What has happened to Honda?
Lexus Champion
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,832
Likes: 0
From: California
If Honda wants to get their bragging rights back, they need to offer DOHC V6 instead of those cheap SOHC engines which are always behind the other competitors's offerings. Customers like to look at the style, look at the price, look at the engine size, and look at the horsepower. If other cars are averaging 300hp, you need 350hp. Instead of 350hp, Honda's products have 280hp or so. When you have 350hp, FWD is not going to work anymore, so you need RWD or AWD. But AWD gives people an impression that it is way too heavy and not fuel friendly and frequently unneccessary in good weather areas. I am thinking why isn't Audi selling more cars here in the U.S.? Probably due to its mandatory AWD configurations. I am not sure, but kind of have this thinking. Therefore, Acura needs to have their own RWD platforms. Honda and Acura vehicles don't have a talking point for people right now. Toyota has Lexus, the best selling luxury brands for several years now. Nissan has G35 and the upcoming GT-R, as well as 350Z. BMW always make driving machines. Benz's vehicles at least have the consistent family look and enough prestige to support sales. Even Hyundai is taking the RWD route. Honda is just like Ford, nothing to talk about. Accord and Civic are fine vehicles, but so are Camry and Corolla and Altima. When others are also offering something you have, then the things you have are not so special. S2000 and Fit are special, but they have their own weaknesses. S2000 has been in the market for almost eight years, not much has changed since its debut. People want the new successor. Fit is cute and versatile and easy to afford and fuel efficient, but Honda doesn't bring enough here. Honda used to have Prelude and Integra, both are gone. The Accord coupe is like an office guy wearing running shoes, never be a legit athlete. Without style, without performance, without uniqueness, how different could you be? Not much different from Ford and Mazda. Overall, Honda has become a boring company with only one forte left: reliable.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,751
Likes: 0
From: CA
I remember just a few years ago when Honda was the car company that everyone loved.
Look at the sale figures and numbers don't lie. YES! I think people still LOVE Honda cars.
Calendar year to date (March 2008)
CRV 50,684 ........... Rav4 34,229
Accord 87,802 ........ Camry 107,002
Odyssey 33697 .............. Sienna 34,299
Pilot 31,424 .......... Highlander 33,668
Civic 77,532 (15% increase over last year)......... Corolla 67,047
Fit 15,641 (79% increase over last year) ........ Yaris 30,377
Turning the clock back, the fifth and sixth generation Accords were some of the best looking and performing cars in their segment. IMO, still to this day the sixth generation Accord is the best looking car they ever built. It was ranked above the redesigned Camry and Altima at one point...quite a feat. Then came the first bad omen...the 2003 redesign. A car that was so ugly that even many of the Honda faithful had to admit to it's level of monstrosity. Let's not also forget the failed Accord hybrid with a 15hp boost over the V6, and marginal (if any) improvement in gas mileage. It was universally hailed as the ugliest midsizer despite typically Honda driving dynamics. Now the 7th generation looks great, and IMO, is one of two great products in Honda's stable.
Looks is subjective so I am not going to say anything. But if you think the current 7th generation Accord which is Honda bread and butter looks great... then how is it that they are heading in the wrong direction?
The Civic, once the small car icon has lost sales, prestige, driver appeal and really itself. It reigned as the fun to drive, compact FWD car that everyone could afford. Now the car easily prices into the low $20,000 mark with average options, has lost the driver connection it once offered, and has again been beaten with the Honda ugly stick.
I did not know know The Civic has prestige but I know it sure has not lost sale. In fact sales has increased 15% over last year. It was name car of the year for a reason. It is still fun to drive. You can not compare the price of the old Civic to the new Civic. New cars have much safety features that the old cars did not have.
The Fit arrived on scene a few months ago to fill the void left by the Civic when it alienated it's traditional buyers. Like recent Honda products, the Fit is unnecessarily expensive in comparison to it's competition but not a bad product all around.
Again, Fits sales increased 79% over last year thanks to the gas price. It is more expensive than competitors but it also offers features that competitors don't.
