
Again, I DO NOT WANT A $80k, $90K, or $100K Supra or Toyota flagship sports car. I have said over and over again, $40k-$50k price rang would be perfect for me.
The MK3 Supra had a much lower MSRP and sold way way better than the MK4.
Yes we all know that the Camaro (80,000) out sales the FR-S (20,000).
50K would be doable for Toyota, but they need to lose the hybrid system for something more conventional and cheaper like force induction. The only high performance hybrid system Toyota ever made is in Lexus LS, and the car costs like 120K.
12-15-13, 06:17 PM
#173
Their goal was to make money out of their product, which company doesn't?
50K would be doable for Toyota, but they need to lose the hybrid system for something more conventional and cheaper like force induction. The only high performance hybrid system Toyota ever made is in Lexus LS, and the car costs like 120K.
50K would be doable for Toyota, but they need to lose the hybrid system for something more conventional and cheaper like force induction. The only high performance hybrid system Toyota ever made is in Lexus LS, and the car costs like 120K.
12-15-13, 06:23 PM
#174
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Ok fine, whatever with the Camaro and Corvette pricing. Yes, we all know the Camaro and Corvette do really well in America. No surprised there.
I don't think the goal of the FR-S was to "sale well" in the US. It was just to boost Toyota's fun image. As with a new Supra or Toyota flagship sports car, its real goal is to boost the Toyota image and try to lose the bland/boring image. I also think the Supra still has a good fan base
Again, I do not want a $80k, $90K, or $100K Supra or Toyota flagship sports car. I have said over and over again, $40k-$50k price range would be perfect for me.
Yes we all know that the Camaro (80,000) out sales the FR-S (20,000).
I don't think the goal of the FR-S was to "sale well" in the US. It was just to boost Toyota's fun image. As with a new Supra or Toyota flagship sports car, its real goal is to boost the Toyota image and try to lose the bland/boring image. I also think the Supra still has a good fan base
Again, I do not want a $80k, $90K, or $100K Supra or Toyota flagship sports car. I have said over and over again, $40k-$50k price range would be perfect for me.
Yes we all know that the Camaro (80,000) out sales the FR-S (20,000).
. As much as I would like to see a new Supra even I'm not sure I would buy it and by now people should be well aware that what the internet says/does and what people actually do are many times different. When Toyota announced the FRS as a Scion and not a Toyota it drew some fits and if the Supra comes it will really be an odd car from Toyota itself (not scion or Lexus). The GT-R at least has the Z below it.
I also agree it will boost Toyota's staid image but Toyota is selling like hotcakes, they are raking in profits and they seem to know what people want and not what people "say" they want.
12-15-13, 06:31 PM
#175
Oh I agree with you the FRS is not about sales but they wouldn't turn them down. As much as I would like to see a new Supra even I'm not sure I would buy it and by now people should be well aware that what the internet says/does and what people actually do are many times different.
When Toyota announced the FRS as a Scion and not a Toyota it drew some fits and if the Supra comes it will really be an odd car from Toyota itself (not scion or Lexus). The GT-R at least has the Z below it.
I also agree it will boost Toyota's staid image but Toyota is selling like hotcakes, they are raking in profits and they seem to know what people want and not what people "say" they want.
. As much as I would like to see a new Supra even I'm not sure I would buy it and by now people should be well aware that what the internet says/does and what people actually do are many times different. When Toyota announced the FRS as a Scion and not a Toyota it drew some fits and if the Supra comes it will really be an odd car from Toyota itself (not scion or Lexus). The GT-R at least has the Z below it.
I also agree it will boost Toyota's staid image but Toyota is selling like hotcakes, they are raking in profits and they seem to know what people want and not what people "say" they want.
Ok but everyone knows Scion really = Toyota. With that said, Toyota also has the sub 86 car in the works. Who knows, maybe that will be sold as Toyota.
Toyota is losing ground to other automakers. There has been tons of articles that stated the same thing. But anyways, it is Akio Toyoda that wants something to sit above the 86/FR-S. Who are we to argue with him?
12-15-13, 06:34 PM
#176
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Yes, it is much closer to the last Supra, I like the profile, not so sure about the rear, hope the rear is a little longer.
