DrUnBiased

Correction: This time last year, Acura was rolling out the 2008 models. Production was at full steam. Using your theory, that would mean that people wanted a TL but couldn't get one because of supply and that's why the sales were what it was last year, which is simply not true. I don't think any manufacturer, let alone Acura, starts to reduce production a whole year before the release of the new model. Production usually stops around 3-4 months before the new model is released.

I think JLSC4's point was that the TL had the least amount of a drop in sales. Yeah, it's a new model. But in this economy, having the least amount of lost sales is about as good as the news can get these days. I'm sure the sales involve left over 2008's also. The A4 which is new like the TL had an almost 33% drop in sales just for comparison, even with 2.9% financing and Zero down drive-off lease deals. 2008 sales included also, of course.

-J-P-L-

Last November, dealers had way more '08 TL's available than they had '09's this year. And we've been sold out of '08's since mid-Sepetember as were many other dealers.

ffpower,

Your arguments make no sense. Your suggesting that even if we were in a full blown depression, a model should be up in sales because it was just redesigned.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Interesting you point out the A4. It's the best A4 ever, and looks great and is still down 33%.

LexFather

That is not what I said or meant. Last year was the last full production model of the TL. Now the last gen sold very well every year, however production I am sure was scaled back b/c well, it was the last year and Honda is a pretty smart company when it comes to inventory control.

I am not saying at all the TL sold poorly last year. What I am saying is to compare the last year of an old model to a new one year over year is ridiculous (not just Honda but anyone) as the new model is SUPPOSED to outsell it. Just like someone saying the new LX is selling 300% better than the last one. No crap. So you are basically fudging numbers here. "The new TL only sold 25% less than last time". Well it wasn't exactly selling last November. This is a model that sells over 5k a month on avg (70k+ a year).

What truly TRULY frightens me is the Acura design team and the entire team behind the new TL will completely blame the economy for its slow sales and not;
-how ugly it is
-the interior while well built, looks like an accords
-the higher price
-the much bigger size
-how ugly it is

The new TL seems aimed at a new buyer. I've predicted 4 out of the last 5 new Acuras will fail, the one not failing is the MDX. As someone pointed out amazingly, the older RX is outselling the MDX near 2-1 or 2-1?

nabbun

ROFL you got me. I just LOL'ed in da office

What I don't get is why Acura overreacted so damn much when some ppl said the last gen TL was "vanilla-plain"

what they got now is yuck

LexFather

Well I can give credit to Acura for trying to find some design language or trying to create a corporate face. For the most part Acura and Mazdas shared the same 5 point grill and most Acuras can be easily confused with Hondas and outside the last gen TL, were not particularly handsome.

We saw with BMW how they went with revolutionary styling and "he look at me" styling. Well BMW has/had 2 things going for it;
1. Its a BMW, no matter how ugly, slow, decontented, people buy it. BMW has that cache and prestige where people simply want to be associated with it and say "I have a BMW". Bangle put this to the test and well, BMW sell better than ever with an expanded lineup.
2. The economy and the times were very "bling, showy, hey LOOK AT ME". This is also evidenced as white, a very bright "look at me" color became the most popular car color. Out was subtle and classy, in was BLAM, huge grills and shiny chrome. BMWs new style was perfect for this time.
3. BMWs actually offer the technology, trannies, engines to back up their bold, brash styling. If you are going to stick your chest out, you better be strong! BMWs have very powerful engines as options, thus they can back up their styling. "Is that a V-6"? No its a V-8, or V-10. This car backs up what it looks like.

1. Well lets look at Acura. Their brand does not command much prestige where people happily lineup to pay for them. They are an entry level brand and most owners are Honda owners moving up. They should not have went with risky styling as people will simply drop the brand for better styling.

2. Now we witness the economy WORLDWIDE plummet, this is not the time to be a show-off, blingly or "hey look at me". This comes from two sides
a-people with money do not want to flaunt it in front of others since not everyone is getting money
b-people without money will resent things and people that show-off and attract attention

The last thing Acura needs now is a giant bling plastic chrome aluminum grill and styling that says "hey I'm trying to get some attention here". Their previous subdued styling would have been PERFECT for these new times.

3. Acura's cars are getting bigger and bolder with the same old engines and trannies. Saying your most powerful Acura ever has 305hp is pretty laughable when 300hp is nothing. 10 years ago, it was saying something. Today, its near average in the luxury field. Not to mention non luxury brands with more power. Has anyone looked at a TSX? Its huge compared to the last model, with a tiny engine. You open the hood and there is space for a TT V-10 with hybrid batteries Acura is not backing up its styling (Outside of maybe SH-AWD, which a driver will rarely use).

I'll say it again. The superb team that designed and created the last gen TL (This was an AMERICAN team in Cali) should be in charge of the ENTIRE BRAND. Imagine Acuras all looking like last gen TL's?

DrUnBiased

To me, it still sounds like you are saying that this time last year, the TL was production-limited as far as sales go. You said that the TL numbers were already low last year and thats why the TL doesn't have as big of a drop this year, because production was scaled back. I don't understand what else you could mean when you say this other then the TL's sales were production limited last year, which is simply not true. Maybe you can explain it a bit differently to me.

