http://http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/...sis-in-Europe/

Interesting article.

 

Surprised the editorial is so critical of Lexus and its European marketing but he makes valid points.

 

it is not that complicated and it is not that simple either :-).

CT200h now has waiting lists in Europe and it has doubled Lexus sales in its first month.
Also, it is 27k for complete Europe.

Problem is high prices and lack of diesels.

CT200h is first one that solves that by providing frugal car (no, diesel that you change gears at 3500 rpm does not sing), and at very good price. This is why it is selling so well.

 

I've read tons of his editorials before and he just another European looking for a reason to bash Lexus and fap off to sport and not really investigate the problem. He doesn't mention the biggest problems actually and it ain't lack of sport.

1. Image. Europeans want the usual German status quo.
2. Corporate lease rates. 50% of the German cars sold in Germany are fleet. They tend to buy German and diesels. Which gets to my next point.
3. Lack of diesels. Lexus was pretty silly not having diesel until the IS 220d which is now the IS 200d and it ain't class leading. Thus Lexus is going to hybrids.
4. Hybrids. Still a growing market but still misunderstood and not preferred over a diesel.
5. Smaller dealer network. Lexus has done a poor job with dealership differentiation like they have done here and in other countries.
6. No base ****ty luxury cars. In Europe Lexus got no kudos for only offered large engines. They got some for having loaded cars and a better value ratio than the Germans. Well in Europe they like base ****ty luxury cars. They like cloth, they like no power windows and leathette and manuals and no options. Well Lexus rarely offers that.
7. Germans have multiple small hatches. This is Lexus first. The CT should double sales. The A1, A3, 1 series hatches, A class, B class all help with sales. Lexus doesn't offer a product in most those segments. The CT is the only one.
8. Lexus limited lineup. No coupes. One SUV. No IS 350. etc etc. The Germans have a much broader lineup. You can get the 3 series in around 44 different configurations in Europe!

Why no mention of the sportier IS and IS F which has gotten rave reviews by their own ****ing magazine? No mention of the LFA either which wipes the floor with any current German car.

He mentions Infinit and Caddy. Maybe that idiot should look at their sales? Caddy sold 2,000 cars and pulled out the market. I think Infiniti is around 3-4,000 or so. Both are way under targets.

The CT is not the traditional small hatch, like the CR-Z (which they seem to like better b/c it has a Honda badge) both are low power, high efficiency hybrids. So they are not diesels. Europe seems to be fine with 0-60 in 10 second hatchs but now its a problem? The CT also is pretty damn sporty so not sure why all of the sudden its bad to go sporty. I agree the ride is not plush, soft like a traditional Lexus but ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU ASKED FOR?!?!?

These mags and people are the ones with schizophrenia For 2 decades they harp on Lexus for being boring even though Lexus has offered sportier products in some models for years. Then when Lexus goes even sportier, they complain and say "why did Lexus do that, thats stupid, stay plush". The when Lexus stays plush with some models they say "why is Lexus still boring, why can't they get sportier".

Outside of the SC 300/400 every freaking Lexus today is far sportier stock for stock than the models in the 1990s. The CT, F-sport cars, IS F and clearly LFA are sporty. If anyone drives a 1999 RX and a 2011 RX back to back the driving difference is a revelation.

It seems to be real popular now for anyone to bash Lexus/Toyota for whatever reasons and I suppose its aftershocks with the bullcrap witch hunt from last year.

 

how long has lexus been in the european market?

they're still noobs, right?


i would think that if you want to take on the germans, you have to play their game.

offer the GS 180d.
ES 180d
LS180dL

then add some 2.0t's........... etc etc

the europeans like their cars big and slow, or small, slow, n peppy. right?

 

Haha dunnojack that was really funny. Best post of this thread so far

And you really make a good point lol. Hence this is why the S250 CDI is praised over there. For them, a high-end/full-size premium flagship sedan with a measly four-cylinder diesel motor is still considered as refined

 

Pretty much. The Article was just another way to beat up Lexus. If he really wanted to beat them up, he should have talked about my points.

Though I guess it would sound anti-enthusiast to tell Lexus to
1. Make little *** engines
2. Make small diesels that go 0-60 in 30 seconds
3. Make a 4 cylinder LS

etc etc etc

Imagine reading that, would have been funny. "Hey Lexus your cars are too fast and powerful stock, please sell 1.0 liter diesel engines to sell better here"!

