huge tax breaks for Leaf (rated at 99 MPG)
11-23-10, 05:54 AM
#47
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Plus, the old estimates were much more generous pre-2008.
(edit: Sorry to reiterate your post dj.ctwatt, typed it at the same time.
)
Last edited by -J-P-L-; 11-23-10 at 05:58 AM.
11-23-10, 06:47 AM
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No, because Chevron wouldn't allow it. Let's not forget who exactly has been sitting on that 120 miles per charge battery tech for the past 15 years. Now that Nissan has had to work around that patent, this is the best they could come up with apparently - or at least until they can turn a profit. When battery prices come down in a couple years they can add a larger, more powerful battery pack with a longer range.
11-23-10, 06:57 AM
#49
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No, because Chevron wouldn't allow it. Let's not forget who exactly has been sitting on that 120 miles per charge battery tech for the past 15 years. Now that Nissan has had to work around that patent, this is the best they could come up with apparently - or at least until they can turn a profit. When battery prices come down in a couple years they can add a larger, more powerful battery pack with a longer range.
according to the official conspiracy theory web site here:
GM and Chevron collaborated with Toyota-Panasonic in such a way that these batteries were killed
the patent also revolves around NiMH batteries, which are at the end of their road anyway.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 11-23-10 at 07:02 AM.
11-23-10, 07:05 AM
#50
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just read a bit more on that whacko page...
some free market.
A responsible president and prudent Congress could force Chevron to disgorge control of the batteries, and could force auto makers to produce a plug-in serial hybrid for sale on the free market.
11-23-10, 09:33 AM
#51
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yeah that's right, Chevron's blocking the entire global auto industry from producing cars with good fuel economy.
according to the official conspiracy theory web site here:
o'rly? Toyota was even involved in crippling the electic car biz? was that so they could make the prius successful? that's whacked.
the patent also revolves around NiMH batteries, which are at the end of their road anyway.
according to the official conspiracy theory web site here:
o'rly? Toyota was even involved in crippling the electic car biz? was that so they could make the prius successful? that's whacked.
the patent also revolves around NiMH batteries, which are at the end of their road anyway.
lol....EPA tags Nissan Leaf at 99 mpg, cuts range estimate
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency estimated that the Leaf, in kilowatts per hour, would use the same as 106 miles per gallon of gasoline in city driving and 92 miles per gallon in highway driving. Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn posed with the Leaf earlier this year in Tennessee.
Photo credit: Bloomberg
Lindsay Chappell November 22, 2010 - 4:51 pm ET
UPDATED: 11/22/10 6:15 p.m. ET
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NASHVILLE -- Nissan's electric Leaf sedan will display a fuel economy rating of 99 mpg when it goes on sale next month, even though the car uses no “gallons” and, indeed, no fuel in the traditional sense.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency approved the rating after months of research into how to compare a battery-powered electric to a traditional gas-burning car for the sake of consumer comparisons.
The battery-powered Leaf uses no gas or oil, and has no combustion engine or fuel tank.
The EPA also surprised Nissan North America Inc. officials by anointing the Leaf “best in class” for mid-sized vehicles, while saying the car's range is less than Nissan has stated.
Until now, Nissan has been presenting the Leaf as a compact vehicle. But the EPA measurement of the new model's passenger and trunk space bumped it into the mid-size category.
“We're happy to be considered a mid-sized car,” says Mark Perry, the Nissan North America product planning director for the Leaf. The larger segment means the electric Leaf will show up in shopping comparisons against more expensive competitor models, including the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord.
But the EPA's new data, which must be displayed on its Monroney vehicle window sticker, also indicates that the Leaf's battery range is lower than Nissan officials have been claiming publicly.
Nissan has said for more than a year that the Leaf will get up to 100 miles of driving on a full charge of its lithium-ion battery. But EPA testing has put the range at only 73 miles.
Perry said Nissan stands by its 80-100 mile battery range claims, and said he did not believe the EPA calculation will chill consumer enthusiasm for the car.
