DI FTW: GM unveils new direct-injection 2.4L EcoTec and 3.0L V6
12-22-08, 09:53 AM
#31
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If you guys want to talk about an impressive direct injection engine from GM, for the last 2.5 years the Saturn Sky Redline and Pontiac Solstice GXP have been out with their 2.0 I4 turbo w/ direct injection. It's called the LNF... 260hp, 260tq, 22 city, 31 highway.
Kinda makes Audi's 200hp 2.0t look silly by comparison. I'm saying that and I owned an 06 A4 2.0t.
Kinda makes Audi's 200hp 2.0t look silly by comparison. I'm saying that and I owned an 06 A4 2.0t.
12-22-08, 11:04 AM
#32
Actually, come to think about it, hp per liter really isn't that pointless since that's one way (read: not the only way) to tell the efficiency of an engine.
12-22-08, 11:10 AM
#33
Horsepower per liter is a revealing statistic for an engine's ability to make higher power levels with less displacement. Some people take it out of context. It is an indication of what the overall power-curve may be like with the engine.
Now, peak torque is about as pointless of a statistic as horsepower per valve or horsepower per door or horsepower per turbo. Often quoted by V8 dorks that are feeling emasculated by the turbo 6 that just blew their doors off. 99.999% of the people out there don't even know what torque and horsepower actually are other than some numbers in their favorite car magazine.
Now, peak torque is about as pointless of a statistic as horsepower per valve or horsepower per door or horsepower per turbo. Often quoted by V8 dorks that are feeling emasculated by the turbo 6 that just blew their doors off. 99.999% of the people out there don't even know what torque and horsepower actually are other than some numbers in their favorite car magazine.
12-22-08, 12:24 PM
#36
Lexus Champion
Fuel mileage doesn't have a direct or even consistent positive correlation with displacement... especially when compared across dissimilar vehicles.
If you're saying having more peak horsepower per liter is more efficient, I say tell me why. If you tell me that the Corvette LS3 is "inefficient" because it's "only (peak) 70hp per liter" whereas the Ferrari F430 is "efficient" because it's 117hp per liter. It's meainingless in the context of efficiency because it's not inefficient to use a higher displacement design... it's simply one way of doing about engine design. Why can't I turn around and say the Ferrari F430 is "inefficient" because it only makes 15 horsepower per valve or 125 horsepower per cam whereas the Vette LS3 makes 27 horsepower per valve or 218 horsepower per cam?
It makes just as much sense, which is to say it makes no sense.
It is an indication of what the overall power-curve may be like with the engine.
It would really just be a whole lot more meaningful than all of these snap-shot statistics if magazines and manufacturers would just stick to giving us full rpm power curves. Enough with peak torque rating at xxxx rpm and peak horsepower at xxxxx rpm and horsepower per liter of displacement, etc. A simple short graph would give us 100x more useful information without any assumptions or 'mays' or 'efficiencies' required.
12-22-08, 12:28 PM
#37
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Most engines designed specifically to run on regular gas will not see any power gain from using premium, whereas most engines designed specifically to run on premium, but 'capable' of running on regular simply use a knock/ignition sensor to realize that predetonation is occurring and scale back the spark advancement/timing just a tad until it goes away, thus reducing the power.
12-22-08, 09:57 PM
#38
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GT-R. 'Nuff said.
Yet to see a hybrid from the Germans
4-door race car? You meant the M3, C63 and RS4? First of all, they are not "race cars", they are high performance sports sedans. Second, there is the IS F, you can argue all you want on how IS F is not a competitor to the M, AMG and RS but auto magazines/shows all over the world compare the IS F to its German counterparts and it stacks up well as the first attempt.
Yet to see a hybrid from the Germans
4-door race car? You meant the M3, C63 and RS4? First of all, they are not "race cars", they are high performance sports sedans. Second, there is the IS F, you can argue all you want on how IS F is not a competitor to the M, AMG and RS but auto magazines/shows all over the world compare the IS F to its German counterparts and it stacks up well as the first attempt.
as for the germans not having hybrids
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02...hium-ion-hybr/
better late than never
12-22-08, 09:59 PM
#39
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Source please?
When you get the source why don't you correct the Wikipedia...
Because the Japanese understand what the mainstream customers want and what the luxury buyers want unlike the VW. People who are buying the Camry, Accord, Altima and Fusion aren't looking for the ultimate performance, they are looking for backseat room, head room, safety, smoothness, decent performance, reliability and value. In other words, they are looking for a perfect "compromised" car. The Passat is great but let's face it, it is not a mainstream car and that's why people are usually reluctant to compare it with the usual suspects.
