Hybrids Delaying Other Technologies
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
From: California
The E320 is rated at 23/32. You have quite an imagination thinking an E320 exceeds a Civic's fuel economy.
Also the E320 has a pathetic 210hp, seems pretty pointless compared to a GS350 which has vastly superior performance, costs $10,000 less, and delivers good fuel economy
you'll be waiting a very long time. Might as well wait for the new LS hybrid as well.
Also the E320 has a pathetic 210hp, seems pretty pointless compared to a GS350 which has vastly superior performance, costs $10,000 less, and delivers good fuel economy
you'll be waiting a very long time. Might as well wait for the new LS hybrid as well.
"Easy on the Gatorade
The Bluetec carries a preliminary EPA rating of 26/37 city/hwy mpg, which beats out the E350's 19/26 by a huge margin and even out-economizes hybrids like the Lexus GS 450h. Base price for the Bluetec is $52,325 with destination, which is only $1,000 more than a similarly equipped E350. Factor in the Bluetec's fuel savings and this premium will be offset in about two and a half years at today's (low) fuel prices. Not bad, and when fuel prices climb, the investment pays off sooner. Sorry, wagon lovers — the 2007 E320 Bluetec will only be available in sedan guise, and 4Matic all-wheel drive will not be offered.
The comparison of the gasoline E350 to the diesel Bluetec draws similar parallels among hybrids, but with a startlingly different outcome. For example, the $55,615 hybrid Lexus GS 450h is rated at 25/28 city/hwy mpg. It shares its V6 engine with the $44,865 GS 350, rated at 21/29 mpg. Adjusted for differences in standard equipment, the hybrid commands a premium of $8,565 over the GS 350. But since the hybrid only saves $150 per year in fuel costs, it will take 57 years to recoup the purchase price difference. Use real-world fuel economy numbers, and a solely economic argument for opting for the hybrid gets even feebler.
This real-world value is part of the reason for Mercedes' big diesel push, although global markets also play into the equation. With penetration exceeding 60 percent in several countries, diesels have huge presence in Europe's passenger cars. Nevertheless, Mercedes' economies of scale reaped by commonizing hardware between European- and U.S.-bound vehicles allow diesel sticker shock to be minimized."
The difference of course was the preliminary EPA number versus what the car now carries.
Merc, Bimmer, and Audi have all announced the diesels are coming. Unfortunately they announced they would be here in 2007 but the problems with the diesel fuel delayed that. Will they show up soon? Who knows? But the thing I do know after having two GS's and testing the LS is that I don't care for the way it drives. I don't know exactly what I am going to get but I have given up waiting for Lexus to make drivers cars. I have no complaints on reliability and my GS4 has gotten quite decent handling but I am no longer interesting in modding cars to have them come the way I expect from the factory. I don't like the ride harshness that has crept into the 7 and A8 but the S class almost justifies its price. As for a second gen LS hybrid I hope they find a way to give a car that big a real trunk in the hybrid. The trunk on the 600h is ridiculous IMO. But back to the original intent. The diesel R&D funding certainly held the Europeans back from hybrid development and the Toyota/Lexus Hybrid R&D expense held them back from diesel development. Both technologies have been funded and will be available here. Then the market gets to decide but I still don't think that the hybrids success is delaying any short term alternatives.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
From: California
Once again, just look at one of the other posts. I did cross the preliminary EPA number for the current number but I will still take 23/32 in a vehicle that I am getting with an eye toward fuel economy.
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,534
Likes: 0
From: MD
87 Octane: $2.93
93 Octane: $3.29
Diesel: $3.69
Its just not very appealing thats all. And neither is starting one in the cold.
I see Lexus doing at least one of two things in the near future. Offering a fuel efficient IS or ES hybrid with around 250 hp with the intention of competing with Mercedes' diesels and upcoming hybrids. Or they may offer a hybrid GX or LX in an attempt to compete with the Tahoe hybrid.
