Audi new V-6 to be 292hp?
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 261
Likes: 12
From: ca
Originally Posted by XeroK00L
Honda has the NSX and RL that's nearly 300hp. 
Yes, unless other types of 6-cylinder engines are considered. The M3's got 333hp and the 911's and GT3 all got more.
Yes, unless other types of 6-cylinder engines are considered. The M3's got 333hp and the 911's and GT3 all got more.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,813
Likes: 1
From: The Bay Area, CA, USA
Originally Posted by chiawei
The M5 V10 produce 100HP/L and 76.4 LB-FT. The only engine in NA form that comes close to it (in fact slightly better ) is the Gallard VAG V10.
(although according to Jeremy Clarkson it's just a glorified VeeDub Beetle
)
Last edited by XeroK00L; Mar 9, 2006 at 03:38 PM.
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 261
Likes: 12
From: ca
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Come now. I also neglect to mention the Audi engine makes the lowest HP *and* torque out of the new Luxo V8 engines, despite making peak HP at the highest RPM.
The Lexus 4.0/4.3L V8 is an old engine, based on the original 4.0L V8 that debuted in 1989, and it's not too fair to compare it's HP to the new engines like the Audi 4.2L.
I mentioned the Lexus 4.3L simply to make a point about displacement and peak RPM ranges.
Hypothetically, if Lexus pushed the 4.3L V8 to make it's peak HP at 6800 RPM, it would likely be at about 350HP.
Fact is, the Audi revs higher than any other luxo V8, because it would otherwise be making an umimpressive, and uncompetitive amount of power if it made peak HP at a lower RPM. This is despite the use of FSI.
The Lexus 4.0/4.3L V8 is an old engine, based on the original 4.0L V8 that debuted in 1989, and it's not too fair to compare it's HP to the new engines like the Audi 4.2L.
I mentioned the Lexus 4.3L simply to make a point about displacement and peak RPM ranges.
Hypothetically, if Lexus pushed the 4.3L V8 to make it's peak HP at 6800 RPM, it would likely be at about 350HP.
Fact is, the Audi revs higher than any other luxo V8, because it would otherwise be making an umimpressive, and uncompetitive amount of power if it made peak HP at a lower RPM. This is despite the use of FSI.
The current BMW V8 despite many iteration actually debuted back in 1994 when the 540i/530i V8 arrived. Through out the year, it was stroked, vanos added, and eventually valvetronics. But it is based on the old 4.0 V8 that made its debut 12 years ago.
BMW has not released new generation of V8, which will come when the new 7 arrives in about 2 years. (the M3 4.0 V8 has no relation with the new V8, the M3 V8 is based on the S85 V10).
The Audi V8 is not entirely new either. The 4.2 V8 40V V8 begin life in 1994 as 4.2L 32 valve on the 94 A8. In fact, they are part of Type 4 family.
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 261
Likes: 12
From: ca
Originally Posted by XeroK00L
I know it's not 5.0L but the Porsche GT's 5.7L V10 produces 605hp @ 8,000rpm. (although according to Jeremy Clarkson it's just a glorified VeeDub Beetle )
(although according to Jeremy Clarkson it's just a glorified VeeDub Beetle )I should probably have said a 5.0L N/A with 100HP/L and cost $100,000 or less. Because we know VAG can build one, Ferrari can build one while sleep walking, Porsche can build one while sleep walking, toyota probably can build one as well.
The only one that come close to match BMW right now would be VAG, since their new RS6 will be a 500HP V10 N/A beast for about the same price. Toyota is probably going to be the 3rd player that can build a V10 5.0 with 500HP sub 100k range. The LS600H would be interesting as we will probably get a look at that V10 concept engine toyota showed a while back.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,813
Likes: 1
From: The Bay Area, CA, USA
Originally Posted by chiawei
The only one that come close to match BMW right now would be VAG, since their new RS6 will be a 500HP V10 N/A beast for about the same price. Toyota is probably going to be the 3rd player that can build a V10 5.0 with 500HP sub 100k range. The LS600H would be interesting as we will probably get a look at that V10 concept engine toyota showed a while back.
And let's not forget Ford's Shelby GR-1 with its 6.4L V10 producing 605hp @ 6,750rpm. Well, maybe that one we can forget.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
I wonder how much torque the engine will make, and at what RPM power will come in.
