SteVTEC

KILL #1: My dad has finally retired so my parents needed to replace their aging 1998 and 2000 Camrys to start going on more road trips. The 1998 was throwing check engine lights every other week, and the 2000's tranny can't be trusted. My mom had wanted a hybrid for years and test drove a Camry Hybrid and two of the Prius models. When it comes down to it though, to her it's about the bottom line and saving money, and not any image sort of thing. When I saw her trying to work out on paper what the break even point would be I started laughing, fired up Excel, and had it worked out in under 5 minutes. The biggest problem for hybrids is not the $3-4k difference in MSRP, but rather the $7-8k difference in street price. As I expected especially on the new 2012 Camry Hybrids, nobody would budge off of MSRP on them, but they got below invoice pricing on the regular XLE 2.5L/6AT model. That puts the break even point all the way out at 200,000 miles assuming they got the actual combined mileage, but most of their driving is going to be highway going on road trips where there was only a 3 mpg difference (35 non-hybrid vs 38 hybrid).

So they came home in a 2012 Camry XLE 2.5L/6AT.





KILL #2: A co-worker's 2003 Honda Pilot was starting to cost her a lot of money in repairs, and was looking at the Chevy Volt and the Toyota Prius line. But she made the mistake of going for a ride in my 2011 E93 335i, and it was all downhill from there. Looks way better than any hybrid. She had always wanted a convertible, for years now. And believe it or not it's practical enough to use as a daily family grocery hauling kid picker upper and dropper offer, and weekend trip maker. Yes, despite the fact that I'm 6'3" tall, the BMW E90 series is designed so brilliantly that I can move my seat up like a FOOT if needed as if another 6 footer was sitting behind me and still drive completely comfortably for hours, and have all the room I need for my kids in the back in their car seats. With the top up, plenty of room in the trunk for groceries and weekend trips so long as you pack smart, and it gets 30 mpg highway. How do the Germans, who are not exactly tiny people, get by with such small cars? Easy, their cars are designed so brilliantly that not an inch of space is wasted! She was also mesmerized by the motorized hardtop, and the precisely choreographed sequence in which the roof folds up into and out of the trunk.

So my co-worker now has one of these on the way, custom ordered from Germany. 2012 335i convertible.





Black on 'Coral Red', wow! HOT HOT HOT! Should be here in June. Can't wait to see how it looks in person.

Can't claim credit for this one, but one of my neighbors had a 1st gen Prius. It was replaced with a 2011 Audi A4 2.0T Avant when they had a baby. The poor Prius has been sitting for over a year now and hasn't moved and hasn't been sold. Not sure what they're doing with.

I also saw this article recently. Survey says most hybrid car owners don't buy another | Fox News. You wouldn't know it in the DC area, which seems to be a hybrid haven. Tons and tons and tons of hybrids around here! A point I agree with in the article is that the fuel efficiency of non-hybrid powertrains has indeed gone way up. My folk's old Camry 2.2L/4ATs were only rated at 20/28 mpg. The 2011 2.5L/6AT got 22/32, but they're all the way up to 25/35 on the 2012 now! Pretty darned good. So far they're getting roughly 35 mpg highway. Once it breaks in a bit and the weather warms up they'll probably be getting 36-37 mpg highway with it. Considering that, I think it definitely makes hybrids a much tougher sell, which could explain the findings in the Polk study. I'm a big fan of all of the turbocharged direct injected downsized engines that are out, along with better transmission options especially the 'dual-clutch' types, but would especially love to see more good turbodiesel engine options here like you can get in Europe. Would love to see something like a BMW 530d or 535d, for example. My wife might be picking up an X5 this year. Need to test drive, but the 35d is on the table.

stlgrym3

iTrader: (4)

great choices. the mpg difference between a prius and a i4 camry isn't worth extra money and the tradeoffs. i'm never a big fan of Hybrid from day one and still am. if i need a long distance commuter i'd get a Golf TDi and be done with it.

I8ABMR

I see your point. I think the green thing has become trendy as well as the increase in gas prices are making these cars desirable, but gas prices have frozen a bit recently and the break even point is to far out in my opinion. I like them because they are torquier than their non hybrid family members but still doesnt add up for me either......yet.

spwolf

apparently to you it is great as long as it is not hybrid... lol.

You parents are averaging 35 MPG on fuel tank? I bet they are not. You know nobody actually lives on the highway, and hybrid is faster than 4cly, considerably so, plus combined will be easily 8-10 mpg over 2.5cly.... and you get money back in 5 years when they sell it since it will be worth more than 4cly as well.

I dont get the idea to recommend TDI but not recommend hybrids.

Polk survey is rubish, Hybrid sales are at historically highest position ever, and Toyota alone will sell more than 1,000,000 hybrids this year.

RXGS

iTrader: (2)

I was thinking about hybrids, but i'm still averaging 25-28 mpg in my 01 es300 on the highway with 187k miles. While the gas mileage isn't great its hard to justify getting one for a few mpg increase for thousands of dollars more. That being said, if i lived in a city, a hybrid would be the only car i buy since i would be sitting in traffic or going under 20 mph most of the time anyways, and this is where hybrids really excel.

mmarshall

The most space-efficient vehicles are usually shoebox-shaped....along the lines of the Scion xB, Kia Soul, Nissan Cube, Subaru Forester, Ford Flex, etc..... The Germans actually don't make many vehicles with that kind of layout, at least in the American market. The VW Routan Minivan, which is space-efficient, is actually a redone Dodge Caravan. You might (?) be able to consider the Mercedes R-Class people-mover in a space-efficient class, but it is being pulled from the American market.


