SLegacy99

What did they pay fo their non-hybrid Camry?

Let's have some fun and run the numbers!!!

The Camry hybrid LE starts at $25,900 and averages 41 MPG.

A Camry LE starts at $22,500 and averages 30 MPG.

A difference of $3600. Street price? It's called negotiating. Toyota looks to dump even their hybrid models at model year end clearence time.


Let's say 13,000 miles a year, say owning the car for 10 years and at $4 a gallon.

The Hybrid: $12,682 in gas over the course of 10 years.

The Non-Hybrid: $17,333 in gas over the course of 10 years.

A difference of $4,651. So technically, the person that buys the regular Camry instead of the hybrid is spending $1,051 more over 10 years. That' not factoring the savings, such as brakes that last 3 times as long (saving $300 to $500 per replacement) or if the state that you reside in offers a tax rebate (Pennsylvania offers $500).

One other thing to consider is that the Camry hybrid also offers 22 more horsepower over the base inline 4. It does however weigh more.




Though smaller, my AWD Subaru Legacy does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds and it averages 21 MPG City. That's quite a bit of savings over the life of a car. ...not that I would give up my 5 speed manual of course.

SLegacy99

Keep in mind that it has also proven itself to be incredibly reliable.

Fizzboy7

Pricing all depends upon where you live. In the big metropolitan areas such as L.A., hybrids are heavily discounted. Lots of competition there and dealers have loads of them.

Overall, I'd say it's a wash. Both (Camrys) would make good choices depending on what the owner wishes to accomplish. Personally, the often-used CVT is what deters me from hybrids. If you want a little sport with your ride, the CVT saps some of that feeling. Also, most lower end hybrids lack a manumatic shifter, making the whole thing worse.

As far as going from a Prius to a 335i, that is purely an emotional purchase, not a logical one. Dealers love those, as rational is thrown out the window with the buyer. They are in love/lust and want their toy.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

both are nice cars!

SteVTEC

The study says what it says, and Polk isn't rubbish. It's talking about owner loyalty to hybrids, and that it isn't good. 65-75% of current hybrid owners not buying another hybrid does not mean that Toyota won't sell a ton of hybrids this year because you're talking about different buyers. What it tells you is that the majority of those people who are going to buy hybrids this year are first time hybrid buyers, and that the majority of people buying hybrids this year won't be buying another one next.

Anyways do the math for yourself.

regular Camry: 200,000 miles / 28 mpg combined x $4.00/gal gas = $28,571
hybrid Camry: 200,000 miles / 40 mpg combined x $4.00/gal gas = $20,000

So the difference after 200,000 miles of driving finally just manages to break even on the actual street price difference between the two models. And by the way, that's being extremely generous to the hybrid and assuming that it really would give you 12 mpg overall better than the regular model, which everybody knows isn't realistic on these things. My folks are getting 28 combined in their non-hybrid. If you're a bottom line shopper, that's an extremely tough sell, and one that my folks didn't go for.

I did mention that they're retired, so very little "city" slog stop and go type driving in rush hour for them. Extra performance on the hybrid is nice, but they already consider the 2.5L/6AT a "rocket ship" compared to their old 2.2L 5S-FE 4AT boat anchors. You might have also missed that they're getting rid of their 1998 and 2000 Camrys, over 10 year old vehicles. They don't trade in after 5 years. Sure the hybrid will be worth more after 5 years. I sure hope so cuz you paid more for it!!

Everybody except Honda now gets it that if you load your engines up with tons of low-end torque or even put a quick low RPM spooling turbo that will provide boost below 2000rpm that you can run super long overdrive gears, minimize RPM at all times, and get excellent fuel mileage especially combined with direct injection. Good diesel engines take this a step further at a fraction of the cost of a hybrid system.

SteVTEC

Yes of course! I get all that. There are certainly plenty of other reasons to buy hybrids besides the bottom line and saving money. Yes lots of people do love their hybrids too, but then why do 65% hybrid owners not buy another, or 75% if you exclude the Prius? Making a statement or being part of the 'save the planet' crowd is important if that's your thing, but in this economy the bottom line counts a lot too, and I think a lot of hybrids out there have had trouble adding up for people. If I was looking for a cheap an economical car that would help me truly save money I would not be looking at a Prius, but rather a far cheaper Hyundai Elantra or Chevy Cruze ECO or something, both of which will hit 40 mpg and are far cheaper than a Prius.

SteVTEC

Or is it limited supply? Zillions of regular 2012 Camrys were on the lot, but very few Hybrids, and they weren't negotiating on the hybrids, hence the huge street price difference. Even if you could get a good deal on the hybrid, is a 100k mile break even point acceptable? Or if gas hit $6/gal? None of that flew with my folks. They're very bottom-linish shoppers and don't have an ax to grind with the oil companies.