If they're going to do an ESh, I really hope that they do it soon. I have to believe that the 2.5L V6 combined with Lexus hybrid drive would not only produce acceptable power, but decent fuel economy as well for all of the Lexus fans turned off by the power GSh.
Last edited by SLegacy99; Feb 13, 2008 at 05:41 PM.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,192
Likes: 3
From: none
of course... fuel cells are not hybrids 
wouldn't be surprise to see it in the near future. Toyota does have shares in Subaru's parent company
True but at least with hybrids, we can slowly shrink the gas engine size and slowly increase the battery density.
EVs are great but the charge time is still longer than the time it takes to fill a gas tank. Range isn't that big of a problem since the old EV1 on lead acid did about 100 miles and the new Tesla can do what... 200 something miles?
It's the recharge time. Now yes you can recharge it while at the mall or at the movies instead of "wasting" time standing by the pump but that means every mall in America needs to have power outlets in all their parking spaces.
a PHEV can combine the best of both worlds - an EV when you want to but a hybrid when you need it.
Ah, but hybrids have lasting uses in say hydrogen cars according Toyota.
Personally I would prefer a hybrid over an electric vehicle simply for the thrill of driving. To me, a hybrid is like having a turbocharger on your car without sacraficing the sound and anticipation of an ICE. I'd be completely happy if Subaru offered a hybrid Impreza with their efficient 2.0L engine.
Personally I would prefer a hybrid over an electric vehicle simply for the thrill of driving. To me, a hybrid is like having a turbocharger on your car without sacraficing the sound and anticipation of an ICE. I'd be completely happy if Subaru offered a hybrid Impreza with their efficient 2.0L engine.
I agree with you there is no viable alternative right now, but that's just the point I was making earlier.......the sooner we get started ON a viable alternative, the better off the situation will be. Hybrids, while effective at increasing gas mileage, still depend on a substance of limited supply, and increasingly more expensive...oil. So do diesels, though they do it with less drivetrain complexity than hybrids. But, sooner of later, like it or not, alternatives will have to be developed....especially with the exploding demand for energy in India and China.
At one point in our history, when the automobile was new, the same point you brought up was being made about gasoline...........
"Gasoline? Where the hell are we going to go for GASOLINE? Nobody SELLS it."
So, electric and steam-powered cars were developed as competitors....the famous Stanley Steamers were perhaps the most well-known. They persisted until there was an adequate network of gas stations nationwide.
At one point in our history, when the automobile was new, the same point you brought up was being made about gasoline...........
"Gasoline? Where the hell are we going to go for GASOLINE? Nobody SELLS it."
So, electric and steam-powered cars were developed as competitors....the famous Stanley Steamers were perhaps the most well-known. They persisted until there was an adequate network of gas stations nationwide.
EVs are great but the charge time is still longer than the time it takes to fill a gas tank. Range isn't that big of a problem since the old EV1 on lead acid did about 100 miles and the new Tesla can do what... 200 something miles?
It's the recharge time. Now yes you can recharge it while at the mall or at the movies instead of "wasting" time standing by the pump but that means every mall in America needs to have power outlets in all their parking spaces.
a PHEV can combine the best of both worlds - an EV when you want to but a hybrid when you need it.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
From: California
Well, I have posted before on diesel prices. Here in Cali, which is not known for cheap gas prices, 91 octane premium is going for 3.29/gal (as of this morning) and diesel is going for 3.39/gallon at the same station. If my tradeoff is 3% more for diesel fuel for maybe 50% better mileage, well that's a no brainer.
"Detroit, Michigan—You know something’s changed when a sleek silver Ferrari F430 Spider has “Bio Fuel” emblazoned on the doors in bright green, signifying its ability to run on E85 ethanol. This year’s Detroit auto show was all about the environment.
The stars of the show were diesels, and 2009 will see a raft of them launched into the U.S. market—not just from German diesel stalwart Mercedes-Benz but also Audi, BMW, and Volkswagen. Audi showed its stunning R8 supercar with a turbocharged V12 diesel, similar to one that won LeMans, making it undoubtedly the fastest and sexiest diesel in the world.
