mmarshall

Since the Avalon thread generated so much controversy on the car, so many responses, and so many comparisons to the ES330, in order to keep the confusion down a little and keep everyone more or less on one topic, I'm going to start a new thread SPECIFICALLY for an Avalon-ES330 comparison, especially for those of you who, like me, have seen, examined, and test-driven both cars.

I'll start out by giving the ES330 the nod for interior quality, where it has a BIG edge, especially in general quality of materials and trim. It has folding outside mirrors compared to the Avalon's fixed ones. It also has a better paint finish, a better warranty, slightly better ride and noise level, especially compared to the stiffer Avalon Touring, and easier-to-use controls.
The Avalon, however, gets points for an excellent powertrain, brakes, and headlights.....the ones on the ES are hideous and go WAY too far back up the hood.
Both cars have a nice (and similiar) set of gauges and sound systems....but the Avalon's, IMO, is too unconventional...the sound controls are low on the dash under a folding panel (or on the steering wheel) and the readouts are way up high on the dash near the windshield.
And they both come in pretty much the same exterior colors...with a unique light silver-green metallic not seen on many cars today.

So....Which car would YOU choose?
For my money..................the ES, hands-down, even with its lower power, ugly headlights, and higher price. The better ride and interior IMO is worth it.

RA40

iTrader: (6)

I'm going to have to revisit this and see if the '05 Avalons are readily available.

I've driven the '00-'04 Avalons for test rides and have had loaner '03 and '04 ES's. The '04 ES I had for 6 days. It is a close comparison IMO. Little Lexus things which I've become accustomed are nice touches. OTOH, I really liekd the space of the Avalon. If I could drive an Avalon for 6 days or so, then I'd be sure which one.

For styling as bulky as the Avalon is, I tend to like it over the ES. What also is in the back of my mind is this particular Toyota Dealer has treated me very well over the last 10 years and especially the service dept.

doug_999

I'm wondering how many people actually crosss shop them? They are two different sizes, and have two very different segments. From the pictures of the new Avalon interior however, I think it rates up there with the ES in terms of interior quality.

LexFather

Stuck, great thread. I also checked out the new Avalon and mmarshall pretty much hit the nail on the head. Its a pretty big car inside and out and the looks are perfect for this segment, not obtrusive, not ugly. The pics are on the money, the interior is well put together. This is a "toyota"? It clearly is the flagship, not just for Toyota but any non-luxury brand. Its that good.

As for the ES, I was at the dealer just yesterday and there was a new ES parked next to the new GS. And the ES interior is still amazing to me for the money. Nothing still comes close. Real wood, the aluminum trim, its so well put together. You can see that Lexus really puts effort to seperate the cars from Toyota. Is all in the details.

Also being at the TOyota dealer, its no match for a Lexus dealer. The people were friendly but the inside and service area shame in comparison. No free drinks . loaners etc.

mmarshall

Yes, they should be there by now......unless your dealership for some reason just didn't order any yet. They have been coming into most dealerships for a few weeks now.
If you prefer a softer-riding car with traditional American-style interior, look at the XLS or Limited model. If you prefer a little firmer feel and the high-tech look inside with brushed metal trim, look at the Touring model.
If you're just CHEAP, look at the base car..................just kidding.

gs400998

I picked the Avalon XLS back in 01 instead of ES300 because it has more interior room, similar acceleration numbers, gas mileage, FWD, and reliability as the ES. The ES has better leather, real wood but the XLS is lower in price. The new Avalon now has more HP under the hood and it looks better than my 01 Avalon. If I have to pick between the new Avalon and the ES300, I would pick the Avalon again.

mmarshall

There's no question the Avalon has a nice powertrain. The XLS I drove had a slight bump in the 1-2 shift but otherwise the tranny was as smooth as butter. And the 280 HP / 260 ft.-lb. torque will get the car out of its own way. Still think the interior looked and felt cheap on all the versions, though well-assembled, and I've seen better-looking wood trim on pencil sharpeners from Wal-Mart.
The first Avalon was very impressive and felt solid (some close friends of mine bought one) but in some ways was cheapened from the first to the second-generation model (except for more power, and even more with this model) but the rest of the car IMO has not yet completely recovered.
Perhaps some of this is intentional......Toyota obviously does not want to take away sales from its own sister ES330.....no doubt it wants this car to instead be a move-up car for Camry owners.

