DI FTW: GM unveils new direct-injection 2.4L EcoTec and 3.0L V6
12-21-08, 11:42 PM
#16
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Strait to Wikipedia I see when your knowledge is a little cloudy.
It's a fact that Volkswagen engineers debuted the 2.0TFSI in late 2000.
When Toyota's "direct injection" technology starts to trickle down into their mainstream cars, maybe then you'll have a valid argument. Until then, the technology has been furthered by the Germans. Direct injection is standard in every GTI, Jetta GLI, Passat, Tiguan, Touareg, A3, A4, A6, A8, R8. The only motor you can find without direct injection is the 5cyl model in a regular Rabbit/Jetta. Virtually every new engine from the VW/Audi group has been a direct injection powertrain over the last few years. I mean, one engine from Lexus can't overcome the immense deficit they have releative to VW Audi Group. That's not completely out of line, when you have Honda having none, and GM just starting to trickle them out. The only point to be made is that the Germans are, yet again, at the forefront of releasing new technology, which the rest of the automotive world will catch onto in the coming years (like rear side airbags, unavailable on every mainstream Japanese and American car). This constant innovation comes with a price: reliability/cost of ownership.
It's a fact that Volkswagen engineers debuted the 2.0TFSI in late 2000.
When Toyota's "direct injection" technology starts to trickle down into their mainstream cars, maybe then you'll have a valid argument. Until then, the technology has been furthered by the Germans. Direct injection is standard in every GTI, Jetta GLI, Passat, Tiguan, Touareg, A3, A4, A6, A8, R8. The only motor you can find without direct injection is the 5cyl model in a regular Rabbit/Jetta. Virtually every new engine from the VW/Audi group has been a direct injection powertrain over the last few years. I mean, one engine from Lexus can't overcome the immense deficit they have releative to VW Audi Group. That's not completely out of line, when you have Honda having none, and GM just starting to trickle them out. The only point to be made is that the Germans are, yet again, at the forefront of releasing new technology, which the rest of the automotive world will catch onto in the coming years (like rear side airbags, unavailable on every mainstream Japanese and American car). This constant innovation comes with a price: reliability/cost of ownership.
12-21-08, 11:42 PM
#17
Yet to see a hybrid from the Germans
4-door race car? You meant the M3, C63 and RS4? First of all, they are not "race cars", they are high performance sports sedans. Second, there is the IS F, you can argue all you want on how IS F is not a competitor to the M, AMG and RS but auto magazines/shows all over the world compare the IS F to its German counterparts and it stacks up well as the first attempt.
12-21-08, 11:47 PM
#18
Sure my knowledge on DI is cloudy just like your knowledge on the whole auto industry is cloudy except regarding your beloved VW/Audi. If the Wikipedia is wrong then why don't you correct it? Oh and umm... do you mind to show a source to where does it state that VW debute the 2.0TFSI on a "mainstream" car? When you said "It's a fact that Volkswagen engineers debuted the 2.0TFSI in late 2000." I am assuming that engine was debuted on a production car right? Not on some concepts which only the VW engineers get to play with it in the lab.
12-21-08, 11:49 PM
#20
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Passat. $25,000
There you are, a direct injection turbo powerplant that most anybody can actually..afford.
Could just as easily say I have yet to see a turbo diesel from the Japanese. And guess which one is more fun to drive. Hint: it's not the electric car. I am the first person to give Toyota and Honda kudos on the furthering of gas mileage in this application, it was innovation, and it was a good thing. Fun to drive and performance oriented it was not. Of course the Germans would choose the route that satisfies virtually the same mileage outcome and performance factor.
The IS F was a direct answer to German performance. That's the point. Germans innovate, Japan follows. It's not some sort of folk tale - it's more or less the truth. Everything from Safety systems (ABS/ESP, etc), stupid electronics, engine technology (direct injection
), etc..
There you are, a direct injection turbo powerplant that most anybody can actually..afford.
Could just as easily say I have yet to see a turbo diesel from the Japanese. And guess which one is more fun to drive. Hint: it's not the electric car. I am the first person to give Toyota and Honda kudos on the furthering of gas mileage in this application, it was innovation, and it was a good thing. Fun to drive and performance oriented it was not. Of course the Germans would choose the route that satisfies virtually the same mileage outcome and performance factor.
4-door race car? You meant the M3, C63 and RS4? First of all, they are not "race cars", they are high performance sports sedans. Second, there is the IS F, you can argue all you want on how IS F is not a competitor to the M, AMG and RS but auto magazines/shows all over the world compare the IS F to its German counterparts and it stacks up well as the first attempt.
), etc..