The CRV is one that I guess I have to eat my words on. I find it to be horrendously ugly (especially from the front end) but also impeccably built and they certainly sell plenty of them. I am left to wonder though- Honda will sell their V6 to Saturn for use in their CRV competitor, but refuse to drop a 6cylinder in their own offering? The CRV, while sold mainly as a 4 cylinder, is one of the last cute utes to lack this option. All in all a successful product, but it just lacks that Honda sparkle they had not that long ago.
Again, looks is subjective. The CRV is one of the best selling SUV if not the best.
The Odyssey is the other great Honda product...one that I find flawless in almost every regard. The S2000 also was an icon in it's day but was discontinued and doesn't seem to have any plans for replacement. Watching the success of the Highlander and others, Honda introduced the Pilot which has so far, been a competent and well heeled crossover. The 2009...is a different story.
Your fact is wrong again. The S2000 has not been discontinued.
The 2009 Pilot is the car that really made me want to start this thread. Yeah they have made a few mistakes but so does everyone. This Pilot though...is one tick too many on the black board. Simply put, the interior looks to be the cheapest, ugliest, blandest interior that I have seen in recent years in ANY new car. Old GM has built finer interiors than this. The exterior looks like a refreshed 1997 Isuzu Trooper and is about as wrong as you could possibly ever be, Not to mention that it bears no styling cues in line with any other Honda. Honestly...What were they thinking?
I agree on the looks of the 2009 Pilot though. Have you sat in the 2009 Pilot to conclude that the interior looks to be the cheapest, ugliest, blandest interior?
The Ridgeline. Oh, the Ridgeline. I'll just drop it right there.
Looking at their recent track record, what has happened to Honda? What happened to the slick looking cars with top notch quality and a flair of driver appeal?
Again, looks is subjective and IMO they still have good looking cars (s2k, Accord > Camry, Civic > Corrola, Fit > Yaris. Quality, fit and finish however is top notch. Sit in the new Accord and sit in the new Camry and you will know what I mean... difference is night and day.
...Has Honda lost their way?
Short answer is NOT YET.
Look at the sale figures and numbers don't lie. YES! I think people still LOVE Honda cars.
Calendar year to date (March 2008)
CRV 50,684 ........... Rav4 34,229
Accord 87,802 ........ Camry 107,002
Odyssey 33697 .............. Sienna 34,299
Pilot 31,424 .......... Highlander 33,668
Civic 77,532 (15% increase over last year)......... Corolla 67,047
Fit 15,641 (79% increase over last year) ........ Yaris 30,377
Turning the clock back, the fifth and sixth generation Accords were some of the best looking and performing cars in their segment. IMO, still to this day the sixth generation Accord is the best looking car they ever built. It was ranked above the redesigned Camry and Altima at one point...quite a feat. Then came the first bad omen...the 2003 redesign. A car that was so ugly that even many of the Honda faithful had to admit to it's level of monstrosity. Let's not also forget the failed Accord hybrid with a 15hp boost over the V6, and marginal (if any) improvement in gas mileage. It was universally hailed as the ugliest midsizer despite typically Honda driving dynamics. Now the 7th generation looks great, and IMO, is one of two great products in Honda's stable.
Looks is subjective so I am not going to say anything. But if you think the current 7th generation Accord which is Honda bread and butter looks great... then how is it that they are heading in the wrong direction?
The Civic, once the small car icon has lost sales, prestige, driver appeal and really itself. It reigned as the fun to drive, compact FWD car that everyone could afford. Now the car easily prices into the low $20,000 mark with average options, has lost the driver connection it once offered, and has again been beaten with the Honda ugly stick.
I did not know know The Civic has prestige but I know it sure has not lost sale. In fact sales has increased 15% over last year. It was name car of the year for a reason. It is still fun to drive. You can not compare the price of the old Civic to the new Civic. New cars have much safety features that the old cars did not have.
The Fit arrived on scene a few months ago to fill the void left by the Civic when it alienated it's traditional buyers. Like recent Honda products, the Fit is unnecessarily expensive in comparison to it's competition but not a bad product all around.