RA40

iTrader: (6)

LOL, that's me!

My view is that Toyota is trying to build in value while staying shy of the ES. In another aspect, the "Toyota" name settles the dust when it comes to some pre-conceived notion about snooty car drivers. It is funny to see the reaction when talking about cars...Toyota has yet to evoke the same responses that "Lexus" does. Of course that is part of it when you do spend upwards of $50K to some extent.

I'll have some relevant comments once I've gone in and taken an '05 Avalon XLS out.

My third car option when I was shopping at the time was an '02 or '03 XLS. The '03's were coming onto the lots in numbers while there were a few '02 strays that the dealer was looking to move.

Falcon LS

I second that.

GGPIS3

i think the 05 avalon is above the ES... the ES should be compared to the Camry XLE.

Falcon LS

Not sure I agree with that one...there's a world of a difference between the Camry and the Avalon.

GFerg

This isnt a comparison between the two cars, however, I thought this was probably one of the most unbiased reviews(of the Avalon) I have read in awhile. Even though I might not totally agree with some of his opinions, at least he was in full detail and pointed out the strengths and weaknesses and elaborated on them.

Capsule- 2005 Toyota Avalon Limited

Strong Points: Impeccable powertrain. Unimaginable seats. Phenomenal Audio

Weak Points: Apathetic styling. Lethargic steering. Couch-potato handling. Unexpected ergonomics.

The Verdict: A passenger sedan so preoccupied with being good that it’s afraid to be great.

Introduction

The first 2005 Toyota Avalons are now arriving on dealership lots. So far, I've been surprised that the cash-in-fist are still lining up for the Tacomas, and not the Avalons, though I doubt they'll have the lot life that the handful of remaining '04’s have had.

My example is a gleaming black '05 Limited. We've all seen the pictures, and many of us have seen them in person, but auto show security staffs have some kind of prejudice against people with green heads, just because they eat velvet rope like some people bite their nails. This was my first chance to see one up close.

Styling

My impression of the Avalon from the outside was just that. The Avalon is styled to impress, not to enthuse. The downward sloping tail, horizontal creases, and thick A- and C-pillars are all designed to add enough visual length and mass to remind the viewer that this is no longer a warmed-over Camry. The Avalon is designed to make the customer see size and quality, something that I'll be griping about quite a bit in the future, since there's not even the slightest attempt at automotive beauty here.

From the front, the Avalon's hallmark is the large grille, which, again, is more about presence than passion. The three body-colored bars have chrome edges, and, for what it's worth, it will look just as good in five years as it does now. Overall, the Avalon is styled so that it looks more like a good car than a good-looking car. Songs will never be written about it, and posters of it will never adorn bedroom walls. Yes, it’s an Avalon, for crying out loud, but couldn’t they have done something to make it prettier?

Interior

This “rogue website” is about to hand Toyota a dose of reality that it won’t get anywhere else. Toyota is used to getting away with everything, and the details that are bound to be ignored by the rest of the “unbiased” media are going to show up here. There’s enough to say about the Avalon’s interior to debunk its image of untouchable perfection, and its cabin has many of the same flaws that get GM vehicles nit-picked into oblivion. There are plenty of good things to talk about too, and I'll also give you my take on those. Just remember what Ghrankenstein had to say when you read from the “legitimate” press, especially Edmunds and Consumer Reports, as they and coo and fawn over their new baby.

The seats in my $36,000 Avalon Limited were like some kind of dream; they’re almost cloudlike in their comfort. The perforated leather is soft to the point of creaminess, and yet clingy enough to make up for the seats’ relative lack of bolstering. With the tilt/telescoping steering wheel, and the Limited’s power seat cushion extender, I was able to find a near-perfect driving position in seconds. In my $36,000 car, though, I want my heated/cooled seats to have a steeper cushion-tilt adjustment, and I’d be willing to give up the cooling elements that probably impede that motion.

