I admire a light weight car. It seems the LS is lighter than most cars in it's class, and even lighter than smaller cars like the A6 and new RL.

What is the secret?

 

Of the two you mentioned, most of what you are seeing is the drivetrain penalty. AWD is a traction aid. If you are not traction limited, it is a performance liability due to the exra weight.

 

Well the 745i 43xx lbs

Phaeton 52xx - 53xx lbs

 

7 series has not, is not, and probably never will be a lightweight. Phaeton is VWs first attempt and it isn't light either but then, once again, the driveline works against it. The LS isn't exactly a lightweight at two tons but maybe you need to focus on why the other cars are so porky rather than what magic Toyota knows.

Fascination with electronics and how you implement it can start to be a concern. Modern supercomputers are getting to the point where the floors can't handle the weight of the cables used to interconnect the various components. The Germans have a big fascination with electronics and that copper starts to add up. But the truth is that probably Toyota has a much more integrated approach to the design of the car than the other makers. This allows everybody to equally share the pain of keeping the weight off rather than try to compromise something later on.

 

A lot of it has to go into Leuxs trying to make the LS perfect. The LS is considered by many, the perfect car. No flaws. Since fuel economy is chased by Lexus, low weight is needed to achieve these targets. It just goes to show how overweight these cars are and really, how fun can a car be weighing 2 tons (for those saying the LS is too boring).
The All aluminum A8 is a porker too, which is surprising. The Xj jag is only 3800lbs, putting its aluminum to good use.

 

Isn't the Q45 also in the 4,000 lb neighborhood with the LS? I hate to defend some of these cars but for solidity, it is hard to beat heft. Merc's had this for years. Unfortunately new Mercs still need low carbs but it hasn't kept them from losing some of that solid feel. But like I said, I am actually less impressed with Lexus (and Jag and Infiniti if I am right) as much as I am disappointed with bimmer, Merc, VW, Audi, etc., for putting those pounds on. I can justify some of it with AWD, let's just be intelligent here, AWD takes more pounds to do right than RWD or FWD. But that weight gets very noticeable in vehicle dyamics if not the gas pump. I may not be a fan of AWD for me but if you need it, just admit that it will have more weight than most 2WD setups. Having said that, more sacrilege for this site, the cars that impressed me with interiors and build quality, other than Lexus, were Audi and Subaru. If I were looking for a non SUV AWD, Subaru would definitely be on my list. Boy have they improved their cars.

 

are you seriously telling me that the newer LS's weigh as much as my ES250 at 4,012 lbs (according to the door sticker)?

 

I donno but "door sticker" may mean a lot of things, it may be GVW which is weight of car and passangers. That's what I'd guess.

EDIT: the ES250 curb weight is 3164 so I gues if you put 4-5 people it's maximum weight is 4100 lbs So the LS weighs 800-900 lbs more.

 

yeah that the GVW.

still a heavy car for its size...

 

Holy smoke you had a lot of miles on your Contour. How do you get so many miles?

 

The Q45 is around 4k lbs. I agree, Merc doors and BMW doors to slam with authority. Especialy the older doors. Its their electronic gizmos. It adds tons of weight. And the LS 430 is no longer than a LS 400 from 14 years ago, it is taller and wider. The Benz and 7 etc are much, much longer in standard wheelbase let alone extended versions. Yes, AWD will weigh more than RWD/FWD. But even the S4, a very small car, is 3800lbs and I want to say with the S4 vert, it is a 4000lbs car, which kills any offset of the larger engine.

Suburu is on a roll.

 

I have absolutely no backup for this comment at all but I wonder if some of the pork on the bimmer isn't due to Prince Bangle. The 5 series body really fascinated me with all the surfaces that it has. I wonder if there is a price to be paid for that complex metal rather than a simpler approach. One thing I know for sure, I would not want to be the poor soul in the body shop who has to straighten one of those things out. I guess you just replace whatever body panels you can but that is not going to make low insurance premiums (OK, I know bimmers don't exactly get Saturn rates anyway). And I thought the A8 would be a problem getting repaired.

Audi's have always had to be aware of the fact that in a comparable hp test, they come up slower in 0-60 and 1/4 mile. Just a price to be paid. Now putting power down when there isn't good traction or coming out of a turn, the Audi gets it back, but those all important 0-60 times just don't look so good because nobody generates them in Minnesota in January. Also generally a mileage penalty to be paid for the additional driveline losses. Nothing is free. Of course I am probably wrong with that comment when it comes to hybrids. I have a feeling that the reason a lot of the hybrids will be AWD is because the electric motor will just drive one set of wheels.

I know it is off thread but yeah, the new Subarus are very impressive. If they get market traction, there is a serious competitor for Toyota. And with their price point, Audi will be hurting.

 

Audi, though much improved, still feels the affects of the 60 minutes/unintended acceleration fiasco. Audis A4 of 10 years ago really turned things around but Audi may never get its prestige back in the USA. Especially since Lexus came along.
Fernidad Piech's issue with Audi was what was the point? BMW was sporty, Benz was luxury, Audi was seen as having nice interiors. He hated the bland style (to him) and pitted them against BMW. Thus the S and RS cars coming here.
It just shows how crowded the luxury market is. There are really no bad players.

If Suburu keeps it up providing new, sporting cars with nice designs, they may indeed replace AUDI.

 

I think Audi will always retain its place; never do I see a Japanese marque completely bumping out the original German luxury marks.

Subaru and Audi are two totally different interpretations of basically the same concept -

AWD handling/active safety and luxury or near-luxury amenities - all while remaining at least fairly attainable.

M.

 

For the sake of a debate, Suburu Legacy GT or A43.0?