As for powertrains I don't think it will be getting a 4 cyl hybrid like some have suggested it might, even the FT-HS had a 6 cylinder hybrid I believe. The Supra has always had a 6 cylinder, Supra fans don't want a 4 cylinder even as a base model, the BRZ and FT-86 are already 4 cylinders. Toyota is supposed to be coming out with a turbo 6 cylinder, that will most likely be the engine for the Supra, heavily tuned up of course. I think and hope a base model will have around 300-310hp and a high performance model will have around 375hp-420hp. I believe I read a few months ago where someone from Toyota suggested a Supra successor did not have to be a hybrid and could use a IC engine alone which I think would be the best choice. As for pricing, it would be nice to see a base model be around 35 and a performance model around 42 or 43. If they price it too high it won't sell like the last one but if they hold back on performance to sell it a lot cheaper it won't be that special and won't sell well either.
The Supra does not need to hold back performance because of Lexus either, when the last Supra turbo was sold it was more expensive then several Lexus models and outperformed all Lexus models.
As for powertrains I don't think it will be getting a 4 cyl hybrid like some have suggested it might, even the FT-HS had a 6 cylinder hybrid I believe. The Supra has always had a 6 cylinder, Supra fans don't want a 4 cylinder even as a base model, the BRZ and FT-86 are already 4 cylinders. Toyota is supposed to be coming out with a turbo 6 cylinder, that will most likely be the engine for the Supra, heavily tuned up of course. I think and hope a base model will have around 300-310hp and a high performance model will have around 375hp-420hp. I believe I read a few months ago where someone from Toyota suggested a Supra successor did not have to be a hybrid and could use a IC engine alone which I think would be the best choice. As for pricing, it would be nice to see a base model be around 35 and a performance model around 42 or 43. If they price it too high it won't sell like the last one but if they hold back on performance to sell it a lot cheaper it won't be that special and won't sell well either.
The Supra does not need to hold back performance because of Lexus either, when the last Supra turbo was sold it was more expensive then several Lexus models and outperformed all Lexus models.
12-15-13, 06:44 PM
#177
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Why would you not buy it? You don't even know what it will look like, powered by, or be priced at.
Ok but everyone knows Scion really = Toyota. With that said, Toyota also has the sub 86 car in the works. Who knows, maybe that will be sold as Toyota.
Toyota is losing ground to other automakers. There has been tons of articles that stated the same thing. But anyways, it is Akio Toyoda that wants something to sit above the 86/FR-S. Who are we to argue with him?
Ok but everyone knows Scion really = Toyota. With that said, Toyota also has the sub 86 car in the works. Who knows, maybe that will be sold as Toyota.
Toyota is losing ground to other automakers. There has been tons of articles that stated the same thing. But anyways, it is Akio Toyoda that wants something to sit above the 86/FR-S. Who are we to argue with him?
It would be funny if it was named a Scion instead of a Toyota
And as much as we like to talk about the FRS, let us not forget Suburu's huge part in it. So will this be a stand-alone effort or be with BMW as some think? Not sure but its fun to guess what can happen.
This isn't 1995. The LFA came and went and that is the pinnacle, the Supra won't eclipse that.
12-15-13, 07:35 PM
#178
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Well 1st, Toyota applied trademark for the Supra nameplate. (They did not do that when the LFA was testing).
Second, even Toyota officials are throwing around the Supra nameplate (They did not do that with the LFA).
Third, the LFA had a freaking "Lexus" logo on it so we all knew it wasn't a Supra or even a Toyota.
Obviously you did not go to the Toyota UK site, if you did you would see even there they are using the S word with the new teaser photo/concept.
First we don't know which system they are going with. If they go with something like the FT-HS than yes Toyota said it is plausible. People on other forums are saying KERS will be too expensive for something like this. All the sports cars that are using a KERS system or will be are like $100k+ cars.
also toyota can parlay their supercapacitor tech learned from their LMP1 program...
What else can the Toyota/BMW midsize coupe be? Lexus has the upcoming RC and LC. BMW has the i8.
I really do believe it will be an i6 for BMW and some form of a hybrid sports car for Toyota (whether they use the Supra name of not).
I really do believe it will be an i6 for BMW and some form of a hybrid sports car for Toyota (whether they use the Supra name of not).
Oh, and Mercedes has actually said they are bring their GT6 concept into limited production.
Lets just agreed to disagreed
But I think we would both like to see an affordable ($35k-$40k) base Toyota flagship sports car and not something like the $100k+ GT-R R36 or NSX II (price wise).
Lets just agreed to disagreed
But I think we would both like to see an affordable ($35k-$40k) base Toyota flagship sports car and not something like the $100k+ GT-R R36 or NSX II (price wise).
toyota = makers of prius after all...
