View Poll Results: Should Lexus start offering 4 cylinder engines in their lineup?
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Should Lexus start offering 4 cylinders?
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
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From: Stuttgart
Good point, although the GS and LS hybrids are not very fuel efficient and more for power and lower emissions for eco buyers. I think Lexus should offer a 4 cylinder option and I don't think it is going to hurt the image of the brand. Who here would really put buying a v6/v8 Lexus off their list or lose respect for Lexus if they offered a 4 cylinder option or a smaller 4 cylinder/4 cylinder hybrid vehicle? Modern 4 cylinders are far from the weak buzzy fours in the past. Done right a 4 cylinder can be just a quick, powerful, and smooth as a smaller 6 cylinder while getting better fuel economy. Honda has a great 240hp 4 cylinder and a excellent 200hp 4 cylinder that provides plenty of power and smoothness. For people saying 4 cylinders are not luxury, 6 cylinders are not really considered luxury either by many and are far more prevalent in inexpensive family sedans. Many people laugh at people who got v6 engines in their luxury cars because they feel only a v8 or v12 equals luxury and they cheapend out with choosing the 6 cylinder but who cares what others think.
Mercedes and BMW offered 4 cylinders in America for a long time and only fairly recently stopped selling them and nobody lost respect for those brands while they had four cylinders. They still have more prestige then Lexus or Jaguar who never offered 4 cylinders in America aside from maybe a really old Jaguar model a long time ago offering a 4 cylinder. Mercedes and BMW did not stop selling 4 cylinders in America because it hurt there image either, it was because they were not very good 4 cylinders and were not selling that well because they offered crappy 4 cylinders. If Mercedes and BMW had great reliable 4 cylinders like Honda then they would have sold much more and would still be available in the US. Mercedes and BMW sell 4 cylinders in Europe and they are the most popular engine choice on most of their cars and I don't hear people complaining about a image problem over there. Porsche sold 4 cylinders in certain sports cars up until the mid 90's and they did not lose any respect, they are one of the most highly respected brands sold in the US. Mercedes and BMW also sell 6 cylinder versions of S classes,7 series,6 series, SLs in Europe and other markets which sell very well.
I think a smooth highly fuel efficient 4 cylinder, 4 cylinder hybrid or diesel option for the IS would be welcome and a 4 cylinder hybrid or diesel would also be welcomed in a RX or ES. It is not going to hurt Lexus image other then a few hardcore Lexus enthusiasts who always brag that Lexus does not offer 4 cylinders and that somehow makes them better or more prestigious. With BMW and Mercedes hinting they will start bringing back 4 cylinders and will most likely offer 6 cylinders in their larger sedans and coupes in the future then Lexus would be at a disadvantage not having competing options especially with the way gas prices are going and everyone complaining. With the new fuel mileage standards coming up and high gas prices things are going to be changing in the auto industry and luxury nameplates/cars are not immune to these changes.
I think it is kind of funny seeing some people saying if you buy and own a Lexus or other luxury car you should not be worrying about getting good fuel economy,price of gas, and can afford putting alot of expensive gas in it yet every few days you see all these threads popping up about people complaining about gas prices and what they can do to make their cars more fuel efficient or get better gas mileage. I see these topics on all kinds of luxury car sites I visit so I am pretty sure luxury car buyers do want more fuel efficient cars and don't like spending a bunch of money on gas. If most Lexus owners and luxury car owners can afford and don't mind paying for expensive gas and expensive options then why do so many get the 6 cylinder instead of the v8. Six cylinder versions generally outsell their v8 versions 5 to 1 and often times 7-8 to 1. Getting a fuel efficient 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder option on a lux car makes alot more sense then trying to make a gas guzzling powerful v8 fuel efficient.
I say Lexus should offer a 4 cylinder option in the future on some cars and a hybrid/diesel 4 cylinder options as well, why not. Toyota makes good 4 cylinders and I am sure it would make one suitable for the Lexus brand and much better then the BMW/Merc 4 cylinders that were offered. I think they should also offer a LS version with a 6 cylinder or 6 cylinder hybrid and if they do another SC bring back a 6 cylinder version. Their 6 cylinders have plenty of horsepower for these vehicles and more hp then their v8s a couple years ago.