Other makers with diesel production plans or concept cars include Acura, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Honda, Jeep, Kia, Land Rover, Saturn, and Subaru. Even Mitsubishi—hardly the first brand that comes to mind when thinking diesel—showed a sporty coupe concept with the engine.
Announcements of new hybrid cars were sparse, though several concept cars—including one from a Chinese battery maker—previewed future vehicles. That said, the two highest-volume products launched at the show were full-size pickup trucks. Ford launched a revised F-150—the best-selling vehicle in the United States for 31 years, as the company points out relentlessly—and Dodge showed a revised version of its Ram. Together they generate North American sales of more than 1 million units a year.
Every automaker talked about its strategy for reducing fuel consumption, shifting to alternate fuels—E85, electricity, and occasionally hydrogen—and reducing the environmental footprint of its cars and its operations. Time will tell which announcements result in actual products and which were just “vaporware.” But this year, as one reporter said, “it finally seems real.”
Largely ignoring diesels and hybrid cars, Ford instead discussed its EcoBoost engine—which it will offer in high volumes, in both four- and six-cylinder designs, within the next few years. Combining gasoline direct injection with a turbocharger, an EcoBoost V6 provides equal power and torque to a traditional V8, with 10 to 20 percent better fuel economy and up to 15 percent less carbon dioxide. Ford is hardly the only carmaker to use direct injection and turbos, but it’s the first time such an engine will be offered in high volumes.
Overall, the mood at the show was subdued. The assembled media applauded very few cars, since all but one had been previously revealed on the Internet. Fewer automakers built elaborate, multitiered displays; gigantic video screens provided the flash and dazzle instead. And just a handful of exotic brands had the traditional models in cocktail dresses decorating their vehicles.
On the advanced propulsion front, General Motors wielded the biggest stick. Its Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon full-size sport utilities with the Two-Mode Hybrid system go into limited production late this year. The Chevy Volt serial hybrid concept was there, of course, and its E-Flex architecture underpinned two more concepts. One, the Saturn Flextreme, was a minivan previously shown as an Opel at last fall’s Frankfurt auto show. The other was a small Cadillac sport utility, the Provoq, powered by a hydrogen fuel cell and electric drive. (Minus those components, it’s a preview of a future production vehicle for Cadillac.) Clearly, GM is fighting to trump Toyota’s previously unassailable “green” image.
A few hybrid cars came from unexpected sources. Henrik Fisker, a former designer at BMW, unveiled his new company’s Karma luxury hybrid-electric sports sedan. And Fisker Automotive itself revealed an investment by respected venture-capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caulfield and Byers. No longer is Tesla Motors the newest Silicon Valley start-up in the car biz.
Fisker’s car, a nonrunning display model, is clearly elegant. But executives declined to specify the engine, batteries, detailed performance specs, or even who would build the car for them—much of which remains to be settled. Meanwhile, the company is taking US $1000 and $5000 deposits on the quoted price of $80 000, for a claimed delivery date in the fourth quarter of 2009. Analysts call that date a very long shot indeed.
Chrysler’s three electric-drive concept vehicles weren’t a surprise—all had appeared online—but their component set was. Each used a different mix from a common set of electric, hybrid, or fuel-cell building blocks that Chrysler is considering for its future drivetrains. The egg-shaped Chrysler ecoVoyager—for customers seeking “understated elegance and simplicity”—took the company’s nineties cab-forward design into a whole new dimension. It was powered by a fuel cell and lithium-ion batteries. Stylish green off-roading came from the two-seat Jeep Renegade, offering 64 kilometers of electric range, with batteries recharged by a small diesel thereafter. And the electric Dodge Zeo small sport wagon, with 400 km of range, was for drivers who value performance and “wind in the hair” speed.