Again, Fits sales increased 79% over last year thanks to the gas price. It is more expensive than competitors but it also offers features that competitors don't.
The CRV is one that I guess I have to eat my words on. I find it to be horrendously ugly (especially from the front end) but also impeccably built and they certainly sell plenty of them. I am left to wonder though- Honda will sell their V6 to Saturn for use in their CRV competitor, but refuse to drop a 6cylinder in their own offering? The CRV, while sold mainly as a 4 cylinder, is one of the last cute utes to lack this option. All in all a successful product, but it just lacks that Honda sparkle they had not that long ago.
Again, looks is subjective. The CRV is one of the best selling SUV if not the best.
The Odyssey is the other great Honda product...one that I find flawless in almost every regard. The S2000 also was an icon in it's day but was discontinued and doesn't seem to have any plans for replacement. Watching the success of the Highlander and others, Honda introduced the Pilot which has so far, been a competent and well heeled crossover. The 2009...is a different story.
Your fact is wrong again. The S2000 has not been discontinued.
The 2009 Pilot is the car that really made me want to start this thread. Yeah they have made a few mistakes but so does everyone. This Pilot though...is one tick too many on the black board. Simply put, the interior looks to be the cheapest, ugliest, blandest interior that I have seen in recent years in ANY new car. Old GM has built finer interiors than this. The exterior looks like a refreshed 1997 Isuzu Trooper and is about as wrong as you could possibly ever be, Not to mention that it bears no styling cues in line with any other Honda. Honestly...What were they thinking?
I agree on the looks of the 2009 Pilot though. Have you sat in the 2009 Pilot to conclude that the interior looks to be the cheapest, ugliest, blandest interior?
The Ridgeline. Oh, the Ridgeline. I'll just drop it right there.
Looking at their recent track record, what has happened to Honda? What happened to the slick looking cars with top notch quality and a flair of driver appeal?
Again, looks is subjective and IMO they still have good looking cars (s2k, Accord > Camry, Civic > Corrola, Fit > Yaris. Quality, fit and finish however is top notch. Sit in the new Accord and sit in the new Camry and you will know what I mean... difference is night and day.
...Has Honda lost their way?
Short answer is NOT YET.
I guess in some ways I feel like Toyota has managed to out-Honda Honda. I thought that Honda always held a slight edge with driving dynamics and engine technology but Toyota is getting back into building fun cars to drive (Camry SE and others) and quite frankly, the GR family has owned the J engines across the board.
I find this funny. Honda has S2k & Civic SI and Toyota has Camry SE and others? This is a joke right?
Toyota is now getting back to building high quality mainstream cars...another area where Honda has slipped marginally. Anyone sat inside the new Highlander? Holy cow...it's flawless. The Camry and Tundra have been setbacks but I really do think that the quality and attention to detail is returning to Toyota, and that Honda's edge is gone.
let me know when they get there.
I find this funny. Honda has S2k & Civic SI and Toyota has Camry SE and others? This is a joke right?
Toyota is now getting back to building high quality mainstream cars...another area where Honda has slipped marginally. Anyone sat inside the new Highlander? Holy cow...it's flawless. The Camry and Tundra have been setbacks but I really do think that the quality and attention to detail is returning to Toyota, and that Honda's edge is gone.
let me know when they get there.
honda is doing the right thing by spending time and money to develop cars properly. unlike toyota which keeps making cars as fast they can, who cares if quality goes down the drain. while reliability abd build quality arent the most important thing for everyone, honda reliability isnt getting much worse, while toyotas is going down the drain fast. besides how many cars has toyota killed since 2000? how many has honda killed?
newr-
Your post is based largely around numbers, and I have never really disputed the numbers or sales figures. Honda has always sold plenty of cars but my post is based more around how I feel that the company has changed or lost their original philosophy.
IMO, the Fit and Civic have benefited from an overall return to small cars in the automotive market, not that miraculously more people are running out and buying Fits and Civics because they're wonderful. The market for all small cars is up. I guess you seem to forget that the redesigned Civic was selling worse than the old model for a while, and couldn't muster enough sales to displace the five year old Corolla.