 

Lexus is perfect the way it is, no need to change for those Europeans who just don't appreciate such fine vehicles. They could stick with their Audis and BMWs and keep replacing cars every few years, while our Lexus keep running healthy and strong after tw0 hundred thousand miles of servitude.

 

If you guys don't understand the European market, then please don't comment on it with silly claims.

The classic European luxury brands made a name for themselves during the Golden Age of the automobile through innovation, and racking up victory after victory in motorsport etc. This contributed to brand heritage and prestige. Lexus was absent from this era. There's an Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and VW museum that displays the history and heritage of these brands. A museum, especially a dedicated car museum, is a very powerful marketing tool, especially for a luxury brand. Lexus lacks the history and heritage, which dilutes its claim as a luxury brand in Europe. Yes, luxury brands in Europe need to stand for something and people here don't know what Lexus stands for. The fact that there are many classic Audi, BMW and Mercedes products still visible tells the common man on the street that these brands have been around for a long time. Yes, this might paint Europeans as badge *****s, but would you rather have a Rolex or a Seiko? That's the best analogy for Lexus in Europe. The Rolex is the original luxury watch, the Seiko is an imitation.

When Lexus started out in North America, many first-time-owners were loyal Toyota customers looking for something more luxurious and special. They got their wishes in the form of the LS400 and ES250.

In Europe, loyal Toyota buyers either stay with a Toyota product or they go to a European luxury brand - not Lexus. That's one of the biggest problems Lexus has in Europe. Other problems are the lack of efficient engines, no station wagons (for the IS and GS), no different trims, poor dealer distribution network, poor resale value and perhaps even bland design. Owning a Lexus in Europe means expensive fuel bills.

The IS is incredibly poorly positioned in Europe. You have a V6 IS250 that's slow and thirsty and you have an IS220d that's efficient yet can't be had with an automatic transmission option has had 2/3rds of its safety features removed - whereas the IS250 retains all of them. I don't understand the "logic" behind this move.

Another problem with Lexus is the lack of marketing. There is none. There are zero advertisements on TV and in magazines. The last few adverts I saw from Lexus were about the new RX450h. That's it. And I must say they weren't very good either.

There's no marketing for the CT, IS, IS-C, GS, LS and SC. And come to think of it, that's a pretty small and uncompetitive lineup when one looks at the big picture. The fact that Lexus is known for offering "fully loaded cars" has not made them more appealing to Europeans. Most people still want the option of selecting the features they want.

The CT200h is an improvement on the positioning of Lexus in Europe but the lack of a simple diesel or gasoline engine is not going to do it any favors. Hybrids are expensive in Europe and there are even diesels out there that can get similar fuel economy. The sport aspect is hyped up in this segment but it doesn't sell cars. Only the BMW 1er and A3 are the real sporty cars in this class and most people buy them for other reasons than handling. The real appeal of these cars are that they're small outside, huge inside, can be had with various engine choices, can be parked in crowded European cities with small parking spaces and they're from a premium brand. If you want sport here, you go for a BMW 130i 5-Door or an Audi S3 - and both those vehicles are rare.

Most European luxury cars come well-equipped from the factory by default with all the features most normal people will ever need. But Europeans like to customize and individualize their cars which is one reason why customers have the option of selecting the features they want. You don't really have that option with a Lexus.

Oh, and I've ridden in an S250 CDI recently when we visited a client. The big boss of the advertising agency I work for owns one. This man could easily have bought an S65 AMG but he didn't. His reasoning was simple. He doesn't need the excessive performance of the higher-end models. His previous car was a top-of-the-line Volkswagen Passat TDI, so he stepped up. The S250 CDI delivers great gas mileage and comes with all the goodies you can have in an S65 AMG. The refinement aspect? Completely amazing. You don't know you're riding in a diesel. The engine is smooth and silent and there are no vibrations. Ask most people what engine they think is powering this car and they've most definitely say a "petrol V6". At 210 kph (125 mph+) on the Autobahn the engine was still refined and quiet. In fact it was the wind noises which you could hear, not the engine. At the end of the day the S250 CDI is still an S class and whatever is under the hood is irrelevant if it's refined and powerful, which this engine clearly is. Every review of the car has been extremely surprised and positive about this engine.

The S250 CDI also makes sense for fleet or hotel taxi fleet sales where low running costs and fuel efficiency are far more important than what some 20 year-old boy racers on a Lexus forum think. If I were in the market for an S class, the S250 CDI makes more sense to me than an S350 CDI or S65 AMG. I get enough prestige in that I own and drive an S class and I could care less what some performance enthusiasts think about my choice. While they're worrying about finding the next gas station, I'm happily cruising along with a few hundred miles of range left.