The view through the beautiful wood grain steering wheel is clear enough to be able to read the large, electro luminescent gauges. That’s what gauges are for, and I have no complaints. I assume the wood grain trim pieces are real, but I don’t care if they’re fake. Faux wood trim usually only gets complaints if it’s in GM vehicles, even though modern manufacturing processes make real and fake wood virtually indistinguishable. (see sidebar)

The dash is still low and expansive, but it doesn’t seem to add the sense of room that I felt in the ’04 Avalon, where all the gauges and readouts and such were faired in under a dash-width cowling. I could care less, though. This is an attractive, and highly functional, if uninspiring dash.

When I get to the “information center” and center stack controls is when things start bugging me. My opinions about Navigation Systems, and how I hate them, are certainly not universal, but GMI readers should already know my predisposition against them. One of our Avalons has the Nav (and a sticker price north of $38,000), but the one I drove didn’t. I’ll let the pro-Nav constituency determine its own opinion about the Avalon’s system, and how it’s positioned far enough away from the driver to necessitate a joystick instead of a touch-screen.

Whether the Avalon has a Nav system or not, my Limited had a large center-dash LCD display that shows information for both the dual-zone climate control and the radio. It’s no I-drive, but it wasn’t intuitive enough for me to jump right in and start using it. The steering wheel has controls for most of the HVAC and audio functions, but I had trouble switching into the right “mode” to work them when I wanted to. I’m fairly technologically inclined, and the fact that I couldn’t figure it all out in a five-minute window doesn’t bode well for the bluehairs that will soon be driving their new Avalons home. Another footnote is that the HVAC’s slick new touch-pad controls look great, but they're a long reach, and some of the controls on the driver’s side are obscured by the steering wheel.

My biggest gripe are the satin-silver doors that cover the head unit and cassette deck. I can’t stand them. The intent, of course, is to “clean up” the look of an indecipherable maze of audio controls in hopes that they’ll go away. The downside is that they not only make the audio controls harder to reach, but they add a decidedly fiddly step in accessing them. The option is either to leave them open and face a veritable bukkake of bad Feng Shui, or close them knowing that you’re just going to have to open them again at some point in the near future. Somebody’s going to have a wreck fussing over them, take my word on it.

The 12-speaker, 360 watt JBL “Synthesis” stereo is nothing short of incredible, and I don’t have to say anything else beyond the fact that my ancient Metal Church (The Human Factor) cassette hasn’t sounded so lifelike in years. When competitors start fielding stereo systems like this, it’s hard to declare anyone a winner but the customer.

I won’t ignore the Avalon’s numerous safety features completely, but simply listing them here doesn’t do much good. My one comment is that the Avalon’s standard lower-dash knee airbags have been the target of concern, for protecting the driver’s knees at the at the expense of causing more serious hip injuries. If Toyota can alleviate that concern, I’ll give them their due for adding yet another valuable safety feature.

I mentioned before that Avalon’s interior trim is not perfect, and here’s what you’ll probably read nowhere else: If you look for faults in the trim, you’ll find them, and a fortunate examination of a LaCrosse CXL this morning yielded better, if less ambitious, assembly than what I see in the Avalon.

AdmiralViscen, in one of the Buick LaCrosse threads, has already pointed out the most notable bogey: the noticeable gap between the dash and the front doors. Normally, I wouldn’t care a whole lot, but Toyota’s made a name for itself on fit, and the less-roguish press has jumped right on that bandwagon. It’s not the atrocity seen in base Cobalts, but you’ll see smaller gaps in the LaCrosse, the Corolla, and even the Aveo. Furthermore, in a $36,000 car, you expect your interior’s elements to fit as tightly and uniformly as possible. Just as you’ll see in Hondas if you look closely, the trim around the Avalon’s center stack varies in its degree of relief. It’s not much, but if you put the same scrutiny into a Buick LaCrosse or Chevy Malibu, you’d see less variation.

