BMW mulls downsizing M engines, adding turbos
Lexus Champion
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: CA
Here is the story from Gordan Murray, he wanted a Honda engine ended up with a BMW one:
However, during that time, in Honda's philosophy there was a resistance to large engines with many cylinders. I am not certain, but probably at the time, the voluntary restraint on power limits was a factor. Being a fan of Honda engines, I later went to Honda's Tochigi Research Center on two occasions and requested that they consider building for the McLaren F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up equipped with a BMW engine.
The amazing thing is he asked for I think 550hp and got what 627 from BMW!
However, during that time, in Honda's philosophy there was a resistance to large engines with many cylinders. I am not certain, but probably at the time, the voluntary restraint on power limits was a factor. Being a fan of Honda engines, I later went to Honda's Tochigi Research Center on two occasions and requested that they consider building for the McLaren F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up equipped with a BMW engine.
The amazing thing is he asked for I think 550hp and got what 627 from BMW!
like i mentioned to Henry before, AMG's E63 v8 has more power than bmw's v10 and now bmw going FI across the lines is not cool.
Lexus Champion
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From: IL
I'm pretty sure it is 50 state legal and also pretty sure it doesn't do worse than the M3 in terms of fuel economy.
Lexus Fanatic
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From: A better place
If that's the case, then the 3.0L TT is a very flexible engine. The other question would be reliability. Would that Dinan modded engine match the reliability of the M3's engine, particularly when pushed hard on the track or for extended periods of time?
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i should've been a bit more clear, what i meant was that one of the greatest engine of all time is a BMW 6.1L v12 making 627hp. NA engines are what bmw is famous for! All their R&D on the NA engines for years and years after they dropped the turbo from the 2002 from 1973! there is no need to look back.
like i mentioned to Henry before, AMG's E63 v8 has more power than bmw's v10 and now bmw going FI across the lines is not cool.
like i mentioned to Henry before, AMG's E63 v8 has more power than bmw's v10 and now bmw going FI across the lines is not cool.
I agree BMW is an engine company and now are going all over the place with engine configuration. Thing is AMG and Audi RS is MAKING them do this, with their huge engines or bi-turbos.
Whats sad is BMW was about the TOTAL package, not out powering you. Get back to low weight and less power and the people will come more than ever.
If people want a heavy turbo, they can ALREADY buy an AMG or a RS6!!
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: A better place
Yes, and OHC design is decades old, what's your point? The "LSx" series of GM small-blocks are a clean sheet design. The LS engines draw upon the heritage of the original Chevy small blocks, but with the LS engines GM started from scratch. The only thing LS engines share with the original Chevy small block is the OHV architecture.
The LS series engines from GM debuted in 1997. The 1UZ from Lexus debuted in 1989. The LS3 engine only debuted a few months ago in the 2008 Corvette. Far from an apples to apples comparison.
The LS series engines from GM debuted in 1997. The 1UZ from Lexus debuted in 1989. The LS3 engine only debuted a few months ago in the 2008 Corvette. Far from an apples to apples comparison.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Tennessee
I agree. Instead of cancelling or in other words just giving up on using bigger engines, why not challenge your engineers? Also, why not lower the weight of vehicles too?
Toyota and Nissan have both committed to lowering vehicle weight over the next several years. They will lower weight yet keep vehicle safety high through the use of advanced materials.
Also with engines, both Nissan and Toyota are pushing their engineers to make powerful V8s that are also fuel efficient.
The Lexus 4.6L V8 is as fuel efficient as some V6 engines on the market right now.
The way that automakers are reacting to stricter fuel economy and emissions standards illustrates differences in their corporate cultures. Companies like Toyota and Nissan just cancel entire classes of engines or give up, they challenge their engineers and themselves.
It's not just about power, but about meeting emissions and fuel economy. I can guarantee that a Dinan modded 335i does not get great emissions or get great fuel economy.
Why are you comparing the 1UZ with the LS3? The 1UZ is an almost 20-year old engine design, while the LS3 is very recent engine design. Why don't we compare the 1UR instead of the 1UZ to make it more fair?
The 1UR has almost 2L less displacement than the LS3, and it makes a bit less power than the LS3, yet it gets better fuel economy. It's also smoother and more refined than the LS3.
Toyota and Nissan have both committed to lowering vehicle weight over the next several years. They will lower weight yet keep vehicle safety high through the use of advanced materials.
Also with engines, both Nissan and Toyota are pushing their engineers to make powerful V8s that are also fuel efficient.
The Lexus 4.6L V8 is as fuel efficient as some V6 engines on the market right now.
The way that automakers are reacting to stricter fuel economy and emissions standards illustrates differences in their corporate cultures. Companies like Toyota and Nissan just cancel entire classes of engines or give up, they challenge their engineers and themselves.
It's not just about power, but about meeting emissions and fuel economy. I can guarantee that a Dinan modded 335i does not get great emissions or get great fuel economy.
Why are you comparing the 1UZ with the LS3? The 1UZ is an almost 20-year old engine design, while the LS3 is very recent engine design. Why don't we compare the 1UR instead of the 1UZ to make it more fair?The 1UR has almost 2L less displacement than the LS3, and it makes a bit less power than the LS3, yet it gets better fuel economy. It's also smoother and more refined than the LS3.
Pole Position
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 319
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From: NJ
Benz V8 is 6.2L BMW V10 in M5/M6 is 5L. BMW is still pulling out more specific HP per displacement
i should've been a bit more clear, what i meant was that one of the greatest engine of all time is a BMW 6.1L v12 making 627hp. NA engines are what bmw is famous for! All their R&D on the NA engines for years and years after they dropped the turbo from the 2002 from 1973! there is no need to look back.
like i mentioned to Henry before, AMG's E63 v8 has more power than bmw's v10 and now bmw going FI across the lines is not cool.
like i mentioned to Henry before, AMG's E63 v8 has more power than bmw's v10 and now bmw going FI across the lines is not cool.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,285
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From: A better place
Keep in mind smoothness and refinement does not come "free" nor do low emissions. Often smoothness and high refinement in an engine comes at the cost of performance, not to mention engine weight and cost. Low emissions also tend to come at the cost of high performance as well as cost.
LS1 came out in 1997, 1UZ came out in 1989. It would be more fair to compare the 3UZ to the LS1, in which case both engines would be similar in many metrics, with the LS1 possibly being a bit smaller and lighter, while the the 3UZ being smoother and more refined and having better emissions.
Keep in mind smoothness and refinement does not come "free" nor do low emissions. Often smoothness and high refinement in an engine comes at the cost of performance, not to mention engine weight and cost. Low emissions also tend to come at the cost of high performance as well as cost.
Keep in mind smoothness and refinement does not come "free" nor do low emissions. Often smoothness and high refinement in an engine comes at the cost of performance, not to mention engine weight and cost. Low emissions also tend to come at the cost of high performance as well as cost.
More fair comparisons to the LS3 would be the 2 or 3? UR... the 5.0L in the IS-F. I bet that motor is pretty light too; it is also all-aluminum.
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