I think most people here assume I am European, I am not. I'm an American that was raised on a diet of powerful engines. I have no qualms, absolutely none, with the performance of my BMW 118d or VW Golf 1.6. Yes, my Golf is a bit on the slow side, but it's reliable, fuel efficient and even comfortable. My BMW is agile and extremely fuel efficient. To me the BMW 118d I currently own is all the "luxury" I'll ever need. Even my ex-C200 CDI and E230 were completely adequate for my performance needs. I could merge and overtake without any problems and I sure as hell don't visit something silly like a drag strip where the 0-60 time of my car apparently proves how manly I am.

Most Europeans don't think like Americans and vice versa. Different cultures and mindsets. In fact, the most common rant I hear from Europeans about us are that we're a very wasteful nation in regards to energy. I have to sadly agree. Our cars back home are outlandishly huge and overpowered and for what? It's a mindset that's not doing the United States any favors in the long-run, like now for instance. Energy costs are rising, cars have to become more efficient yet the average American still demands power, power and even more power in his oversized pickup or full-size sedan. But that's another topic all together and I realize I'm going to get a lot of heat for these comments, but I feel that I have to say them. Living in Europe has taught me that life can still be enjoyable with smaller cars that are just as spacious (through intelligent design), practical and with the benefit of getting better gas mileage.

My closing comment is this. In Europe a luxury car is defined by the badge.The badge needs history and heritage. You just cannot enter the European luxury market with a brand that was created yesterday, even if you're technically competitive with the established players. The badge of that brand means nothing. It's empty and meaningless. To an extent this is the problem with Lexus in Europe.

 

I love Europe (and I love you Dustin, your European experience/American guy blend is really appreciated here) and clearly without the brands from there the automobile would not be where it is today but please spare me the Europe is Jesus claims. Not everything Europe makes or sells is golden and built with Thor's hands. Not everything Europe has done is what everyone else should do.

Its always funny to see people point out selective European history in regards to cars as if they only raced on the Nurburgring. The fact is one of their biggest claim to fame was the Beetle, the peoples car that Porsche spun off (and I won't bring up Hitler etc etc). Mercedes sold crappy entry level cars in the 1930s.

BMW almost went out of business and got bought out by Mercedes in the 1950s. What saved them? Small crappy econo cars.

Clearly it is impossible for Lexus to have the history of the Europeans and as I've stated, Europeans are even more snobbish in regards to brands than we are. That is why brands launch here, in the USA b/c for all the crap Americans get from Europeans, we will GIVE SOMEONE A CHANCE, whereas in Europe if you don't have the right badge you will struggle.

We agree on a lot of points (dealerships, marketing, engine choices) but I am not going to support a crappy 4 cylinder S class. That is insane. Its not even a hybrid. It seems Europeans are so caught up in badge, they forget to actually buy the rest of the car.

Lexus didn't just sell some 4 cylinder in Europe. Its a technologically advanced hybrid. That might fall on deaf Europeans who need to be enlighted again but its not just a small engine. Its an advanced car, more technologically advanced than anything else in its class. It also has the lowest emissions in class.

Again Gavin just wanted to complain about Lexus without really explaining to the reader the true reasons for their struggles. He never acknowledges how hard it is to crack this market and he fails to recognize that other brands have done far worse. Infiniti is so dumb they debut 20 years later with the same damn petrol engines Lexus tried to sell. IT DOES NOT WORK.

I think you summed it up for us well here thus Lexus and any other brand not German will struggle there

Maybe thats the problem with Europeans?

Dustin your input is appreciated and I hope to read your reply.

 

Lexus is fine the way it is. They should put more energy into other markets like the U.S. and Japan where they can sell more cars.

I'm sure they could do a lot better in Europe, but they obviously don't care that much to try that hard. It'd be hard to compete with the history that the German cars have anyway.

 

it is not perfect. lexus needs to adapt and grow and overcome its lack of prestige. that will take time.

lexus is a relatively young luxury brand. bmw and benz have had decades head start.




I'm pretty sure they care a lot about europe. They've had a lot going against it since 1990. they've only begun to overcome those obstacles in the last 10 years.

with bmw and benz world domination, i'm sure lexus is trying very hard. That's money on the table.

 

Dustin, it is not that simple.