I do feel that the 7th generation Accord looks great. It also seems to perform well and I'm sure it will last forever like most Hondas do. Again, it's the way that the rest of the company is changing that has me worried.
I was indeed wrong about the S2000, though I will try to dig up the article I referenced before. Allegedly the car is on it's way out, and the S2000CR is the last installment before it retires. That said, at least they have a fun, small small roadster...something that Toyota doesn't.
Moreover, I don't have to sit in the new Pilot to notice that it has the cheapest and ugliest interior produced in the last ten years. I don't know about you, but to me, four inch wide strips of black plastic down the console, concentrations of tiny buttons crammed together, and a gaping hole in the passenger side dash looks UGLY and it looks CHEAP. Opinion I suppose, but I have a hard time thinking that many others will disagree. And that shifter...seriously?
The last part of your post is again objective. I think the Civic is an abomination along with the Pilot, CRV, and Ridgeline. I would prefer the new Corolla, Rav4, Tacoma, and Highlander to the four of those anyday. I also prefer the Camry to the Accord, but again I do like the Honda a lot. Minivans are Minivans...it's a draw. It's also noteworthy that the Camry SE has been chosen as the "drivers car" over the Accord. Who ever saw that happening? Toyota also has greater hybrid technology, IMO better engines, and a forthcoming RWD entry level car, IS coupe and targa, and the LF-A. Believe it or not, ToMoCo has become a lot more exciting than HoMoCo.
You bring up the Honda Civic Si like I should take my words back, but in all truth it's one of the greatest disappointments to me now. The older Civic Sis were some of the best FWDers on the market. The new one...with 197hp and a 9Krpm redline...I'll pass. I'd rather have the MazdaSpeed 3 or maybe even the Corolla XRS for usable torque in daily driving. Let's not forget that the entry level high performance market is one that Honda almost created, and has since really lost their edge.
As far as quality, Toyota has certainly had their slip ups mainly with the Camry and Tundra. Don't forget that Honda has not also been without their quality glitches, but less so than Toyota. The new Highlander, Corolla, and Sequoia are certainly steps in the right direction for Toyota quality. The Venza will be out by the end of the year and at least by the pictures, looks to have another great interior.
Your post is based largely around numbers, and I have never really disputed the numbers or sales figures. Honda has always sold plenty of cars but my post is based more around how I feel that the company has changed or lost their original philosophy.
IMO, the Fit and Civic have benefited from an overall return to small cars in the automotive market, not that miraculously more people are running out and buying Fits and Civics because they're wonderful. The market for all small cars is up. I guess you seem to forget that the redesigned Civic was selling worse than the old model for a while, and couldn't muster enough sales to displace the five year old Corolla.
I do feel that the 7th generation Accord looks great. It also seems to perform well and I'm sure it will last forever like most Hondas do. Again, it's the way that the rest of the company is changing that has me worried.
I was indeed wrong about the S2000, though I will try to dig up the article I referenced before. Allegedly the car is on it's way out, and the S2000CR is the last installment before it retires. That said, at least they have a fun, small small roadster...something that Toyota doesn't.
Moreover, I don't have to sit in the new Pilot to notice that it has the cheapest and ugliest interior produced in the last ten years. I don't know about you, but to me, four inch wide strips of black plastic down the console, concentrations of tiny buttons crammed together, and a gaping hole in the passenger side dash looks UGLY and it looks CHEAP. Opinion I suppose, but I have a hard time thinking that many others will disagree. And that shifter...seriously?
The last part of your post is again objective. I think the Civic is an abomination along with the Pilot, CRV, and Ridgeline. I would prefer the new Corolla, Rav4, Tacoma, and Highlander to the four of those anyday. I also prefer the Camry to the Accord, but again I do like the Honda a lot. Minivans are Minivans...it's a draw. It's also noteworthy that the Camry SE has been chosen as the "drivers car" over the Accord. Who ever saw that happening? Toyota also has greater hybrid technology, IMO better engines, and a forthcoming RWD entry level car, IS coupe and targa, and the LF-A. Believe it or not, ToMoCo has become a lot more exciting than HoMoCo.