He said that battery range varies depending on driving conditions. High-speed highway driving and cold weather driving with a heater turned on drain the battery faster than low-speed driving in temperate climates.
He said the EPA test is biased toward highway driving and higher speeds, while the Leaf will be marketed more heavily to consumers for city commuting use. Nissan arrived at its own 80-100 mile range based on testing that used the so-called LA4 driving cycle test. That test is biased toward urban driving conditions and lower speeds.
He said that Leafs will feature a second window sticker from the Federal Trade Commission, which other alternative-power vehicles also display. The FTC sticker will tell consumers that the battery range is 96-110 miles.
“There is a range of ranges, based on driving behavior, temperature, speed and other issues,” Perry said of the difference between the FTC and EPA estimates.
“The car does 100 miles on the LA4 test. Nothing has changed. There are just different drive cycles. The challenge is get one repeatable cycle to represent the average driver, and that's hard.”
The Leaf goes on sale next month is five states. The announced retail price is $25,280, after a federal tax refund of $7,500 is figured into the purchase.
Nissan expects to expand the launch nationwide over the next six months.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...#ixzz167zWxBXi
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency estimated that the Leaf, in kilowatts per hour, would use the same as 106 miles per gallon of gasoline in city driving and 92 miles per gallon in highway driving. Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn posed with the Leaf earlier this year in Tennessee.Photo credit: Bloomberg
Lindsay Chappell November 22, 2010 - 4:51 pm ET
UPDATED: 11/22/10 6:15 p.m. ET
Print Email Reprints 15 comments
Recommend (1)
>> Send us a Letter to the Editor
Follow Automotive News
NASHVILLE -- Nissan's electric Leaf sedan will display a fuel economy rating of 99 mpg when it goes on sale next month, even though the car uses no “gallons” and, indeed, no fuel in the traditional sense.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency approved the rating after months of research into how to compare a battery-powered electric to a traditional gas-burning car for the sake of consumer comparisons.
The battery-powered Leaf uses no gas or oil, and has no combustion engine or fuel tank.
The EPA also surprised Nissan North America Inc. officials by anointing the Leaf “best in class” for mid-sized vehicles, while saying the car's range is less than Nissan has stated.
Until now, Nissan has been presenting the Leaf as a compact vehicle. But the EPA measurement of the new model's passenger and trunk space bumped it into the mid-size category.
“We're happy to be considered a mid-sized car,” says Mark Perry, the Nissan North America product planning director for the Leaf. The larger segment means the electric Leaf will show up in shopping comparisons against more expensive competitor models, including the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord.
But the EPA's new data, which must be displayed on its Monroney vehicle window sticker, also indicates that the Leaf's battery range is lower than Nissan officials have been claiming publicly.
Nissan has said for more than a year that the Leaf will get up to 100 miles of driving on a full charge of its lithium-ion battery. But EPA testing has put the range at only 73 miles.
Perry said Nissan stands by its 80-100 mile battery range claims, and said he did not believe the EPA calculation will chill consumer enthusiasm for the car.
He said that battery range varies depending on driving conditions. High-speed highway driving and cold weather driving with a heater turned on drain the battery faster than low-speed driving in temperate climates.
He said the EPA test is biased toward highway driving and higher speeds, while the Leaf will be marketed more heavily to consumers for city commuting use. Nissan arrived at its own 80-100 mile range based on testing that used the so-called LA4 driving cycle test. That test is biased toward urban driving conditions and lower speeds.
He said that Leafs will feature a second window sticker from the Federal Trade Commission, which other alternative-power vehicles also display. The FTC sticker will tell consumers that the battery range is 96-110 miles.
“There is a range of ranges, based on driving behavior, temperature, speed and other issues,” Perry said of the difference between the FTC and EPA estimates.
“The car does 100 miles on the LA4 test. Nothing has changed. There are just different drive cycles. The challenge is get one repeatable cycle to represent the average driver, and that's hard.”
The Leaf goes on sale next month is five states. The announced retail price is $25,280, after a federal tax refund of $7,500 is figured into the purchase.