12-16-13, 05:59 AM
#179
B/C a car is more than the sum of its parts. Some of the BIGGEST LFA detractors are actually MKIV Supra owners and fans. As of right now the C7 Vette is incredible and even a Boxster/Cayman offers amazing performance and luxury. If Toyota can be in the 370Z price, I think they can find some buyers. The higher the price, the less chance it has. The Z has the advantage of sharing its platform and engine with seemingly endless cars so it helps keep costs down.
It would be funny if it was named a Scion instead of a Toyota
And as much as we like to talk about the FRS, let us not forget Suburu's huge part in it. So will this be a stand-alone effort or be with BMW as some think? Not sure but its fun to guess what can happen.
This isn't 1995. The LFA came and went and that is the pinnacle, the Supra won't eclipse that.
It would be funny if it was named a Scion instead of a Toyota
And as much as we like to talk about the FRS, let us not forget Suburu's huge part in it. So will this be a stand-alone effort or be with BMW as some think? Not sure but its fun to guess what can happen.
This isn't 1995. The LFA came and went and that is the pinnacle, the Supra won't eclipse that.
Again, with pretty much any Toyota sports cars, it isn't about selling huge numbers in the US. It will just boost their brand image. Import sports cars have never sold in huge numbers here unlike their domestics counterparts.
All I know is the BMW/Toyota press release said only that the both cars will share platform and drivetrain. Styling will be left to each company (unlike with the 86/BRZ). Other than that we really don't know much of anything.
Agreed, whatever this thing turns out to be I don't think it will not have 500hp (or more) like the LFA.
12-16-13, 06:18 AM
#180
huh? did that car even have an engine? afaik it was a pure concept...
its not uncommon for companies to do this so no one else can use it.
yes however how much of it is marketing and how much is actual product planning?
before we even saw a car, the LFA project was thought of as a new supra. people were surprised to find out it was a lexus.
i saw it but i dont take blog posts seriously. that site is probably run by some intern. i'll wait for the detroit auto show press conference
toyota's LMP1 car uses a single motor system sandwiched between the engine and gearbox. most of the german hybrids use this configuration already. the alternative is the HSD style eCVT and i cant see toyota being stupid enough to use that on a sport car.
also toyota can parlay their supercapacitor tech learned from their LMP1 program...
arent the rumors for the next Z4 to be on this platform? either way do you see a "supra" being made on the same platform as a Z4 or i6? more evidence this car probably isnt a supra successor in any way.
you forgot flagship HYBRID sports car toyota = makers of prius after all...
its not uncommon for companies to do this so no one else can use it.
yes however how much of it is marketing and how much is actual product planning?
before we even saw a car, the LFA project was thought of as a new supra. people were surprised to find out it was a lexus.
i saw it but i dont take blog posts seriously. that site is probably run by some intern. i'll wait for the detroit auto show press conference
toyota's LMP1 car uses a single motor system sandwiched between the engine and gearbox. most of the german hybrids use this configuration already. the alternative is the HSD style eCVT and i cant see toyota being stupid enough to use that on a sport car.
also toyota can parlay their supercapacitor tech learned from their LMP1 program...
arent the rumors for the next Z4 to be on this platform? either way do you see a "supra" being made on the same platform as a Z4 or i6? more evidence this car probably isnt a supra successor in any way.
you forgot flagship HYBRID sports car
toyota = makers of prius after all...Yes that is true, but do you really think anyone else really wants the Supra nameplate?
I'm glad you brought that up. Because I recall something about the the original plans for the LF-A project was a Supra successor. It was suppose to be a V8 aluminum body Toyota. But then the project was hijack by the Lexus division. So I see how the media was confused about that.
Whether they use the Supra name of not, it will still become Toyota's flagship sports car. Same way the MK4 sat above the MR-2 and Celica in the 90s.
Its an official Toyota website. I don't think they just let anyone write for it. But I agreed you, lets just want and see what happens at Detroit.
Yes, I am aware of what they learned with the LMP1 program; I'm just saying its still gonna cost money.
I have heard of a rumor that BMW and Toyota are developing a flexible platform that can be used on many models.
BMW-Toyota sports car platform could be used on a variety of models
http://www.4wheelsnews.com/bmw-toyot...ety-of-models/
Why couldn't an "i6" and hybrid Supra successor not share platforms? I'm sure BMW would like something to sit below their i8(and upcoming M8 (i8 based with V8 or V10?).
Last edited by Vh_Supra26; 12-16-13 at 06:29 AM.