1. Yes, Europeans are badge *****s.
2. But Lexus is still Lexus.
3. BMW/Audi has cheap cheap base versions with manual AC, cloth seats, 4cly engines, etc. It works well for buyers that just want Audi/BMW.
4. Lexus finally got it with CT and delivered reasonably affordable car, with reasonable equipment at reasonable price. Hence car is sold out for next 4 months already and is doubling Lexus sales in Europe.

They need to continue that in the future with IS and GS.

RX450h is Lexus best seller... It is crazy expensive because it comes equipped with a lot of features as base... BMW's does not... you have to pay for leather steering wheel with audio buttons.

But Lexus will not sell anywhere close to Audi numbers ever in Europe. They will never have as cheap cars, or as many dealers or local home market to rely on.

 

For instance... imagine Lexus GS220d... with 180hp, 6 speed manual and cloth seats.

Blasphemy? No, it is best selling 5 series in Europe.

 

Where do I claim that "everything Europe makes is gold"?

Your love for Lexus is admirable, but sometimes I feel you get "to emotional" defending your favorite brand. In no way was I trying to put Lexus down. I simply stated some opinions based on observation and facts of why I think Lexus is not finding ground in Europe.

What works in North America won't work in Europe and vice versa. Lexus was designed for the North American consumer, not the European. It's only logical that Lexus will succeed in North America while its European sales will be less than favorable. Lexus has done little to try and adapt their cars for Europe. That's the brutal truth. Luxury styles and expectations are different all across the globe. The European brands have adapted their cars to appeal to local tastes globally - Lexus has only recently been doing this for markets like China and very recently Europe (CT200h).



"Selective"? I didn't dive into specifics.

How do you know that the "economy cars" Mercedes' sold in the 1930s were "crappy"?

First of all, those "economy cars" were still out of reach for the common man. The "economy cars" Mercedes' sold in the '30s were failures from a sales point of view. The company made a name for themselves with their luxury, grand tourers, racing cars and aircraft engines as well as trucks and buses. Mercedes "economy cars" didn't really come to the market until the A and B classes - and those aren't really economy cars.

Second, Mercedes, like any other company, had to make a profit. Introducing more affordable cars to the market is a logical step. Branding and marketing in those days was different than it is today. Back then you could sell all sorts of vehicles under a single brand name. It worked.




Well guess what? That's part of their history and heritage.

The BMW Isetta is an iconic car, mind you. And you're forgetting something important. After World War II not many people in Europe could afford "real cars". This was still the era of three-wheelers and various bubble cars and even a Volkswagen Beetle was a very expensive product and out of reach of most people. Car brands had to adapt to the era and the BMW Isetta saved BMW. Ask most people of the time if they thought the Isetta was a "crappy little economy car" and the standard response you'll get is most likely: "No, it was a car that got me from A to B. It was one of the few luxuries I owned in those days."

Toyota nearly went out of business in the 1950s. What saved them? The United States Army and the Korean War. They built trucks for the United States Army. It's part of their history and heritage.




Let's be realistic here for a moment. It's not only the lack of pedigree that is affecting Lexus sales in Europe, it's the fact that they've not adapted to the European market.

The European brands have adapted their cars to the North American market for example. Americans wants power and features and the European brands react accordingly. In Europe people want the ability to customize their car with the features they want and they want to have a choice of engines so they can select the one they feel suits their needs best.

There are definitely a ton of people here that want to buy a Lexus and try something new. So what's keeping them from buying one? The lack of dealers, the lack of different trims and probably the top spot - the high fuel bills. Just because I can afford an LS460 doesn't mean I don't care about fuel economy, because I do. Many wealthy Europeans own big cars like an S class Mercedes or 7er BMW, but with an economical diesel engine. Oh yes, they could have bought an S500 or a 750i, but they want the car and less stops at the gas station - this is a literal generalization.

The lack of brand heritage is a problem, but it can be overcome through products that are actually competitive across the board. Lexus in Europe is simply not competitive as a brand. Individual cars can compete nicely with their German rivals, but only individual cars. A Lexus IS220d competes with a BMW 320d or MB C220 CDI, but where's the Lexus IS competitor to the say MB C350 or BMW 335i (IS350 is not sold here) or to the C250 CDI or BMW 325d? Where's the GS wagon that competes with the estates from the German brands? And where are the diesels?