You bring up the Honda Civic Si like I should take my words back, but in all truth it's one of the greatest disappointments to me now. The older Civic Sis were some of the best FWDers on the market. The new one...with 197hp and a 9Krpm redline...I'll pass. I'd rather have the MazdaSpeed 3 or maybe even the Corolla XRS for usable torque in daily driving. Let's not forget that the entry level high performance market is one that Honda almost created, and has since really lost their edge.
As far as quality, Toyota has certainly had their slip ups mainly with the Camry and Tundra. Don't forget that Honda has not also been without their quality glitches, but less so than Toyota. The new Highlander, Corolla, and Sequoia are certainly steps in the right direction for Toyota quality. The Venza will be out by the end of the year and at least by the pictures, looks to have another great interior.
Lead Lap
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
From: NYC
Overall, Acuras are much cheaper on average than Infiniti. Acura should be the #2 selling Japanese luxury brand with those prices. But as of last month, they are not. I think this trend will continue as Infiniti seems to be wanting to expand their lineup and offer more and more vehicles (ala Lexus) whereas Acura seems to be complacent in selling the same 5 vehicles over and over again. My prediction is that Infiniti will end the year solidly in the #2 slot of Japanese luxury brands and will hold that position for many years to come, unless there's a major change in Acura which I do not foresee anytime soon.
Last edited by Sens4Miles; Apr 16, 2008 at 12:31 PM.
Pole Position
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,883
Likes: 1
From: Coral Springs, Fl
If Honda wants to get their bragging rights back, they need to offer DOHC V6 instead of those cheap SOHC engines which are always behind the other competitors's offerings. Customers like to look at the style, look at the price, look at the engine size, and look at the horsepower. If other cars are averaging 300hp, you need 350hp. Instead of 350hp, Honda's products have 280hp or so. When you have 350hp, FWD is not going to work anymore
As far as HP goes, how is Honda lacking? The RL is 290 HP and it's not even direct injected! And it only has a SOHC!! The new accord is 268HP which is exactly what Toyota's NON direct injected engine is. Guess what? It's a SOHC engine also.
I do agree with you 100% about cramming too much Hp into a FWD chassis and as these HP wars continue, Honda will have to move to a RWD/AWD layout if they ever hope to compete. But Honda are masters at the whole FWD thing so who knows what they'll come with in the future.
Last edited by IS350jet; Apr 16, 2008 at 06:03 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,511
Likes: 261
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
True to an extent. Honda's, especially the white ones, are notorious for rusty wheel wells. My roomate has always cleaned his Acura bi-weekly in hopes avoiding said rust problem. Unfortunately the driver's side has been rusting for a couple years now and is flakin paint badly.
The rust problem can't be that bad, that soon.....otherwise Honda and Acura wouldn't offer a 5 year/unlimited mileage corrosion warranty.
I agree..Those who usually have rust problems are from the North east.
There are even some Toyota Tundra/Tacoma (previous gen) owners who are reporting rust on their trucks. It's not just honda. Could happen to any car, and it has.
In fact, even Subaru issued a recall for 170,000 vehicles ranging from the year 2000-2003 model:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/subaru_rust.html
There are even some Toyota Tundra/Tacoma (previous gen) owners who are reporting rust on their trucks. It's not just honda. Could happen to any car, and it has.
In fact, even Subaru issued a recall for 170,000 vehicles ranging from the year 2000-2003 model:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/subaru_rust.html
Last edited by GSteg; Apr 16, 2008 at 01:18 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,511
Likes: 261
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
I agree..Those who usually have rust problems are from the North east.
There are even some Toyota Tundra/Tacoma (previous gen) owners who are reporting rust on their trucks. It's not just honda. Could happen to any car, and it has.