Nissan expects to expand the launch nationwide over the next six months.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...#ixzz167zWxBXi
11-23-10, 09:48 AM
#52
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He said the EPA test is biased toward highway driving and higher speeds, while the Leaf will be marketed more heavily to consumers for city commuting use. Nissan arrived at its own 80-100 mile range based on testing that used the so-called LA4 driving cycle test. That test is biased toward urban driving conditions and lower speeds.
The people who can reasonably park and charge such a car are living in the suburbs where they need to take a highway to work.
11-23-10, 10:01 AM
#53
Thinking about it, it's not economical at all. Since you'd have to recharge every 80-100 miles they estimate your total for the year is $561. Now I drive about 3x that distance if not more before I fill up. Using the FuelEconomy.gov calculator and basing the gas price on $3 average, and 12k miles a year with an average of 21mpg in my car, my total cost would be $1714. Now assuming that all else is equal, if you multiply that $561 x 3 equating to approximately the same distance as I put on my car yearly, the total cost to 'charge' that car up would be $1683. It's barely cheaper to use the all electric car as opposed to my gas car for the applications that I use. Now I know it would be different for everyone, but still, it's a sham that they say it's soooo economical.
11-23-10, 10:17 AM
#54
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Not to mention that you almost have to own a second car to satisfy the American lifestyle. Either that, or count on renting a car every time you want to take a trip more than 50 miles away (assuming you need to get back without first recharging). Those such trips come very often.
Sorry, I cannot be convinced. That's why GM took a winning approach, at least in concept. You have to have unlimited range. Where the Volt suffers initially, is price.
Sorry, I cannot be convinced. That's why GM took a winning approach, at least in concept. You have to have unlimited range. Where the Volt suffers initially, is price.
11-23-10, 11:55 AM
#55
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Not to mention that you almost have to own a second car to satisfy the American lifestyle. Either that, or count on renting a car every time you want to take a trip more than 50 miles away (assuming you need to get back without first recharging). Those such trips come very often.
Sorry, I cannot be convinced. That's why GM took a winning approach, at least in concept. You have to have unlimited range. Where the Volt suffers initially, is price.
Sorry, I cannot be convinced. That's why GM took a winning approach, at least in concept. You have to have unlimited range. Where the Volt suffers initially, is price.
true, I'd take the Volt over the Leaf any day -- but the Volt is $32K.
....but I honestly can't remember when I last drove over 70 miles in one day....I fly everywhere I can (cheap date...TSA rip)
11-23-10, 12:20 PM
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My wife drives a 100 mile commute every day. I used to too, but most recently 60 miles a day. And most weeks we go somewhere that is 50-100 miles round trip. And at least a couple of times a year we cross through a couple of states for snowboarding trips, ect.
Quick question, why do you have a Prius if you don't drive much? Nothing wrong with that, just wondering.
11-23-10, 12:33 PM
#58
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The lowest cost to own cars in the US is Yaris, Accent, Aveo, Versa, Rio, Mazda2, base Fiesta sedan, & non sport Fit.
The cheapest hybrids still cost $20K and up. You can buy the mentioned cars for as low as $10K ranging to $14K on the low spec range. And they average around 34-40mpg.
11-23-10, 12:58 PM
#59
Anyway, I don't like the tax incentives for this or any other "green" car. People should drive it because they WANT to, not because their purchase is being subsidized. I also don't like the fact that this potentially already hurts the manufacturers because as soon as those incentives dry up people may not be willing to pay the full price of these cars w/o any sort of incentives. Realistically, the person that has the $$$$ to buy these cars anywhere near sticker really isn't buying it because they are saving tons of money on fuel costs or anything like that. They are buying it because they like and they CAN.
11-23-10, 01:50 PM
#60
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I only paid $18.8K for my (used) Prius, so IMO its well worth it....I needed a 4 door car so I figured I might as well get something that gets great MPG, quiet comfy cruiser...my wife has a Audi TT that we usually drive on weekends.