Toyota’s most arrogant move in the Avalon’s interior concerns the surrounds for the HVAC vents. Most manufacturers avoid this potential obstacle by using completely different materials for their HVAC vents, but Toyota uses the same materials, and attempts to mount them flush with the rest of the dash. This is an attempt to make a very bold statement of interior quality, but it's a failure. The seams around the HVAC vents are uneven, and because the texture grains don’t match exactly, the surrounds even come across as looking discolored and cheap.

When you have the chance, check one out and see what I mean. It’s subtle, but it’s there, and you can bet that if the 2006 Impala’s interior is done similarly, you’ll hear it trumpeted coast to coast.

To be continued...

GFerg

Ride and Drive

The ’05 Avalon Limited comes with the same keyless access system found in the Toyota Prius, combining auto-unlock and pushbutton start with remote start. People seem willing to pay for it, but I included keyless access as a “loser” in our 2004 GMI Winners and Losers because starting a car with an ignition key isn’t very hard to begin with. Thus, I find the technology nothing more than useless gadgetry.

Also in the “useless gadgetry” department is the active laser cruise control. Normally I wouldn’t call this technology useless, since it has the potential to add a great deal of convenience to commuter driving, but consider: It has three interval settings (interval between the front of the Avalon, and the back of the car it’s following): 0.5 seconds, 1.5 seconds, and 2.5 seconds. Basically, it has two settings of unnerving “tailgate mode” and one that starts to become useful. Since it takes a driver about a half second to react to anything they see, that 0.5 second margin is not only useless, it’s dangerous to the point that it could cost someone their life.

Contrary to popular belief, the new 3.5L Toyota V-6 is not based on the Lexus 3.3, but instead, the new 4.0L V-6 found in the Tacoma (and Tundra). The biggest advantage over the older Lexus plant is a chain-driven valvetrain instead of a timing belt. Unlike the 4.0L truck engine, the 3.5L cleverly adds sound insulation to the timing chain and its mounts. Dual variable valve timing (intake and exhaust) with intelligence (VVTi) gives the 3.5L a broad, even powerband, impressive fuel economy (EPA 22 city, 31 highway), and the ability to discuss the rise of Protestantism in sixteenth century Europe with the transaxle.

The 3.5L VVTi makes a nicely fluid, organic burble that signals its willingness, but Toyota has gone to great lengths to make sure it minds its manners, and thus the Avalon doesn’t really have the opportunity to sing from the heart. That might be a good thing, because the 3.5L VVTi might be strong, but it doesn’t sound strong, and it might even make the car seem weak if it got any louder. What the engine really deserves, though, is a sporting application (Celica or Supra) that can connect it directly to a deserving enthusiast.

The 3600 lb curb weight is not unreasonable, and with 280 hp (at 6200 rpm) and 260 lb-ft (at 4700 rpm), fed through an electronic 5-speed automatic transaxle, the Avalon has the punch that one would expect.

Or does it?

The intertia of nearly two tons of metal, combined with the 3.5L VVTi’s reduced (vs. the 4.0L) low-end torque means that the Avalon is no screamer from a standing start, and the extra ratio in the transaxle probably does more to help the gas mileage than it does the performance. The Avalon, in full-automatic mode, is far from slow, but it feels less responsive than GM’s supercharged W-bodies. Actual 0-60 numbers should be about the same, in the mid sixes.

Get out on the road, and hanker for some power, and the Avalon can certainly flex its muscles. Shifts are up to the same smooth standard set long ago by the 4T60E, but if you’re driving the Avalon and you want to add some juice, you’ll have to wait patiently just as you would with any slushbox. Versus a 3.8L W-body, Avalon’s on-paper advantage is much stronger than its real-world advantage, and a supercharged W-body would probably have a slight edge in passing power.