In fact, even Subaru issued a recall for 170,000 vehicles ranging from the year 2000-2003 model:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/subaru_rust.html
There are even some Toyota Tundra/Tacoma (previous gen) owners who are reporting rust on their trucks. It's not just honda. Could happen to any car, and it has.
In fact, even Subaru issued a recall for 170,000 vehicles ranging from the year 2000-2003 model:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/subaru_rust.html
honestly, I'd be more worried about rust on vital parts, such as the frame/subframe than the body panel itself. This this goes to show that the north east area is deadly for most cars. I will never buy a car from that region..EVER!
Lexus Champion
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,751
Likes: 0
From: CA
newr-
Your post is based largely around numbers, and I have never really disputed the numbers or sales figures. Honda has always sold plenty of cars but my post is based more around how I feel that the company has changed or lost their original philosophy.
IMO, the Fit and Civic have benefited from an overall return to small cars in the automotive market, not that miraculously more people are running out and buying Fits and Civics because they're wonderful. The market for all small cars is up. I guess you seem to forget that the redesigned Civic was selling worse than the old model for a while, and couldn't muster enough sales to displace the five year old Corolla.
I do feel that the 7th generation Accord looks great. It also seems to perform well and I'm sure it will last forever like most Hondas do. Again, it's the way that the rest of the company is changing that has me worried.
I was indeed wrong about the S2000, though I will try to dig up the article I referenced before. Allegedly the car is on it's way out, and the S2000CR is the last installment before it retires. That said, at least they have a fun, small small roadster...something that Toyota doesn't.
Moreover, I don't have to sit in the new Pilot to notice that it has the cheapest and ugliest interior produced in the last ten years. I don't know about you, but to me, four inch wide strips of black plastic down the console, concentrations of tiny buttons crammed together, and a gaping hole in the passenger side dash looks UGLY and it looks CHEAP. Opinion I suppose, but I have a hard time thinking that many others will disagree. And that shifter...seriously?
The last part of your post is again objective. I think the Civic is an abomination along with the Pilot, CRV, and Ridgeline. I would prefer the new Corolla, Rav4, Tacoma, and Highlander to the four of those anyday. I also prefer the Camry to the Accord, but again I do like the Honda a lot. Minivans are Minivans...it's a draw. It's also noteworthy that the Camry SE has been chosen as the "drivers car" over the Accord. Who ever saw that happening? Toyota also has greater hybrid technology, IMO better engines, and a forthcoming RWD entry level car, IS coupe and targa, and the LF-A. Believe it or not, ToMoCo has become a lot more exciting than HoMoCo.
You bring up the Honda Civic Si like I should take my words back, but in all truth it's one of the greatest disappointments to me now. The older Civic Sis were some of the best FWDers on the market. The new one...with 197hp and a 9Krpm redline...I'll pass. I'd rather have the MazdaSpeed 3 or maybe even the Corolla XRS for usable torque in daily driving. Let's not forget that the entry level high performance market is one that Honda almost created, and has since really lost their edge.
As far as quality, Toyota has certainly had their slip ups mainly with the Camry and Tundra. Don't forget that Honda has not also been without their quality glitches, but less so than Toyota. The new Highlander, Corolla, and Sequoia are certainly steps in the right direction for Toyota quality. The Venza will be out by the end of the year and at least by the pictures, looks to have another great interior.
Your post is based largely around numbers, and I have never really disputed the numbers or sales figures. Honda has always sold plenty of cars but my post is based more around how I feel that the company has changed or lost their original philosophy.
IMO, the Fit and Civic have benefited from an overall return to small cars in the automotive market, not that miraculously more people are running out and buying Fits and Civics because they're wonderful. The market for all small cars is up. I guess you seem to forget that the redesigned Civic was selling worse than the old model for a while, and couldn't muster enough sales to displace the five year old Corolla.
I do feel that the 7th generation Accord looks great. It also seems to perform well and I'm sure it will last forever like most Hondas do. Again, it's the way that the rest of the company is changing that has me worried.
I was indeed wrong about the S2000, though I will try to dig up the article I referenced before. Allegedly the car is on it's way out, and the S2000CR is the last installment before it retires. That said, at least they have a fun, small small roadster...something that Toyota doesn't.