Five Chinese carmakers exhibited at Detroit this year, more than ever before. Not a one committed to a date for U.S. sales, evidence of a new reality in approaching the world’s most competitive car market. Their cars were better built than last year’s, but the interior quality and durability still need a lot of work. On the other hand, none of them has been making cars for more than 10 years—and everyone knows they’re learning very quickly.
The most audacious of the Chinese group was BYD Auto. The company claims to supply 65 percent of the world’s nickel-cadmium batteries and 30 percent of its lithium-ion mobile-phone batteries. BYD showed a hybrid-electric F6 sedan with a claimed electric range of 96 km, which it said would be offered for sale in small numbers—only in China—by the end of the year. The car is unlikely to meet U.S. safety, emissions, or durability standards, but it would still be a notable achievement if it happens.
For the largest parts suppliers, the dozens of Chinese automakers present an alluring new market. But they fear they have only a few years in which to sell their advanced technology before the Chinese supply base catches up. So it was significant that JCI-Saft announced two contracts to supply advanced batteries to Chinese makers.
JCI-Saft will provide a complete hybrid battery system to Chery Automobile for the A5 ISG mild hybrid sedan it plans to launch by December. Highlighting the global nature of the car-parts industry, those nickel-metal-hydride cells will be made in France and integrated into a battery pack in China, based on development work done in the United States. The second deal is with Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp., China’s largest carmaker. JCI-Saft will supply lithium-ion battery systems—its most advanced class—for a demonstration fleet of advanced hybrids that will be on the road within a few months."
I don't necessarily agree with all of his conclusions, this is from IEEE Spectrum which is a publication of an electronic professional organization and has some bias towards all things electronic. But I feel we are really getting off the original intent of the thread. Personally I figure there will both a diesel and a hybrid in my garage within three years. Hopefully Lexus will pull the finger out and do an ESh. But I think the original article was maybe a little too biased to the US market where diesels are a late entry. I still don't see hybrid development funding delaying alternatives other than those that are economically unatractive and will have to wait anyway. I also hope one technology doesn't win the race. As a consumer, I prefer options. I want to look at hybrids. And if they don't fit for me I want to look at diesels, pure gas that just goes on a diet and gets more efficient, plug in electric, fuel cell, hydrogen, and hopefully even more choices. I sure don't want anyone to quit development because they believe hybrid has won the market.
"Detroit, Michigan—You know something’s changed when a sleek silver Ferrari F430 Spider has “Bio Fuel” emblazoned on the doors in bright green, signifying its ability to run on E85 ethanol. This year’s Detroit auto show was all about the environment.
The stars of the show were diesels, and 2009 will see a raft of them launched into the U.S. market—not just from German diesel stalwart Mercedes-Benz but also Audi, BMW, and Volkswagen. Audi showed its stunning R8 supercar with a turbocharged V12 diesel, similar to one that won LeMans, making it undoubtedly the fastest and sexiest diesel in the world.
Other makers with diesel production plans or concept cars include Acura, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Honda, Jeep, Kia, Land Rover, Saturn, and Subaru. Even Mitsubishi—hardly the first brand that comes to mind when thinking diesel—showed a sporty coupe concept with the engine.
Announcements of new hybrid cars were sparse, though several concept cars—including one from a Chinese battery maker—previewed future vehicles. That said, the two highest-volume products launched at the show were full-size pickup trucks. Ford launched a revised F-150—the best-selling vehicle in the United States for 31 years, as the company points out relentlessly—and Dodge showed a revised version of its Ram. Together they generate North American sales of more than 1 million units a year.
Every automaker talked about its strategy for reducing fuel consumption, shifting to alternate fuels—E85, electricity, and occasionally hydrogen—and reducing the environmental footprint of its cars and its operations. Time will tell which announcements result in actual products and which were just “vaporware.” But this year, as one reporter said, “it finally seems real.”