Mercedes and BMW offered 4 cylinders in America for a long time and only fairly recently stopped selling them and nobody lost respect for those brands while they had four cylinders. They still have more prestige then Lexus or Jaguar who never offered 4 cylinders in America aside from maybe a really old Jaguar model a long time ago offering a 4 cylinder. Mercedes and BMW did not stop selling 4 cylinders in America because it hurt there image either, it was because they were not very good 4 cylinders and were not selling that well because they offered crappy 4 cylinders. If Mercedes and BMW had great reliable 4 cylinders like Honda then they would have sold much more and would still be available in the US. Mercedes and BMW sell 4 cylinders in Europe and they are the most popular engine choice on most of their cars and I don't hear people complaining about a image problem over there. Porsche sold 4 cylinders in certain sports cars up until the mid 90's and they did not lose any respect, they are one of the most highly respected brands sold in the US. Mercedes and BMW also sell 6 cylinder versions of S classes,7 series,6 series, SLs in Europe and other markets which sell very well.
I think a smooth highly fuel efficient 4 cylinder, 4 cylinder hybrid or diesel option for the IS would be welcome and a 4 cylinder hybrid or diesel would also be welcomed in a RX or ES. It is not going to hurt Lexus image other then a few hardcore Lexus enthusiasts who always brag that Lexus does not offer 4 cylinders and that somehow makes them better or more prestigious. With BMW and Mercedes hinting they will start bringing back 4 cylinders and will most likely offer 6 cylinders in their larger sedans and coupes in the future then Lexus would be at a disadvantage not having competing options especially with the way gas prices are going and everyone complaining. With the new fuel mileage standards coming up and high gas prices things are going to be changing in the auto industry and luxury nameplates/cars are not immune to these changes.
I think it is kind of funny seeing some people saying if you buy and own a Lexus or other luxury car you should not be worrying about getting good fuel economy,price of gas, and can afford putting alot of expensive gas in it yet every few days you see all these threads popping up about people complaining about gas prices and what they can do to make their cars more fuel efficient or get better gas mileage. I see these topics on all kinds of luxury car sites I visit so I am pretty sure luxury car buyers do want more fuel efficient cars and don't like spending a bunch of money on gas. If most Lexus owners and luxury car owners can afford and don't mind paying for expensive gas and expensive options then why do so many get the 6 cylinder instead of the v8. Six cylinder versions generally outsell their v8 versions 5 to 1 and often times 7-8 to 1. Getting a fuel efficient 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder option on a lux car makes alot more sense then trying to make a gas guzzling powerful v8 fuel efficient.
I say Lexus should offer a 4 cylinder option in the future on some cars and a hybrid/diesel 4 cylinder options as well, why not. Toyota makes good 4 cylinders and I am sure it would make one suitable for the Lexus brand and much better then the BMW/Merc 4 cylinders that were offered. I think they should also offer a LS version with a 6 cylinder or 6 cylinder hybrid and if they do another SC bring back a 6 cylinder version. Their 6 cylinders have plenty of horsepower for these vehicles and more hp then their v8s a couple years ago.
Excellent post, UDel.
I would like to add one more thing. A lot of people here are claiming:
"Leave the 4-cylinders to Toyota, leave the 6- and 8-cylinders to Lexus."
What's wrong with this statement?
Answer: It's a very narrow minded American view on what luxury should be and ignores some very important factors and facts. These factors and facts are very simple.
There are people out there that want a fuel-efficient luxury car. There are people out there that like the design/features/etc. of the Lexus LS but would never get one because it doesn't come with an efficient V6 diesel or a gasoline V6. Simple facts and factors.
Why should someone who wants a luxurious and fuel-efficient Lexus GS go next door to the Toyota section and order a 4-cylinder Camry instead? In my opinion Lexus is missing opportunities by not offering smaller and more efficient motors.
Udel, another reason why BMW and Mercedes stopped selling their 4-cylinders in North America was because the average American luxury consumer was too stupid to think for himself and perceived them to be inappropriate for luxury cars. He's been brainwashed by reading magazines like Car and Driver that rant on how underpowered, unrefined and gutless 4-cylinder engines (well most) are. Actually this was something culturally ingrained in us because of decades of "V6 and V8 performance". Americans feel that 4-cylinders have no place in luxury cars. Fact.
It is a sad fact that most people driving high-end luxury cars like an S550 or LS460 never use a high percentage of performance the engine is capable of delivering. Essentially we have people driving around in gas-guzzling cars at low speeds. These same people would be better off with a V6/V6 diesel S class or LS.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
From: Stuttgart
My car has a sunroof, automatic transmission, navigation system and xenon headlights. These are systems I use on a daily basis. They are not useless. Since I use them often, they make my experience with the car more pleasing than if I had a bunch of "unwanted crap" onboard which I never would use.