Audi's FSI technology has not seen any major improvements over the past few years. Toyota has used gasoline Direct Injection for about just as long as VW, and Toyota is already introducing dual fuel injection into its new engines.
Regarding the Q7's 4.2L FSI, why worry about HP/L? HP/L is not that meaningful for production cars, as it gives no indication of fuel economy, overall power, or where the power is made.
The Q7's engine makes 350HP at a rather high 6800RPM. It also makes 325 lb-ft torque at more reasonable 3500RPM. In contrast, that's a bit higher torque than the Lexus 4.3L V8, but the Lexus engine makes it's peak torque at a lower RPM. That's not even counting the fact it's an old engine design, that does not use direct injection.
The Lexus 4.6L V8 will have 380HP made at less than 6800 RPM, and 370 lb-ft of torque likely at a low RPM. If Lexus really wanted to, they probably could have had the 4.6L V8 making 400HP at around 6800 RPM.
Audi's FSI technology has not seen any major improvements over the past few years. Toyota has used gasoline Direct Injection for about just as long as VW, and Toyota is already introducing dual fuel injection into its new engines.
Regarding the Q7's 4.2L FSI, why worry about HP/L? HP/L is not that meaningful for production cars, as it gives no indication of fuel economy, overall power, or where the power is made.
The Q7's engine makes 350HP at a rather high 6800RPM. It also makes 325 lb-ft torque at more reasonable 3500RPM. In contrast, that's a bit higher torque than the Lexus 4.3L V8, but the Lexus engine makes it's peak torque at a lower RPM. That's not even counting the fact it's an old engine design, that does not use direct injection.
The Lexus 4.6L V8 will have 380HP made at less than 6800 RPM, and 370 lb-ft of torque likely at a low RPM. If Lexus really wanted to, they probably could have had the 4.6L V8 making 400HP at around 6800 RPM.
Peak HP is cool, but low end torque is where its at for Luxury cars. That is what the RL lacks and why even with 300hp, its pretty slow for that rating (0-60 in high 6s low 7s). Even Lexus has now discovered this with their new 3.5 V-6.
For high speeds, you do need more HP, for instance that is why the M5 can hit 200mph. It has 500hp and really opens up as speed increases.
Guest
Posts: n/a
http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/troubl...aph.html#4_2v8
You can find Audi torqe/hp graphs there (older engine)
You can find Audi torqe/hp graphs there (older engine)
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,169
Likes: 0
From: None
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Peak HP is cool, but low end torque is where its at for Luxury cars. That is what the RL lacks and why even with 300hp, its pretty slow for that rating (0-60 in high 6s low 7s). Even Lexus has now discovered this with their new 3.5 V-6.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,285
Likes: 0
From: A better place
Originally Posted by jrock65
Err. I know that the 4.3L is an old engine. You're the one that brought it up, not me.
Notice, I said "usually" when I made the high rpm and displacement relationship comment. Old engines with low hp make peak at low rpm, compared to today's engines. That's with most engines, not just Toyota.
Let me put it another way so that you can understand. Among engines that make similar hp/liter, the smaller displacement engine will usually make peak hp at a higher rpm.
You can make all these hypos about Lexus doing this and that, and hp increasing this way and that. I'm sure they can, but all other manufacturers can as well.
Fact is, the Audi V8 makes impressive power for an engine of its size.
Notice, I said "usually" when I made the high rpm and displacement relationship comment. Old engines with low hp make peak at low rpm, compared to today's engines. That's with most engines, not just Toyota.
Let me put it another way so that you can understand. Among engines that make similar hp/liter, the smaller displacement engine will usually make peak hp at a higher rpm.
You can make all these hypos about Lexus doing this and that, and hp increasing this way and that. I'm sure they can, but all other manufacturers can as well.
Fact is, the Audi V8 makes impressive power for an engine of its size.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,285
Likes: 0
From: A better place
Originally Posted by chiawei
Show me a V10 with 5.0 NA (save the gallardo) that makes 500HP and rev to 8200 RPM. As displacement increases the vibration and noise control difficulties increases exponentially, especially for NA engines.