Largely ignoring diesels and hybrid cars, Ford instead discussed its EcoBoost engine—which it will offer in high volumes, in both four- and six-cylinder designs, within the next few years. Combining gasoline direct injection with a turbocharger, an EcoBoost V6 provides equal power and torque to a traditional V8, with 10 to 20 percent better fuel economy and up to 15 percent less carbon dioxide. Ford is hardly the only carmaker to use direct injection and turbos, but it’s the first time such an engine will be offered in high volumes.
Overall, the mood at the show was subdued. The assembled media applauded very few cars, since all but one had been previously revealed on the Internet. Fewer automakers built elaborate, multitiered displays; gigantic video screens provided the flash and dazzle instead. And just a handful of exotic brands had the traditional models in cocktail dresses decorating their vehicles.
On the advanced propulsion front, General Motors wielded the biggest stick. Its Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon full-size sport utilities with the Two-Mode Hybrid system go into limited production late this year. The Chevy Volt serial hybrid concept was there, of course, and its E-Flex architecture underpinned two more concepts. One, the Saturn Flextreme, was a minivan previously shown as an Opel at last fall’s Frankfurt auto show. The other was a small Cadillac sport utility, the Provoq, powered by a hydrogen fuel cell and electric drive. (Minus those components, it’s a preview of a future production vehicle for Cadillac.) Clearly, GM is fighting to trump Toyota’s previously unassailable “green” image.
A few hybrid cars came from unexpected sources. Henrik Fisker, a former designer at BMW, unveiled his new company’s Karma luxury hybrid-electric sports sedan. And Fisker Automotive itself revealed an investment by respected venture-capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caulfield and Byers. No longer is Tesla Motors the newest Silicon Valley start-up in the car biz.
Fisker’s car, a nonrunning display model, is clearly elegant. But executives declined to specify the engine, batteries, detailed performance specs, or even who would build the car for them—much of which remains to be settled. Meanwhile, the company is taking US $1000 and $5000 deposits on the quoted price of $80 000, for a claimed delivery date in the fourth quarter of 2009. Analysts call that date a very long shot indeed.
Chrysler’s three electric-drive concept vehicles weren’t a surprise—all had appeared online—but their component set was. Each used a different mix from a common set of electric, hybrid, or fuel-cell building blocks that Chrysler is considering for its future drivetrains. The egg-shaped Chrysler ecoVoyager—for customers seeking “understated elegance and simplicity”—took the company’s nineties cab-forward design into a whole new dimension. It was powered by a fuel cell and lithium-ion batteries. Stylish green off-roading came from the two-seat Jeep Renegade, offering 64 kilometers of electric range, with batteries recharged by a small diesel thereafter. And the electric Dodge Zeo small sport wagon, with 400 km of range, was for drivers who value performance and “wind in the hair” speed.
Five Chinese carmakers exhibited at Detroit this year, more than ever before. Not a one committed to a date for U.S. sales, evidence of a new reality in approaching the world’s most competitive car market. Their cars were better built than last year’s, but the interior quality and durability still need a lot of work. On the other hand, none of them has been making cars for more than 10 years—and everyone knows they’re learning very quickly.
The most audacious of the Chinese group was BYD Auto. The company claims to supply 65 percent of the world’s nickel-cadmium batteries and 30 percent of its lithium-ion mobile-phone batteries. BYD showed a hybrid-electric F6 sedan with a claimed electric range of 96 km, which it said would be offered for sale in small numbers—only in China—by the end of the year. The car is unlikely to meet U.S. safety, emissions, or durability standards, but it would still be a notable achievement if it happens.
For the largest parts suppliers, the dozens of Chinese automakers present an alluring new market. But they fear they have only a few years in which to sell their advanced technology before the Chinese supply base catches up. So it was significant that JCI-Saft announced two contracts to supply advanced batteries to Chinese makers.
JCI-Saft will provide a complete hybrid battery system to Chery Automobile for the A5 ISG mild hybrid sedan it plans to launch by December. Highlighting the global nature of the car-parts industry, those nickel-metal-hydride cells will be made in France and integrated into a battery pack in China, based on development work done in the United States. The second deal is with Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp., China’s largest carmaker. JCI-Saft will supply lithium-ion battery systems—its most advanced class—for a demonstration fleet of advanced hybrids that will be on the road within a few months."