I could care less if my car had every single option in the book in it. If I won't use gadget ________, then I don't need it. Europeans also think this way. They don't want "useless features" onboard that simply add weight and will never be used. Americans might get a hard on when hearing about "useless item ______" in this car, but someone who knows what they need won't.
By the way, for some people a Honda Civic is a "luxury car" per se as it fulfills all their needs. I'm thinking about little old grandmothers who use it to commute from their home to the local supermarket.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
From: Stuttgart
Audi/Benz/BMW all sell about 1 mill vehicles a year. Included are tons of subcompacts and I-4 cars, mostly sold overseas.
1-series, A2, A3, A class, B-class, etc
Lexus is 4th in sales with nearly 500k.
They have 500k sales with ONE 4 cylinder, a very small selling IS 220d.
The Audi A2 hasn't been made for ages. It was also a major flop. Audi sells more A4's than they do A3's in Europe. The same applies to BMW and Mercedes which sell more 3 series / C class sedans than 1 series / A/B class cars. Look it up.
Top 50 Sold Cars in Germany (2007)
1) VW Golf (214.367)
2) VW Passat (105.308)
3) BMW Dreier-Reihe (100.559)
4) Audi A4 (84.092)
5) Opel Astra (83.048)
6) Opel Corsa (79.098)
7) Mercedes C-Klasse (78.253)
8) VW Polo (76.683)
9) VW Touran (73.081)
10) Audi A3 (70.517)
Link: http://autozeitung.de/online/render.php?render=106567
Furthermore, the BMW 1 series is an awesome little sports sedan. It targets a market in Europe Lexus hasn't even touched: the youth market. I don't see why so many people hack on the BMW 1 series. It is a pure BMW inside and out that sticks to the company values and philosophy.
Excellent post, UDel.
I would like to add one more thing. A lot of people here are claiming:
"Leave the 4-cylinders to Toyota, leave the 6- and 8-cylinders to Lexus."
What's wrong with this statement?
Answer: It's a very narrow minded American view on what luxury should be and ignores some very important factors and facts. These factors and facts are very simple.
There are people out there that want a fuel-efficient luxury car. There are people out there that like the design/features/etc. of the Lexus LS but would never get one because it doesn't come with an efficient V6 diesel or a gasoline V6. Simple facts and factors.
I would like to add one more thing. A lot of people here are claiming:
"Leave the 4-cylinders to Toyota, leave the 6- and 8-cylinders to Lexus."
What's wrong with this statement?
Answer: It's a very narrow minded American view on what luxury should be and ignores some very important factors and facts. These factors and facts are very simple.
There are people out there that want a fuel-efficient luxury car. There are people out there that like the design/features/etc. of the Lexus LS but would never get one because it doesn't come with an efficient V6 diesel or a gasoline V6. Simple facts and factors.
Udel, another reason why BMW and Mercedes stopped selling their 4-cylinders in North America was because the average American luxury consumer was too stupid to think for himself and perceived them to be inappropriate for luxury cars. He's been brainwashed by reading magazines like Car and Driver that rant on how underpowered, unrefined and gutless 4-cylinder engines (well most) are. Actually this was something culturally ingrained in us because of decades of "V6 and V8 performance". Americans feel that 4-cylinders have no place in luxury cars. Fact.
It is a sad fact that most people driving high-end luxury cars like an S550 or LS460 never use a high percentage of performance the engine is capable of delivering. Essentially we have people driving around in gas-guzzling cars at low speeds. These same people would be better off with a V6/V6 diesel S class or LS.
Did you read what I wrote?
My car has a sunroof, automatic transmission, navigation system and xenon headlights. These are systems I use on a daily basis. They are not useless. Since I use them often, they make my experience with the car more pleasing than if I had a bunch of "unwanted crap" onboard which I never would use.
I could care less if my car had every single option in the book in it. If I won't use gadget ________, then I don't need it. Europeans also think this way. They don't want "useless features" onboard that simply add weight and will never be used. Americans might get a hard on when hearing about "useless item ______" in this car, but someone who knows what they need won't.
Originally Posted by Mike Tyson
Check the cash register.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
From: Stuttgart
Well, you just gave Mercedes-Benz another customer. They just sold another fuel-efficient E320 CDI...
I work in Europe (Germany) and I am learning the culture and their automotive culture too.
Most of the world think America is the land of freedom and opportunity based on some terrible Hollywood flicks they saw in their local cinema. I don't want to get into that.
You just dont get it. Yes, you may only use the nearly 400hp S550 or LS460 are capable of on a rare basis, but you will use it when you need to make a quick pass, or accelerate quickly to avoid an accident, or to cruise down the highway at 80mph with engine RPMs below 2500rpms. Its what defined luxury.