12-21-08, 11:53 PM
#21
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Sure my knowledge on DI is cloudy just like your knowledge on the whole auto industry is cloudy except regarding your beloved VW/Audi. If the Wikipedia is wrong then why don't you correct it? Oh and umm... do you mind to show a source to where does it state that VW debute the 2.0TFSI on a "mainstream" car? When you said "It's a fact that Volkswagen engineers debuted the 2.0TFSI in late 2000." I am assuming that engine was debuted on a production car right? Not on some concepts which only the VW engineers get to play with it in the lab.
I do not see the Camry, Accord, Altima, Fusion sporting direct injection powerplants, much less turbo direct injection. I also don't see them offering rear side airbags.
12-21-08, 11:55 PM
#22
The IS F was a direct answer to German performance. That's the point. Germans innovate, Japan follows. It's not some sort of folk tale - it's more or less the truth. Everything from Safety systems (ABS/ESP, etc), stupid electronics, engine technology (direct injection ), etc..
), etc..Japanese are not the innovators? I got one word for you buddy... Hybrids.
12-21-08, 11:58 PM
#23
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see post 20 for my comments on hybrids.
12-22-08, 12:02 AM
#24
When you get the source why don't you correct the Wikipedia...
Personally I really don't give a **** about turbo because my philosophy is always: if there are two comparable engines, one FI and one NA, I'll always take the NA one. less parts in the engine bay means less headaches down the road.
12-22-08, 12:23 AM
#26
By the way, since we are talking about DI here, let's do an apple-to-apple comparison:
Audi 3.2 V6 FSI (A4) vs. Lexus 3.5 V6 2GR-FSE (IS350), both are V6, both are NA, both use DI and both are in the entry level luxury sedans, it just can't get more apple-to-apple than this...
Hp per liter: 82.81 (Audi 3.2 V6 FSI), 87.43 (Lexus 2GR-FSE)
Torque per liter: 75.94 lb-ft (Audi 3.2 V6 FSI), 79.14 lb-ft (Lexus 2GR-FSE)
I am done...
Audi 3.2 V6 FSI (A4) vs. Lexus 3.5 V6 2GR-FSE (IS350), both are V6, both are NA, both use DI and both are in the entry level luxury sedans, it just can't get more apple-to-apple than this...
Hp per liter: 82.81 (Audi 3.2 V6 FSI), 87.43 (Lexus 2GR-FSE)
Torque per liter: 75.94 lb-ft (Audi 3.2 V6 FSI), 79.14 lb-ft (Lexus 2GR-FSE)
I am done...
Now you both hate me.
12-22-08, 06:13 AM
#28
Lexus Champion
Horsepower per liter is about as pointless of a statistic as horsepower per valve or horsepower per door or horsepower per turbo. It's a completely meaningless argument that was popularized with the ricer crowd as basically the only way they could feel superior driving around in their hopped up civics while stock muscle cars were eating their lunch.
They'd try and point out how many more liters of displacement the other guys had.
Yeah? So what? What difference does it make, especially if the larger displacement engine gets the same or better fuel economy as well??
Getting back to the topic, this is great. This is FAR from GM's first direct injection application so I don't know why people are acting like this is GM finally getting into the game.
It it however by far the most fuel efficient non hybrid SUV in its class... and has some decent power on tap, too.
They'd try and point out how many more liters of displacement the other guys had.
Yeah? So what? What difference does it make, especially if the larger displacement engine gets the same or better fuel economy as well??
Getting back to the topic, this is great. This is FAR from GM's first direct injection application so I don't know why people are acting like this is GM finally getting into the game.
It it however by far the most fuel efficient non hybrid SUV in its class... and has some decent power on tap, too.
12-22-08, 06:44 AM
#29
4-door race car? You meant the M3, C63 and RS4? First of all, they are not "race cars", they are high performance sports sedans. Second, there is the IS F, you can argue all you want on how IS F is not a competitor to the M, AMG and RS but auto magazines/shows all over the world compare the IS F to its German counterparts and it stacks up well as the first attempt.
I'm sure the Germans make great vehicles but it scares me to hear about the electrical horror stories of VWs. Great technology just wouldn't keep a German car after warranty.
12-22-08, 07:43 AM
#30
Lexus Champion
If you guys want to talk about an impressive direct injection engine from GM, for the last 2.5 years the Saturn Sky Redline and Pontiac Solstice GXP have been out with their 2.0 I4 turbo w/ direct injection. It's called the LNF... 260hp, 260tq, 22 city, 31 highway.
Kinda makes Audi's 200hp 2.0t look silly by comparison. I'm saying that and I owned an 06 A4 2.0t.
Kinda makes Audi's 200hp 2.0t look silly by comparison. I'm saying that and I owned an 06 A4 2.0t.