FKL

This argument is built on sand and I'm here to knock it down. This doesn't even remotely make any logical sense. You are the only one spinning it like it's never been spun - The economy is in a recession yet you refuse to even admit that it's a possible reason that sales are down.

Laughable, laughable argument you have here. Come back with something a little less bias and perhaps based more in reality as opposed to this ridiculous fantasy. Thanks

ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I am the bias one here...

LexFather

Tl sales November

2008-3160
2007-4064
2006-5439
2005-6134
2004-5839

As you can see from 2004-2006, the TL averaged 5804 sales in November.
2007 had a huge drop, to 4064. So the TL was ALREADY down 25.3% last year.
So now to argue "well its only down 22% this year" does not paint an accurate picture here. Looking at how the TL used to average 5804 a month, well 3160 is a tremendous drop.
1. November sales are still including 2008 models. We had a thread showing they are in the top 5 incentives for buyers as Acura tries to clear them out.
2. Acura only sold 3160 TLs total in November. Acura themselves stated sales goals are STILL 70k a year for the new TL.

It is clear the new TL is failing. 80% will be FWD and 20% AWD, so its not too much of a pricing issue (IMO 40k is Acura's ceiling) as most of the cars sold will be FWD, the cheaper model.

I do not see the manual SH-AWD model doing anything to help sales. The TL-S didn't provide a sales bump either (even if it was a stellar car).

DrUnBiased

Okay. That still doesn't answer my question. My question is, are you saying that based off of this information, the TL's sales were production limited? I don't see what else you could have meant when you said that TL's sales were lower in Novemeber 2007 already because Acura was cutting back on production.

I think your getting a bit to trigger happy to call the TL a failure. Would you call the LS a failure being something like 50% down only a year or so after it's release?

I think we both know that the economy is the leading role in the sales figures of these cars. Your last couples posts has shown me that you realized that Acura is not immune to the economy.

-J-P-L-

The Acura haters here will stop at nothing to bring down Acura.

How do you guys explain the Audi A4's drop of 33% with a redesigned model
(the only comparably classed redesign I can think of right now)?

There's only a couple of odd exceptions that had increased sales this November.
Why does one of them have to be the TL?

There's one more important note too: The AWD's were not available the whole month of November which is the model many buyers were waiting for and that is what's been selling best since it came out.

The new TL is a brilliant design that people just haven't caught up to yet. Trust me. People must always get used to a big change and this is one of them. After being around it 40 hours a week for the last couple of months, I now think it's one of the best looking cars out there. I didn't think so at first, but the design makes sense to me now. I read similar comments from reviewers who have spent time with it (this months C&D for example).

LexFather

Lets be clear. I may not like Acura direction the last 10 years or so but I am not silly enough to not respect Honda and their business case. I can only assume that Honda was smart enough to limit TL production in its final year of production. I cannot see Honda producint 70k TLs in its 5th year. Again, the TL sold VERY well in its 4th and 5th years I am not taking anything away from how well that car was recieved by the public.

However as we can see, 3100 sales are very low, that is how the TSX sales.

Is Acura immune to the economy? No! Its crystal clear no one is. However Acura has done NOTHING to help TL sales with the points I made earlier, begining with that awful design.

My point stands. TL sales are far under its normal 5800k a month and its not just the economy, its a product less people will want.

I need you to distinguish between blind "hate" and an intelligent debate where people explain why they agree/disagree. We are not talking about the A4.

You missed my point again. Only 20% allocation will be AWD, so we cannot blame AWD availibility for slow sales. 80% will be the cheaper FWD model.

The design is nowhere near brilliant as every publication has borderline bashed it. Ugly is ugly, even if you around it 100hrs a day.

Shallow Hal anyone?

-J-P-L-

It's styling is polarizing, yes, but it's not ugly to everyone. I love it. Acura designers love it. Executives at Acura loved it enough to commit billions in building it. If it's not for you, fine, you don't have to like it. But lets not make sweeping statements saying that it's hideous and an absolute epic fail. Remember that styling is subjective.


From January's Car and Driver...

-J-P-L-

And besides, isn't the new Maxima ugly as sin?

Doesn't seem to be nearly as much negativity towards it as the TL.

Nissan's new headlights are far worse than Acura's grills....

-J-P-L-

Since people want to argue about sales and how the TL is a total failure.....

.............Nov '08...Nov '07
3 Series....6,645...11,579....-42.6%
C-Class.....4,422....6,920....-36.1%
ES...........4,116....5,902....-30.3%
G Sedan...3,495.....4,399....-20.6%
A4...........3,304.....4,883....-32.3%
TL...........3,160....4,064...-22.2%
5 Series....2,927....4,617....-36.6%
IS............2,749....3,849....-28.6%
E-Class.....2,264....4,464....-49.3%
M............1,186.....1,474....-19.5%
GS...........721.......2,205....-67.3%
A6...........717.......1,098.....-34.7%

Umm, can someone define "failure" for me??

If it's selling 4.38 times as much as the Lexus GS or Audi A6, then failure is not what I thought it was. Wow, even the perennial 5-series and E-class with their numerous variants are selling less than the epic TL failure.