An engineering buddy of mine owns a Prius and thinks it's fun to drive just because of all of the technology in it and the power flow diagram while driving. My coworker was also impressed with the technology in cars these days, but she was also impressed / mesmerized by the mechanical design of the hardtop on my Bimmer and the sexy looks. So yeah, whatever floats your boat too. Everybody is different and loves cars for different reasons.

SteVTEC

That's definitely pretty cool. So you're impressed with the technology and the capability, but you're also PAYING for it up front. What's the street price on a typically equipped GS450h? You're not really saving much if any money. You're simply giving more to Toyota and less to oil companies. And believe me that's a big thing to some people. The Polk study isn't BS. You obviously have the cash to splurge on a super nice car and aren't a bottom line shopper like a lot of people are, and are one of the minority who will repeat buy another hybrid. I have a feeling that the majority of people not repeat buying a hybrid are looking more at the bottom line, and are a different type of buyer than you.

Already did the math above. I forget the exact prices they paid, but the actual street price difference was indeed in the $7-8k range.

Not everybody has the luxury of time of waiting to buy a car until you can get a really good deal. They did not even bother test driving the 2011 Camry Hybrid because of a) surprisingly lousy crash test scores (WTF?) and b) the fact that that bodystyle had a truly pathetic amount of trunk space in the hybrid version. Read that the 2012 Hybrid would have a lot more trunk space so they waited to check it out. Of course I knew they weren't gonna get a good deal on a brand new Camry and brand new hybrid the first year, but they waited to see it and if maybe they could get a good deal. Like I said though, even if the pricing came out to a 100k mile break even point, they still probably woudln't have gone for it because they're pretty heavily bottom line shoppers. I'm sure there were deals to be had on closeout 2011 Camry Hybrids, but unfortunately that car was a non-starter with them due to the two issues above.


Oh come on, you could just as easily argue that buying a Prius is an emotional decision.

2008GSh

You can probably count on one hand the number of actual automobile customers who cross shop a Legacy and a GS. A Lexus customer is more than willing to pay more to have a car that is not only faster, gets better milage, is more reliable but has a luxury buyer experience second to none.

And once you drive a CVT you will never go back. It is like being launched off of the Nimitz... All thrust, no wait. I would have bought this car JUST for the transmission.

2008GSh

Sit down, cause here comes a shocker... Any time you buy a new car you are paying for it up front. Especially luxury cars, they are not about saving money, they are about how they make you feel. If all we cared about was saving money we would all drive 1980 Chevy Citations on their third "wrecker engine swap" with over 500,000 miles on the clock... Driving an old clunker is the cheapest form of transportation and how many people who drive a POS car buy another? Only those who have no other choice.

As for hybrid sales... Interesting that they don't come back... maybe, but they you have to wonder why every year more and more are sold and more and more hybrid models are offered for sale. If they are such a bad economic proposition, who is buying all of these cars and why is the number sales increasing year after year. They have been readily available now for over a decade now. if they were so bad you'd think that you would start to see a sales decline. Just last month they set a record in both Japan and America for the most Prius'es sold in a single month EVER!

Its also more than a little ironic that you put someone who was worried about their car's reliability into a hard top BWM convertible... Ya, those never break and are free to fix.... In 4 or 5 years your friend is in for some rude awakenings.

mmarshall

I had a 1980 Citation, brand-new. It was hands-down the most unreliable new car I ever owned, though a couple of Chrysler products back then came close. New-car warranties were only 1/12 back then, so you certainly didn't save any money on repairs.

SLegacy99

Yeah, but you can't gloss over the conclusions of this study. They found that only 1/3 were repeat buyers because:

1. There were more efficient, non-hybrid offerings than there had been in the past, making hybrids less appealing.
2. Some hybrid models had been discontinued (ie. Escape Hybrid) and thus were not available for people to replace their existing hybrid with. Think brand loyalty.
3. People were choosing to upgrade to larger vehicles, many of which don't offer a hybrid variant.
4. 17,000 people purchased EVs in 2011. Many of whom turned in their HEV while obviously not purchasing another
5. Availability. Toyota is the number one vendor of hybrids and the quake disrupted supply.

What would really be interesting is how many switched to diesels, EVs, or to vehicles such as the Cruze Eco, etc.


Oh, I'm sure that it is none. I was merely making the point that here are two cars of equal quickness (to 60 MPH that is) and look the fuel economy difference, given the available technology.

STIG

I am always telling people to buy hybrid, so that I don't feel guilty about my V8s.

2008GSh

So did my mom... The point is if your goal is to save money you would buy a POS like that on Craigslist for next to nothing... drive it for a year until it blew up and then buy another disposable car. That is the cheapest way to own a car... Of course it comes with all kinds of down sides. Like being stranded, not getting to work on time, etc. Over its life an average new car will cost you about $200 a month. Luxury cars are more like double that. The initial capital depreciation is one of the most expensive parts of a car.

If anyone hopes to recoup the capital cost of a car with gas or even repair savings of course they are going to be disappointed.

RXSF

the problem here is that the title of this thread makes it seem like the OP is proud of what he has done...