Lexus has taken to heart some modern "misguided" American interpretations (that actually work in Europe) such as:

1) wagons are not luxurious
2) smaller engines are not luxurious
3) diesels are not luxurious or reliable because GM demonstrated that
4) cloth seats are not luxurious (in the 1940s and 1950s even Cadillac and Lincoln offered high quality cars with CLOTH SEATS)

Again, this all comes down to ADAPTING THE PRODUCT for specific markets. Lexus literally sells the same cars tailored for the American market globally - it's not the recipe for success if we're honest.




Again, the S250 CDI is not "crappy".

Let me ask you something. Have you driven an S250 CDI? Have you even experienced it? I have. It's an amazing car that doesn't sound or drive like a 4-cylinder diesel engine would be expected to drive. It's almost unreal how refined this car is. Yet the fact remains that it is a 4-cylinder engine that is powering this car. To me that's not a big deal. If I wanted an S class, I want an S class and I am not a performance nut. To me the features and luxury inside the car is far more important as is the comfort and safety. The benefit of the 4-cylinder diesel is the fuel economy - and it's certainly not slow. My boss drove the car in a sporty fashion and I was pleasantly surprised at the agility and response (you read that right) of the car.

You need to experience this car before making comments about it. Experiencing a car first-hand is where true opinions can be formed. Do you agree?

The S class has always been an innovative car in which ground-breaking technology has premiered. Do you agree? I think you do.

What we are seeing here is essentially a repeat of the late 1970s. The United States market received 5-cylinder turbodiesel Mercedes S classes with 115-horsepower. Yep, the flagship of Mercedes-Benz got a 5-cylinder turbodiesel engine. How do you think that sounded back then?

Performance by most accounts was modest, not slow, but modest (14 seconds 0-60 was "quick" for a diesel of that era) but the gas mileage was pretty impressive. That's what sold the car. The fuel economy and the fact that the car was an S class Mercedes. The turbodiesel S classes were a smashing sales success until about the early 1990s when gas prices stabilized and people began caring less about fuel economy again.

Today we have the S250 CDI, which has one cylinder less than those 1970s S class turbodiesels, yet is faster, more refined, more efficient and far more luxurious. What's the problem? It's a car for people who want an S class that gets good gas mileage. And in this day and age, with rising fuel prices, emissions regulations etc. it makes far more sense than an S550.



I agree that the CT200h is the most advanced car in its class, but that stunt doesn't work in Europe. I know that back home the "most advanced car" is a great way to increase sales, but not in Europe apparently. None of the big German three market their cars as "advanced". The A/B classes sell based on safety and interior space, the 1er is marketed as RWD and sporty and the A3 is presented as the only car that offers AWD in its class. All of these cars have efficient engine options as well as performance engines (A/B200 Turbo, 130i and S3 Sportback). This is where the appeal comes from - and the badges.

I have no problems with Lexus offering the CT200h as it is. It'll find buyers.

BUT - a plain and simple gasoline and diesel option, sans the hybrid setup, would also have been a safer choice for those people who don't want or need a hybrid. It would have guaranteed those "extra sales" to people who'd otherwise gone to a BMW dealership to tick the box on a 118d.

I've stated before that the Lexus CT200h is the only Lexus that I would want to own in Europe (the IS is to small for me). It's the perfect car for me and my wife (if she can get all her equipment in the back) but I personally would have preferred a simple gasoline or diesel engine upfront. I'm sure many Europeans feel the same way as I do about the CT200h and its engine setup.



I think Lexus has far more potential in Europe than Infiniti. The Infiniti lineup is even less competitive than Lexus. Infiniti is making the same mistake that Lexus has been doing for two decades in Europe and is only recently trying to correct.

Lexus simply needs to adapt their products to Europe. I cannot stress that enough. ADAPT. ADAPT the product for a specific market. It's been done before in the past and has worked. Even if Lexus doesn't have the impressive brand history of its rivals, it can appeal to people and compete with the right market adaptation.



The problem is split down 50-50. Half the fault belongs to Lexus for failing to understand the European market, half the fault lies with the European consumer, who is very nationalistic by nature, but also wants a product suited to their needs - which the European brands are clearly offering and Lexus isn't.

The CT200h is a great start, but it'll need more engine choices. That's possibly one of the biggest errors Lexus makes in the European market. Their cars have at most, two engine choices and in most cases these are overpowered and inefficient V6 or V8 engines. The Germans sells these types of engine to, but they also offer a whole range of efficient diesels and gasoline engines thus providing the market, and the consumer, with a selection of engines best suited to their needs.


I always enjoy a good argument. I am a very busy man, though, so my responses might be a bit late.