How to diagnose between starter or solenoid as problem?
#16
I think this is an absolutely terrible idea!!
Mainly because, if he takes this advice...*I'm* the gonna be the "someone" with his head stuck under JohnnyCake's car while he's cranking it!!
...And I've already climbed inside his trunk. I think that's enough for one friendship.
Mainly because, if he takes this advice...*I'm* the gonna be the "someone" with his head stuck under JohnnyCake's car while he's cranking it!!
...And I've already climbed inside his trunk. I think that's enough for one friendship.
What do you think is going to happen? Flames will jump out? The engine will blow up?
If you are worried, then you turn the key and let him stick his head under the hood to listen.
Other than keeping fingers, long hair and clothing away from moving parts (belts, pulleys, fan blades) and not touching the battery terminals or exposed hot surfaces there really is a no great danger under the hood.
I won't ask what you were doing in his trunk ................
#17
You're right about that. If the starter motor is connected to the battery, even if the battery is low, it would suck the life out of it and the lights would dim, the solenoid would drop out, and the sequence would probably start all over again.
It could be a bad solenoid not passing juice to the starter motor, the wiring to the starter motor or the motor itself. There's not much else.
It could be a bad solenoid not passing juice to the starter motor, the wiring to the starter motor or the motor itself. There's not much else.
If the brushes in the starter motor do not make contact with the commutator the INTERNAL circuit in the starter motor is not complete and no current will be drawn from the battery and thus no dimming of the lights.
Just a click. That's it.
#18
Lexus Test Driver
Not true. When the solenoid closes it completes the circuit to deliver voltage across the leads of the starter motor.
If the brushes in the starter motor do not make contact with the commutator the INTERNAL circuit in the starter motor is not complete and no current will be drawn from the battery and thus no dimming of the lights.
Just a click. That's it.
If the brushes in the starter motor do not make contact with the commutator the INTERNAL circuit in the starter motor is not complete and no current will be drawn from the battery and thus no dimming of the lights.
Just a click. That's it.
My second paragraph states that the problem could be the solenoid, the wiring to the motor or the motor itself (including bad brushes or commutator).
#19
I was confused because you were responding to the earlier poster stating that the lights must dim if the battery is weak. You stated "if the motor were connected to the battery" which seemed to be an elementary way of describing the circuit, and led me to believe you thought the motor was always in the circuit.
Further confusing was your first paragraph where you say you assumed the motor is good, and if voltage is delivered to the motor it will present a load to the battery and dim the lights, in spite of the fact that the OP states he hears a click (which one would assume is the solenoid engaging and delivering voltage) and he also claims there is no dimming of the lights (one would assume this means no starter motor load). Confusing when you ignored the OPs description.
Then in the second paragraph you state it could be the solenoid (OP states he hears it every time the car doesn't start) the wiring to the motor (unlikely because most of the time the car does start) or the motor itself.
I assume you agree with me that the starter motor itself is the likely failure mode IF the click the OP hears is the solenoid engaging.
#20
Racer
Thread Starter
I continue to have this problem every few months. I think this thread has one of the best discussions I've read to help diagnose a "no crank" but "good battery" problem.
Here's something I just learned that might be helpful in determining whether the ignition switch or the park/neutral safety switch is part of the problem.
If the park/neutral safety switch is not enabled, then upon turning the key, the lights on the NAV and climate control will go off (NAV power cycles), BUT the dash lights stay on.
If the park/neutral switch is engaged (i.e. you are in park/neutral and the car knows that), turning the key will cause the dash lights and the NAV and the climate control to go dark during the key turn process.
I think this helps diagnose as follows.
Turn key:
1. If no change in any lights (dash/NAV/Climate) = ignition switch itself is bad.
2. If NAV/Climate lights go out, but dash light stays on = park/neutral safety switch is not engaged (i.e. car does not think it is in park/neutral) but ignition switch is good
3. All lights go out, still no crank = something farther down the line, but safety switch and ignition switch are good.
Here's something I just learned that might be helpful in determining whether the ignition switch or the park/neutral safety switch is part of the problem.