Which MB engine at 5.0 displacement can compare? Please enlighten me? The S550 has a 5.5 L DoHC V8 that produces 382 HP and 391lb-ft @ 2800 RPM. 69.45HP/L 71.09lb-ft/L
The 550i's V8 produces 360HP@6300 RPM and 360lb-ft@3600 RPM. 75HP/L 75LB-FT/L
The M5 V10 produce 100HP/L and 76.4 LB-FT. The only engine in NA form that comes close to it (in fact slightly better ) is the Gallard VAG V10. There is no other 5.0 naturally aspirated V8 or V10 that comes to close to it.
The current Lexus V8 at 4.3 making 300 HP is good but not great. Consider that lexus never re-rated the engine under the new standard. The GS430 is not making 300 HP per new standard (the new 06 GS went on sale before the new standard take place, and the 06 LS did get revised output down to 278HP, or a 12 HP decrease). 67.44HP/L 75.56lb-ft/L. The HP peak is 5600 RPM, and torque peak is @3400 RPM. So in reality compare to the BMW V8, it is on par on the torque but lacks in HP.
In other word, under the new SAE specification. The GS430 is probably at most making 290HP out of its V8. Which is less than a 4.4L V8 on the 545i.
The new LS460 V8 makes 380HP/370lb-ft with direct injection, which is quiet good and impressive. 82HP/L 80.4LB-FT/L. When IS350 was introduced. The torque is only at 277LB-Ft at high of 4800 RPM. In fact none of the torque peak on the new 3.5L DOHC V6 arrives before 4500 RPM. It remain to be seen how flat the torque curve is and peak RPM for the new 4.6 V8. But i wouldn't be surpised to find out that the 4.6V8 has peak torque north of 4500 RPM. Not to mention the peak power will probably come at north of 6000 RPM as well.
The only way that lexus has been able to squeeze more power like BMW has been doing is to increase the rev as well as compression ratio.
BTW, it is much more difficult to squeeze 100HP/L out of a 5.0 V10 than it is to squeeze 100HP/L out of a 4 banger. There are much less issue to deal with such as noise, vibration, and heat dissipation.
Which MB engine at 5.0 displacement can compare? Please enlighten me? The S550 has a 5.5 L DoHC V8 that produces 382 HP and 391lb-ft @ 2800 RPM. 69.45HP/L 71.09lb-ft/L
The 550i's V8 produces 360HP@6300 RPM and 360lb-ft@3600 RPM. 75HP/L 75LB-FT/L
The M5 V10 produce 100HP/L and 76.4 LB-FT. The only engine in NA form that comes close to it (in fact slightly better ) is the Gallard VAG V10. There is no other 5.0 naturally aspirated V8 or V10 that comes to close to it.
The current Lexus V8 at 4.3 making 300 HP is good but not great. Consider that lexus never re-rated the engine under the new standard. The GS430 is not making 300 HP per new standard (the new 06 GS went on sale before the new standard take place, and the 06 LS did get revised output down to 278HP, or a 12 HP decrease). 67.44HP/L 75.56lb-ft/L. The HP peak is 5600 RPM, and torque peak is @3400 RPM. So in reality compare to the BMW V8, it is on par on the torque but lacks in HP.
In other word, under the new SAE specification. The GS430 is probably at most making 290HP out of its V8. Which is less than a 4.4L V8 on the 545i.
The new LS460 V8 makes 380HP/370lb-ft with direct injection, which is quiet good and impressive. 82HP/L 80.4LB-FT/L. When IS350 was introduced. The torque is only at 277LB-Ft at high of 4800 RPM. In fact none of the torque peak on the new 3.5L DOHC V6 arrives before 4500 RPM. It remain to be seen how flat the torque curve is and peak RPM for the new 4.6 V8. But i wouldn't be surpised to find out that the 4.6V8 has peak torque north of 4500 RPM. Not to mention the peak power will probably come at north of 6000 RPM as well.
The only way that lexus has been able to squeeze more power like BMW has been doing is to increase the rev as well as compression ratio.
BTW, it is much more difficult to squeeze 100HP/L out of a 5.0 V10 than it is to squeeze 100HP/L out of a 4 banger. There are much less issue to deal with such as noise, vibration, and heat dissipation.
Do not forget the BMW V10 is a Direct Injection engine. The Benz 5.5L V8 also does not have as advanced intake and injection systems as the BMW V10. Plus the torque comes in at a lower RPM than the BMW. You're comparing two different kinds of engines, one designed for silky smooth power delivery and quiet operation, while the other is designed for all out performance, without a lot priority on refinement or quiet operation.