I drive a 136-horsepower Mercedes C200 CDI, an entry-level luxury car. I have NO PROBLEMS, ABSOLUTELY NONE when overtaking on country roads or on the famed German Autobahns at high speed. This car might not be the quickest performer in terms of 0-60, but when it comes to midrange power it delivers with ease.
Your statement makes no sense, too. You're saying someone who generally doesn't need an LS460 or an S550 should buy it anyway so he can safely overtake or merge on highways? Oh please, give me a break. A modern-day theoretical V6 LS or an S350 or S320 CDI would easily be capable of managing this. Heck, even the new Audi A8 2.8 would have no problems performing such a feat.
If our driving eduction system wasn't such a joke people wouldn't think this way. In Europe I've noticed that when I am driving unto a highway, the cars in the slow lane automatically move over unto the fast lane allowing me to drive unto the highway safely. Maybe if Driver's Ed back in America taught these things we'd have no problems merging unto a highway. Maybe if morons weren't allowed to drive we'd have no "slow people driving in the fast lane" business to worry about.
Furthermore, the BMW 1 series is an awesome little sports sedan. It targets a market in Europe Lexus hasn't even touched: the youth market. I don't see why so many people hack on the BMW 1 series. It is a pure BMW inside and out that sticks to the company values and philosophy.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
From: Stuttgart
You may as well call the 220d a poser car, since its not premium at all. The IS250 barely makes it into premium territory, at least by US standards. Besides the Acura TSX, its the least powerful premium car with smallest engine displacement available in the US. Even BMW and MB no longer sell 325/c240.
A 4-cylinder engine under the hood doesn't make the car any less premium. Look at the BMW 335i coupe and BMW 320Ci coupe for example. You're literally getting the same car with a less powerful engine and less standard features, but it is still a premium car.
Some people, myself included, would be unhappy with a car that came fully loaded with every conceivable option - of which many are just usless gizmos that are actually included in the price, add weight and decrease gas mileage.
Well, why, I'm on the same board as you. For instance, I dont want to Navigation system or TV or a bunch of other nonsense in my car, regardless whether its a premium or not. But I do want my V8, my power leather seats, seat memory, light sensitive mirrors, etc. I think you've being brainwashed over in "Yurope" that Americans are stupid. We are not, and if you don't believe me
Hmmm, me being brainwashed? I am an American (How many times do I need to say this?). And Europeans don't think Americans are stupid. They think Americans are "silly" in terms of what they eat and drive. Tell me, does mommy need a 300-hp SUV to bring little Johnny to soccer practice down the block? In Europe mommy drives Fabrizio to soccer practice in a sub-100-hp Fiat Multipla - and that's if the place is a little farther away. Usually, kids here walk to wherever...
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
From: Stuttgart
Lexus currently has no car that targets younger buyers in Europe. Believe it or not but the IS is seen as an "old mans car" here, just like the C class and to an extent the Audi A4. Only the BMW 3 series has that youth (and yes, even senior) car image.
Well, but for comparison sake....
Yes, it will be more economical in any type of driving. It's a V6, with fuel economy of a V6 in the worst case scenarior, and 4cyl in the best case scenario, and it can deliver the instant passing power of a V12.
I don't think Versace is concerned about the customer's they lose to $20 bootleged "exotic bags" sold in China Town.
Well, I'm Russian, living in America. And guess what, I came here 15 years ago, took advantage of freedom and opportunity, and today I'm running two businesses. I love this country (except our current govt of course), I love the culture, I love our V8, and if someone if Europe thinks im stupid, or narrow minder, or brainwashed, I couldn't give two craps about that.
Great. But a true premium car would do all of these things better. Better acceleration, better passing power, better midrange, smoother ride.
You dont generally need much anything besides food, air, water and shelter in cold weather. Everything else is excessive. Luxury is not about "needing" its about excess.
Well, thats a whole separate issue, and morons behind the wheel could be behind the wheel of any car.
I AM AN AMERICAN.
I work in Europe (Germany) and I am learning the culture and their automotive culture too.
Most of the world think America is the land of freedom and opportunity based on some terrible Hollywood flicks they saw in their local cinema. I don't want to get into that.
This is the kind of narrow minded thinking that is getting us nowhere. In the old days this was true, but these days even smaller engines are capable of generating enough power for quick bursts of speed and acceleration needed for overtaking.
I work in Europe (Germany) and I am learning the culture and their automotive culture too.