If the park/neutral safety switch is not enabled, then upon turning the key, the lights on the NAV and climate control will go off (NAV power cycles), BUT the dash lights stay on.
If the park/neutral switch is engaged (i.e. you are in park/neutral and the car knows that), turning the key will cause the dash lights and the NAV and the climate control to go dark during the key turn process.
I think this helps diagnose as follows.
Turn key:
1. If no change in any lights (dash/NAV/Climate) = ignition switch itself is bad.
2. If NAV/Climate lights go out, but dash light stays on = park/neutral safety switch is not engaged (i.e. car does not think it is in park/neutral) but ignition switch is good
3. All lights go out, still no crank = something farther down the line, but safety switch and ignition switch are good.
#21
Your logic makes sense.
The ECM uses relays to remove the most or all electrical loads during starting to be able to devote the bulk of the battery voltage to the starter motor.
If the click you are hearing is the solenoid engaging, I still think it is the starter motor brushes which are making an intermittent connection. Only strange part is that your example appears to be remaining very intermittent. Most times once starter motor brushes start to exhibit signs of wear and intermittent starting they get progressively worse, with non-starting episodes growing more common.
It is a shame that the engine bay holds "ten pounds in an eight pound bag" and the starter is so inaccessible. Makes me pine for the old American cars where checking the voltage on the starter was just sliding under the car and changing the starter was child's play.
The ECM uses relays to remove the most or all electrical loads during starting to be able to devote the bulk of the battery voltage to the starter motor.
If the click you are hearing is the solenoid engaging, I still think it is the starter motor brushes which are making an intermittent connection. Only strange part is that your example appears to be remaining very intermittent. Most times once starter motor brushes start to exhibit signs of wear and intermittent starting they get progressively worse, with non-starting episodes growing more common.
It is a shame that the engine bay holds "ten pounds in an eight pound bag" and the starter is so inaccessible. Makes me pine for the old American cars where checking the voltage on the starter was just sliding under the car and changing the starter was child's play.
#22
Driver School Candidate
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Starter or solenoid ?
I have taking all of your suggests and I'm clueless. New starter, new alternator, new ground cable and new battery car still will not start? Everything powers on the inside but no start? What should i do next other than part out my baby?
#23
Racer
Thread Starter
1. Is there any change in any lights (dash/NAV/Climate)?
2. If NAV/Climate lights go out, do the dash lights stays on?
#24
Racer
Thread Starter
Turn key
Click
Headlights do not dim at all
No crank
This has happened three times now, about a month to six weeks apart. Eventually it starts exactly like normal. I can't put my finger on exactly what I did between "not crank" and "crank like normal" but it wasn't anything significant, that's for sure.
Tonight I cleaned the battery terminals, but they actually looked very good. Looking back, I should have checked how tight they were before taking the cable off, but I didn't. Not sure whether a loose cable could explain these symptoms.
I was thinking this was starter or solenoid? Any thoughts on which? Any other diagnosis consistent with the symptoms?
Click
Headlights do not dim at all
No crank
This has happened three times now, about a month to six weeks apart. Eventually it starts exactly like normal. I can't put my finger on exactly what I did between "not crank" and "crank like normal" but it wasn't anything significant, that's for sure.
Tonight I cleaned the battery terminals, but they actually looked very good. Looking back, I should have checked how tight they were before taking the cable off, but I didn't. Not sure whether a loose cable could explain these symptoms.
I was thinking this was starter or solenoid? Any thoughts on which? Any other diagnosis consistent with the symptoms?
#25
Lead Lap
Isn't the solenoid part of the starter? So how long did it take before you finally got to the bottom of it?
Glad that you got it resolved.
Glad that you got it resolved.
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10-21-14 05:12 AM