I don't necessarily agree with all of his conclusions, this is from IEEE Spectrum which is a publication of an electronic professional organization and has some bias towards all things electronic. But I feel we are really getting off the original intent of the thread. Personally I figure there will both a diesel and a hybrid in my garage within three years. Hopefully Lexus will pull the finger out and do an ESh. But I think the original article was maybe a little too biased to the US market where diesels are a late entry. I still don't see hybrid development funding delaying alternatives other than those that are economically unatractive and will have to wait anyway. I also hope one technology doesn't win the race. As a consumer, I prefer options. I want to look at hybrids. And if they don't fit for me I want to look at diesels, pure gas that just goes on a diet and gets more efficient, plug in electric, fuel cell, hydrogen, and hopefully even more choices. I sure don't want anyone to quit development because they believe hybrid has won the market.
1) Hydrogen. A complete oxymoron. I don't know why even bother. It takes electric energy to generate hydrogen, and then hydrogen is used to create electric energy to power the car. Would be much more efficient to just use the electric energy directly, skipping the whole hydrogen nonsense.
Once a high range capacity is developed giving 300+ miles of range on a standard sized vehicle, hydrogen fuel cells will take a dirt nap. You cant improve hydrogens energy density but you can always improve a battery.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
From: California
And while a diesel is heavier than a petrol engine you don't have to carry around three, four, or six hundred pounds of batteries, motors, electronics, and wiring. The mileage on the electric cars may make the case but I haven't seen the handling of any vehicle improve by porking up like that.
Guest
Posts: n/a
So that's what, 10% more per gallon than premium? Once these doggoned high tech diesels get here and we can really see what mileage they get, it may be worthwhile. Maybe it won't. But having the choice is what I want. Once again, I don't see the current success of the hybrid reducing the introduction of viable alternatives to any great extent.
And while a diesel is heavier than a petrol engine you don't have to carry around three, four, or six hundred pounds of batteries, motors, electronics, and wiring. The mileage on the electric cars may make the case but I haven't seen the handling of any vehicle improve by porking up like that.
And while a diesel is heavier than a petrol engine you don't have to carry around three, four, or six hundred pounds of batteries, motors, electronics, and wiring. The mileage on the electric cars may make the case but I haven't seen the handling of any vehicle improve by porking up like that.
I am not saying one is better than the other, but I do prefer hybrids and just love the technology involved with them.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,192
Likes: 3
From: none
So that's what, 10% more per gallon than premium? Once these doggoned high tech diesels get here and we can really see what mileage they get, it may be worthwhile. Maybe it won't. But having the choice is what I want. Once again, I don't see the current success of the hybrid reducing the introduction of viable alternatives to any great extent.
And while a diesel is heavier than a petrol engine you don't have to carry around three, four, or six hundred pounds of batteries, motors, electronics, and wiring. The mileage on the electric cars may make the case but I haven't seen the handling of any vehicle improve by porking up like that.
And while a diesel is heavier than a petrol engine you don't have to carry around three, four, or six hundred pounds of batteries, motors, electronics, and wiring. The mileage on the electric cars may make the case but I haven't seen the handling of any vehicle improve by porking up like that.
Inverter size has shrunk considerably. Look at the Prius and its big shiny silver inverter, then look at the Camry's inverter which looks like a 12V battery.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
From: California
According to carsdirect, the curb weights are; LS460L - 4332lbs, LS600h - 5,049lbs. GS350 - 3795lbs, GS450h - 4134lbs. Camryh - 3680lbs, Camry4cyl - 3285lbs. Very difficult to do direct comparos because they like to put different equipment on different models but I have no idea where you got the idea that a hybrid only adds 99lbs over an equivalent petro model. I am looking more in the LS class and I can tell you that when you get into a corner, you feel everyone of those extra 717lbs as the LS isn't exactly light on its feet to begin with.