Most of the world think America is the land of freedom and opportunity based on some terrible Hollywood flicks they saw in their local cinema. I don't want to get into that.
This is the kind of narrow minded thinking that is getting us nowhere. In the old days this was true, but these days even smaller engines are capable of generating enough power for quick bursts of speed and acceleration needed for overtaking.
I drive a 136-horsepower Mercedes C200 CDI, an entry-level luxury car. I have NO PROBLEMS, ABSOLUTELY NONE when overtaking on country roads or on the famed German Autobahns at high speed. This car might not be the quickest performer in terms of 0-60, but when it comes to midrange power it delivers with ease.
Your statement makes no sense, too. You're saying someone who generally doesn't need an LS460 or an S550 should buy it anyway so he can safely overtake or merge on highways? Oh please, give me a break. A modern-day theoretical V6 LS or an S350 or S320 CDI would easily be capable of managing this. Heck, even the new Audi A8 2.8 would have no problems performing such a feat.
If our driving eduction system wasn't such a joke people wouldn't think this way. In Europe I've noticed that when I am driving unto a highway, the cars in the slow lane automatically move over unto the fast lane allowing me to drive unto the highway safely. Maybe if Driver's Ed back in America taught these things we'd have no problems merging unto a highway. Maybe if morons weren't allowed to drive we'd have no "slow people driving in the fast lane" business to worry about.
Thanks for reminding me, my car has no leather seats, yet I love it and still consider it premium. So tell me why you want a V8? Are you the kind of person who floors their car at every light? Are you the type of guy who speeds illegally? Or does it help you get chicks in a bar when you tell them that your ride has a V8? Tell me.
2) Never had a speeding ticket
3) Im married
But I love my V8 when it comes to passing "morons who shouldn't be allowed to drive".
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
From: Stuttgart
It's just the nitty picky people who complain that 0-60 in 9 seconds is "slow" or who see the specs on paper and then make their decision ("This car blows!") without trying it.
Before I selected the Mercedes C200 CDI as my car I drove it - and made my decision. I honestly was expecting a very slow car, but I was wrong. This car suits my needs here and it would probably suit my needs back home in America.
Answer: Because some people place emphasis on value - just like some people place emphasis on fuel economy, even in luxury cars.
Luxury might have been about excess in the old days, but these days the definition of luxury is changing into being sensible / individualization.
Got to go...
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
From: Stuttgart
Now if someone gave you the same car you drive, but with a 4-cylinder engine that was "just as powerful" and obviously offered better gas mileage, would you take it?
Got to go...
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Dustin, the hybrid passing power in the GS 450h is faster than its V-8 competiton, as shown in reviews. Instant torque= CVT= instantaneous.
As for buying luxury, you cannot bunch Lexus with Infinit/Acura. They are on the lower rung and have not proven then can compete in the upper luxury arena. Lexus has and has proven this for sometime. If you look at many MSRPs, the Lexus is as much if not more than the German. This is especially true with Lexus vs Audi pricing. Audi is actually the lower priced of the 4 brands (BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi).
You are also forgetting that you can LEASE a BMW for much less than people pay for maybe a Ford Escape.
In America, diesels for the most part are frowned upon. It was before my time but diesels have never been able to recover. With diesel gas here higher than premium, any MPG gained is lost.
In Europe, diesels are very popular b/c of taxes and higher gas prices for for decades now.
You can read any CAR/EVO/Top Gear, when they test diesels, they are the brands entry level cars or lowest rung of that range. Like a 520d for example.
Now BMW does make possibly the tastiest diesel EVER in the 335d/535d.
As for buying luxury, you cannot bunch Lexus with Infinit/Acura. They are on the lower rung and have not proven then can compete in the upper luxury arena. Lexus has and has proven this for sometime. If you look at many MSRPs, the Lexus is as much if not more than the German. This is especially true with Lexus vs Audi pricing. Audi is actually the lower priced of the 4 brands (BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi).
You are also forgetting that you can LEASE a BMW for much less than people pay for maybe a Ford Escape.
In America, diesels for the most part are frowned upon. It was before my time but diesels have never been able to recover. With diesel gas here higher than premium, any MPG gained is lost.
In Europe, diesels are very popular b/c of taxes and higher gas prices for for decades now.
You can read any CAR/EVO/Top Gear, when they test diesels, they are the brands entry level cars or lowest rung of that range. Like a 520d for example.
Now BMW does make possibly the tastiest diesel EVER in the 335d/535d.
If Lexus releases a 4 banger model, the mood will change.. Thread bookmarked