Personally I really don't give a **** about turbo because my philosophy is always: if there are two comparable engines, one FI and one NA, I'll always take the NA one. less parts in the engine bay means less headaches down the road.
When you get the source why don't you correct the Wikipedia...
Because the Japanese understand what the mainstream customers want and what the luxury buyers want unlike the VW. People who are buying the Camry, Accord, Altima and Fusion aren't looking for the ultimate performance, they are looking for backseat room, head room, safety, smoothness, decent performance, reliability and value. In other words, they are looking for a perfect "compromised" car. The Passat is great but let's face it, it is not a mainstream car and that's why people are usually reluctant to compare it with the usual suspects.
Personally I really don't give a **** about turbo because my philosophy is always: if there are two comparable engines, one FI and one NA, I'll always take the NA one. less parts in the engine bay means less headaches down the road.
12-22-08, 10:13 PM
#40
Sure wikipedia isn't the ultimate source but it is a good place to look up something quick.
As for the so-called "4-door race car", how's that the M5, RS6, E63 and CTS-V are but not the IS F? Because it's smaller? I don't get it...
If you want to say something like the Lexus' F can't be compete with with the M, AMG and RS then that's something we can debate in another place. However, to say that the M5, RS6, E63 and CTS-V are your so-called "4-door race car" and the IS F isn't then I am sorry, you are flat out wrong here.You are right and I was wrong, the S400 BlueHybrid is indeed a German hybrid, although a mild one that features a start-stop function and regenerative braking.
12-22-08, 10:21 PM
#41
You basically just said "horsepower per liter is a revealing indicator of an engine's horsepower per liter".
May be like... sure. But 'may' is a pretty soft word. There's all sorts of variables that could throw a wrench in any such sort of assumption.
It would really just be a whole lot more meaningful than all of these snap-shot statistics if magazines and manufacturers would just stick to giving us full rpm power curves. Enough with peak torque rating at xxxx rpm and peak horsepower at xxxxx rpm and horsepower per liter of displacement, etc. A simple short graph would give us 100x more useful information without any assumptions or 'mays' or 'efficiencies' required.
I agree, I'd like more information from magazines, but my post was in assuming the status quo was not changing. Most of the kids on here don't understand what acceleration really is outside of how fast a car's 0-60 time. I definitely know that a lot of variables can change it up easily; but MOST of the time, they don't.
Peak horsepower and 0-60 times sell magazines.
12-23-08, 10:48 AM
#43
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Exactly. Like I said, if anyone of y'all think wikipedia is wrong then go ahead and edit/correct it.
Sure wikipedia isn't the ultimate source but it is a good place to look up something quick.
As for the so-called "4-door race car", how's that the M5, RS6, E63 and CTS-V are but not the IS F? Because it's smaller? I don't get it... If you want to say something like the Lexus' F can't be compete with with the M, AMG and RS then that's something we can debate in another place. However, to say that the M5, RS6, E63 and CTS-V are your so-called "4-door race car" and the IS F isn't then I am sorry, you are flat out wrong here.
You are right and I was wrong, the S400 BlueHybrid is indeed a German hybrid, although a mild one that features a start-stop function and regenerative braking.
Sure wikipedia isn't the ultimate source but it is a good place to look up something quick.
As for the so-called "4-door race car", how's that the M5, RS6, E63 and CTS-V are but not the IS F? Because it's smaller? I don't get it...
If you want to say something like the Lexus' F can't be compete with with the M, AMG and RS then that's something we can debate in another place. However, to say that the M5, RS6, E63 and CTS-V are your so-called "4-door race car" and the IS F isn't then I am sorry, you are flat out wrong here.You are right and I was wrong, the S400 BlueHybrid is indeed a German hybrid, although a mild one that features a start-stop function and regenerative braking.
12-23-08, 11:23 AM
#44
Nobody is calling the IS-F a non competitor...please go quote where that was mentioned anywhere but in your own posts. I understand you want to change the subject to that, but in reality the IS-F is a genuine competitor to some of the vehicles you mentioned above (not the 5/A6/E, Toyota hasn't gotten there yet). The entire point is that Lexus is behind the curve with the car, late to the game. The IS-F is a direct answer to a segment pioneered and built on German cars. Toyota, Lexus, and the Japanese had nothing to do with this market development. They literally jumped in head first last year, and did quite well.
I don't get why you guys are arguing who came first. Who cares? As long as they keep competing for consumers, we win. Albeit some companies are being a bit boring. Hopefully those companies come around when they realize that their safe image doesn't appeal to everyone.
12-23-08, 11:35 AM
#45
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Guys let's get this thread back on track about the GM motors and away from the college term paper and German vs Japan topics. Thanks.