Slide the shift lever into sequential mode, which is on the driver’s side of the gate instead of the passenger’s side, and you’ve got a whole new demon on your hands. If you’re looking for perfection in the Avalon, this is where you’ll find it. The electronic-with-intelligence transaxle couples with the engine’s electronic throttle to make manual upshifts so smooth that you’ll almost wonder why you wanted a manual clutch in the first place. Engine speed is so frighteningly well matched with the slap-shift that I was tempted to slap it again, just to see what it would do. The second upshift is just as smooth as the first. Scary.

The manumatic mode is where the 3.5L VVTi really shines. Slap it up a notch before taking a corner and you’ll hear the engine rev, but it’s literally so smooth that the car’s cornering attitude is not upset in the slightest. I’m more seasoned than veteran when it comes to manumatics, but I’ve never experienced anything like it. Punch it on the way out, and the Avalon becomes a dowdy, geriatric missile in its upper rev range.

While talking about engines, I need to bring the Avalon’s plant into context with its GM competition. I’ve already gone on the record as saying that the 3800 Gen III is the wrong engine for the Lucerne CX, and I certainly won’t take that back now. In considering the 3.5 VVTi, though, its higher torque peak will make its horsepower advantage over the CX seem less dominating in real-world driving. The Lucerne’s 4.6L Northstar, with 300 lb-ft at 4000 rpm, should bring a moderate performance advantage and a more premium power-language. The LS4 in the ’06 W-bodies will eat the Avalon’s lunch.

Unfortunately, perfect manumatic upshifts, a willing (if stifled) engine, and a killer stereo are the closest the Avalon Limited gets to being fun to drive. A smooth ride doesn’t necessarily mean bad handling, but the Limited has enough body roll to make quick cornering awkward. The tires don’t squeal, thanks largely to the Avalon’s standard stability control, but the bias here is definitely toward floaty, and away from sporty. The steering is supposed to have variable assist, but I couldn’t feel any differences; it’s all low-effort old-person slow. I found it far too light at all speeds to deliver any appreciable kind of feedback. I’m impressed with the rest of the car enough that I’d like to give an Avalon Touring a try, to see what kind of handling the Avalon can optimally offer, and to see if they did anything about that steering.

Summary

The 2005 Avalon Limited is a very good car, and it will be a strong player in full-size sedan crowd, with its obvious power, safety, and pedigree. Don’t even remotely kid yourself, though, into thinking that the Avalon is either perfect or invincible. It isn’t. The Avalon’s styling is as uninspiring as its handling. Its ergonomics suffer in favor of interior styling. Its interior fit, while very good, leaves enough slack in detail for another automaker to take the throne. Its powertrain is brilliant, but it’s not allowed to speak its mind. As it is, the 2005 Avalon Limited is, true to its brand, so preoccupied with being good that it’s afraid to be great.

Sidebar 1

Modern wood trim and faux wood trim are almost indistinguishable. That’s because the real stuff is now laminated, instead of varnished, for long-term durability. Most faux wood is computer-scanned from actual wood, and then it’s laminated too. I’ve seen both side-by-side (in Southern Coach conversion vans, for example), and they look exactly alike. Get the pixel?

Sidebar 2

The looming 2006 Buick Lucerne will bring some immediate advantages to the table. While the Lucerne’s styling is not of the same caliber as classic Buick, it carries a much stronger outward statement of power and prestige. In the base range, the Lucerne’s standard leather might lure in customers that would have otherwise been turned off by the 3.8. Buick isn’t going to be outclassed by the Avalon’s interior, and might even score a small advantage in interior quality.

In two ’05 Avalons, one topping $36,000, the other over $38,000, Toyota has proven that they can run a price tag well into the Lucerne CXL’s anticipated territory, with a V-6 that will not out compete the Northstar. The Lucerne will probably carry a slightly better audio system, though I doubt I’ll be able to tell much of a difference. The biggest trump card will be the Lucerne’s magnetic ride control, which will give it much more poise than the floundering Avalon can muster with no penalty in ride quality.


Don’t count Buick out just yet.