What "credit" is there in simply talking someone out of a hybrid? It's good, and I commend you, that you take the time and effort to help others with their car-shopping (I've done so, myself, for decades). And I can agree with you that some hybrids are overpriced and not a good buy, even with expensive gas at $4.00 a gallon. Depending on a number of factors, the hybrid's extra price usually won't be recovered, in better gas mileage, for several years at least. Hybrids, though, offer other advantages (tax-credits and HOW-use priviledges, for example, where applicable). But people buy hybrids (and decide to buy hybrids) for a number of different reasons, not just maximum gas-mileage. For example, surveys show that low-emissions, and making an environmental statement, is also important to a lot of hybrid-buyers. They have concerns about the environment (notwithstanding, of course, the problems in recyling used hybrid-batteries and the amount of energy used to actually generate electricity for plug-in-hybrids). But my point is that a lot of people want hybrids, are happy with them, buy them for reasons you and/or I might not agree with. The job of a auto-consultant (whether professional, voluntary, or free-lance), is to discuss with potential buyers the best overall vehicles for their needs and wants, the advantages and disadvantages of each one, and let them make the decision without us necessarily having to impose our views on them. After all, it is their money that is being spent, not ours, and they are the ones who will have to determine if they can live with that vehicle, day after day, for several years.


I'm in the D.C. area, too (Fairfax County). Trust me........everything sells in this area, not just hybrids. The fact that our traffic, in some ways, has gotten as bad as L.A.'s proves it.

LexFather

Well our family has gone from one to two, extended family has picked up hybrids and friends are picking them up. Again and for the 10 trillionith time hybrids are more than just about gas savings, there are multiple other features people enjoy hybrid ownership, including according to a recent study they are SAFER than non hybrids.

Again if we go with the "oh you have to drive 300,000 miles to recoup hybrid costs" than I ask you do the same thing with a non hybrid engine choice. Is that V-6 or V-8 worth it if you don't actually use the extra power? Is that I-4 going to be used for city/highway driving?

Also gas prices are only increasing, they are not flat, so theories on gas savings only favor hybrids (using that method).

Good points on street price. Some hybrids are hot commodities thus making negotiating tougher. They must be high in demand for a reason

mmarshall

Depends on why they are actually in demand. The Prius, of course, is known not only for great gas mileage, but the fact that it gets enormous hype from Hollywood, celebrities, college-professors, and environmentalists....not to mention the Obama Administrsaton itself. Just mention the word "Prius" in a Toyota shop, and the salespeople immediately get dollar-signs in their eyes from mark-up prospects. (I'm surprised they don't actually charge me for Prius test-drives/revews)

LexFather

Actually the Prius really caught fire with the Bush Administration and continues to do well under the Obama Administration. Actually the Bush Administration also had credits for hybrids more than Obama's administration. It doesn't need hype from anyone since the Prius is well known to most car buyers.

We know not all hybrids are successes like not all non hybrids are successes. To me and going forward for driving around I like hybrids and will continue to endorse them. I will never tell people and say non hybrids are silly or dumb like hybrid owners are told constantly.

mmarshall

True, but the hype, no doubt, vastly increased sales. If they are single, have a small family, or don't need to carry a whole lot, the first question many potential car-shoppers ask me is "What do you think of the Prius?" Like it or not, it has become the poster-child of the environmental auto-movement, especially considering that the Volt costs much more. The fact that there are three Prius versions now (regular, C, V, and with a plug-in model to come) only widens its appeal even moire.

LexFather

Could it also be b/c it combines better looks, cargo utility, features and a great price? Yes there are tons of people that buy it b/c its a "Prius" but to Toyota's credit the Prius is a damn good car, they are not relying on it being a "hybrid" just to sell like the biblically terrible Honda Insight (Clarkson quote ).

You always tell people to not get into stereotypes so why are we painting all Prius owners as "greenies"? There are a lot of hybrid owners that like the other aspects of the car just as much and a hybrid powertrain adds to the desirable package.

Again I'm not saying at all hybrids are the better car for everyone. However as a happy hybrid owner for over 3 years now and with my wife happy with hers we can add a perspective and we are not "greenies".

<VENOM>

Interesting thread, seems like my circle of family and friends is using high gas prices to negotiate killer deals on gas guzzler who take up space on dealer lots

mmarshall

I mostly agree, but, as I've stated before, I find the Prius body and interior-materials/design somewhat lacking. Some improvements in those areas were made in the newer V and C models.

I agree with Clarkson (though maybe he overstated it a bit) that the Insight, despite its high assembly-quality, was disappointing, but last couple of regular-Civic Hybrids were noticeably better than the Insight. The new Civic, though, is a step backwards.

I didn't mean to give that impression....sorry if I did. Prius owners, of course, cover a wide spectrum. But, stereotype or not, it's hard to deny the car's popularity with celebrities, the academic world, and environmentalists.....as with the VW Beetle and females.

Yes.....I tried to make that clear in my reply to the OP.

That's for sure.

LexFather

Thanks Mike.

Besides I always enjoy reading Steve's posts (the O.P). Glad to see him stop by from time to time.

2008GSh

I think I have had the opposite effect with my GS450h... Just about everyone who drives in it wants to shop a hybrid! My father who drives an IS, after driving my rocket ship... is Seriously considering trading in his IS on a 2013 GS 450h...

My wife is now talking about dumping her V8 4Runner (that gets 16 mpg) for a Highlander Hybrid...

Regardless of what BS Fox news is spewing out these days, my next car will definitely be another hybrid, hopefully a GS plug in, I love this technology.

5.2 Seconds to 60 AND I'm getting almost 28 MPG in the freaking CITY!