Moreover, I don't have to sit in the new Pilot to notice that it has the cheapest and ugliest interior produced in the last ten years. I don't know about you, but to me, four inch wide strips of black plastic down the console, concentrations of tiny buttons crammed together, and a gaping hole in the passenger side dash looks UGLY and it looks CHEAP. Opinion I suppose, but I have a hard time thinking that many others will disagree. And that shifter...seriously?
The last part of your post is again objective. I think the Civic is an abomination along with the Pilot, CRV, and Ridgeline. I would prefer the new Corolla, Rav4, Tacoma, and Highlander to the four of those anyday. I also prefer the Camry to the Accord, but again I do like the Honda a lot. Minivans are Minivans...it's a draw. It's also noteworthy that the Camry SE has been chosen as the "drivers car" over the Accord. Who ever saw that happening? Toyota also has greater hybrid technology, IMO better engines, and a forthcoming RWD entry level car, IS coupe and targa, and the LF-A. Believe it or not, ToMoCo has become a lot more exciting than HoMoCo.
You bring up the Honda Civic Si like I should take my words back, but in all truth it's one of the greatest disappointments to me now. The older Civic Sis were some of the best FWDers on the market. The new one...with 197hp and a 9Krpm redline...I'll pass. I'd rather have the MazdaSpeed 3 or maybe even the Corolla XRS for usable torque in daily driving. Let's not forget that the entry level high performance market is one that Honda almost created, and has since really lost their edge.
As far as quality, Toyota has certainly had their slip ups mainly with the Camry and Tundra. Don't forget that Honda has not also been without their quality glitches, but less so than Toyota. The new Highlander, Corolla, and Sequoia are certainly steps in the right direction for Toyota quality. The Venza will be out by the end of the year and at least by the pictures, looks to have another great interior.
. However, your original post made it sounds like doom day is near for Honda that people are staying away and that their reliability is down. This is far from the truth. People are still buying Honda cars and the last time I check, Toyota is 5th behind Honda, Acura and Subaru in the reliability department. Except for a few, most car companies do not retain their original philosophy. They are in the business of making money and they will do whatever it takes to please the mass so that they can sell cars. Just look at Toyota. There is no more Supra, Celica, MR2... why do you think they dropped those cars?
I agree with you on the new Si (btw, the Si does not have 9K redline.
). Actually I test drove it couple days ago and as the previous owner of the Type-R and currently own the S2000, I came away disappointed. However, it would still run circle around the Camry SE on the track. The Camry SE is the only car that Toyota offers that is a little on the "sporty" side. Until I see the RWD entry level car, IS coupe and targa, and the LF-A you mentioned, then I believe ToMoCo has become a lot more exciting than HoMoCo. Until then, the fun department belongs to HoMoCo.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,005
Likes: 0
From: CA
I agree with some of your points. I'm disappointed with where Honda/Acura is taking there cars. I've owned a Honda for almost 10 years before I bought my 2IS and loved the cars they produced. One of the most reliable, reasonably priced and fun cars to own.
But lately, their design has turned me off... The Accord, Civic, Ridgeline and Passport....
I think lately, I'm most disappointed about is this clusterfck of a console....
But lately, their design has turned me off... The Accord, Civic, Ridgeline and Passport....
I think lately, I'm most disappointed about is this clusterfck of a console....
Lexus Champion
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 5
From: California
Let me sum it up for everyone. Honda still makes great cars that are reliable and well-built. Honda cars do everything that most people need them to do. However, Honda no longer makes cars for driving enthusiasts (save for the sole surviving S2K). And they're ugly. End of story.
Dysfunctional Veteran
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,103
Likes: 319
From: Van Alstyne, TX
True to an extent. Honda's, especially the white ones, are notorious for rusty wheel wells. My roomate has always cleaned his Acura bi-weekly in hopes avoiding said rust problem. Unfortunately the driver's side has been rusting for a couple years now and is flakin paint badly.