Yes, the Lexus 4.3L is good but not great. That's because it's based on an engine design that dates back to the 80s.
Plus, why are you using HP/L?What is with people using this all the time? It is a pointless characteristic to be basing arguments on. It is better to look at the big picture, of overall performance, power figures, torque curves.
You're also not mentioning the small fact of fuel economy. The 4.6L Lexus V8 is expected to have best-in-class fuel economy, due to it's dual fuel injection system. The IS350 right now near the top of its class in fuel economy.
Looks like you have not seen the power curves for the IS350. The torque curve of the 3.5L 2GR-FSE frankly shames a lot of V8 engines, not even talking about V8 engines. The IS350's engine continues to produce high torque when engines like Nissan's VQ begin to taper off, and at high RPM, the IS350 even produces more torque than Lexus' own 4.3L V8. The IS350's engine produces over 250 lb-ft torque at 2K RPM, and at 6000 RPM is still producing above 250 lb-ft torque, and even at 6500 RPM, there is 250 lb-ft torque being produced. Torque only begins to taper off beyond 6500 RPM. Can you name me any other V6 with such an unusual torque curve? Peak torque for the IS350 is not very important, simply because of the flat torque curve all the way through the rev range. Ward's themselves said IS350 engine is new standard for refinement, performance, and efficiency among high output V6 engines.
http://wardsauto.com/microsites/News...1004&siteid=26
Here is also, if you like to see, the IS350's torque and power curve. Check pg.2 and pg. 3 of this thread.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...0&page=2&pp=15
Lexus right now is squeezing more power out if it's engine first thanks to new engine designs, and also to dual fuel injection. Lexus does not need to use high RPM for high power, it is using technology to achieve high power instead. Only high RPM Lexus engine will be LF-A V10. That is expected to exceed the power output of BMW V10, with likely smaller displacement.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,285
Likes: 0
From: A better place
Originally Posted by chiawei
Lexus V8 is not the oldest of the bunch.
The current BMW V8 despite many iteration actually debuted back in 1994 when the 540i/530i V8 arrived. Through out the year, it was stroked, vanos added, and eventually valvetronics. But it is based on the old 4.0 V8 that made its debut 12 years ago.
BMW has not released new generation of V8, which will come when the new 7 arrives in about 2 years. (the M3 4.0 V8 has no relation with the new V8, the M3 V8 is based on the S85 V10).
The Audi V8 is not entirely new either. The 4.2 V8 40V V8 begin life in 1994 as 4.2L 32 valve on the 94 A8. In fact, they are part of Type 4 family.
The current BMW V8 despite many iteration actually debuted back in 1994 when the 540i/530i V8 arrived. Through out the year, it was stroked, vanos added, and eventually valvetronics. But it is based on the old 4.0 V8 that made its debut 12 years ago.
BMW has not released new generation of V8, which will come when the new 7 arrives in about 2 years. (the M3 4.0 V8 has no relation with the new V8, the M3 V8 is based on the S85 V10).
The Audi V8 is not entirely new either. The 4.2 V8 40V V8 begin life in 1994 as 4.2L 32 valve on the 94 A8. In fact, they are part of Type 4 family.
I did not know Audi engine was that old. Thank for the correction. But it still is younger engine than the Lexus V8 design.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 0
From: Maryland
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Plus, why are you using HP/L?What is with people using this all the time? It is a pointless characteristic to be basing arguments on. It is better to look at the big picture, of overall performance, power figures, torque curves.
that has little relevance in the real world. You're right. Things like the overall torque curve and shape, and physical size, shape, and weight of the engine, and part-load efficiency all matter a ton more.As for the age of the engines in question, the Chevy small block architecture is 50 years old and they're still great engines. LS1 = 350hp and 29 mpg hwy. It's also very lightweight (all aluminum), fits in a very small space thanks to the compact nature of pushrod V engines, can be swapped into almost anything (RX-7), is incredibly efficient at part-load operation, and is dirt cheap to manufacture also. Not bad for a 50 year old architecture.
Please don't say that it sucks just because it has low HP/L.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,169
Likes: 0
From: None
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Again, I don't see what's THAT impressive about the Audi engine
Those other V8's are impressive engines to me, and so is the Audi 4.2L V8.
Last edited by jrock65; Mar 15, 2006 at 06:40 AM.
