10,000 Mile Oil Intervals on ANY LS460
05-26-15, 02:47 PM
#46
And I doubt that happens in an engine that has reached proper operating temps and certainly not in a year. But that's why an UOA is invaluable. There is lots of discussion on this at BITOG.
Some guys are running oil for 2-3 years in their classic Mustangs and the like, but not putting many miles on it. Their UOA's are good. That said, yearly changes are what I'd be comfortable with, especially when the price of a change is reasonable. But just for the hell of it, I'd spring for a 25 dollar analysis on a year old oil just to see.
Some guys are running oil for 2-3 years in their classic Mustangs and the like, but not putting many miles on it. Their UOA's are good. That said, yearly changes are what I'd be comfortable with, especially when the price of a change is reasonable. But just for the hell of it, I'd spring for a 25 dollar analysis on a year old oil just to see.
The Effects of Oxidation - What to Look for on an Oil Analysis Report
While controlling temperature and using higher-quality base oils can help limit the degree and rate of oxidation, the eventual breakdown of the base oil molecules due to oxidative processes is inevitable. When this occurs, a number of oxygenated by-products are formed as illustrated in Figure 2. One common feature of these reaction by-products is the carbon-oxygen double bonds, termed a carbonyl group. Carbonyl groups are noted for their characteristic absorption of infrared light in the 1740 cm-1 region. For this reason, Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR), which measures the degree of infrared absorption in different parts of the infrared spectrum, can be an excellent tool for pinpointing base oil oxidation (Figure 4).
Perhaps the most noteworthy of the reaction by-products are the carboxylic acids. As the name implies, carboxylic acids are acidic in nature, just like other more common acids such as sulfuric and hydrochloric acids, although they are not nearly as strong. Common household vinegar contains carboxylic acid - an acetic acid. Because oil oxidation results in the formation of carboxylic acids, it stands to reason that the acidity of an oil that has undergone appreciable oxidation will increase. As such, an Acid Number test, which uses a wet chemistry titration method to determine the concentration of acids present in an oil, can be used to determine the degree to which an oil has oxidized. Care must be exercised when using Acid Number data to gauge oil oxidation because a number of additives - both new and degraded - can result in changes in an oil’s Acid Number and can mask the real effects of base oil oxidation. Similarly, depending on the working environment, certain ingressed contaminants may also cause the acid number to change, masking the effects of oil oxidation. For this reason, the presence of a characteristic infra peak at 1740 cm-1 in the FTIR spectrum can be an instructive piece of confirmatory evidence when assessing oil oxidation.
While carboxylic acids by themselves are bad news and can cause acidic corrosion, an increase in acid number is usually a harbinger (forerunner) of an even more damaging chemical process - the formation of sludge and varnish. Sludge and varnish form when oxygenated reaction by-products, such as hydroperoxides and carboxylic acids, combine to form larger molecular species. When a number of such molecules combine, the process is termed polymerization and results in the formation of large molecules of high molecular weight. Because the viscosity of an oil is directly related to the size of the molecules, any degree of polymerization will result in an increase in the measured viscosity. Allowed to progress too far, polymerization continues to such an extent that solid material - sludge and varnish - forms in the oil, as the molecules become too large to remain a liquid. This material is sticky and can cause filter plugging, fouling of critical oil clearances and valve stiction in hydraulics systems.
While controlling temperature and using higher-quality base oils can help limit the degree and rate of oxidation, the eventual breakdown of the base oil molecules due to oxidative processes is inevitable. When this occurs, a number of oxygenated by-products are formed as illustrated in Figure 2. One common feature of these reaction by-products is the carbon-oxygen double bonds, termed a carbonyl group. Carbonyl groups are noted for their characteristic absorption of infrared light in the 1740 cm-1 region. For this reason, Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR), which measures the degree of infrared absorption in different parts of the infrared spectrum, can be an excellent tool for pinpointing base oil oxidation (Figure 4).
Perhaps the most noteworthy of the reaction by-products are the carboxylic acids. As the name implies, carboxylic acids are acidic in nature, just like other more common acids such as sulfuric and hydrochloric acids, although they are not nearly as strong. Common household vinegar contains carboxylic acid - an acetic acid. Because oil oxidation results in the formation of carboxylic acids, it stands to reason that the acidity of an oil that has undergone appreciable oxidation will increase. As such, an Acid Number test, which uses a wet chemistry titration method to determine the concentration of acids present in an oil, can be used to determine the degree to which an oil has oxidized. Care must be exercised when using Acid Number data to gauge oil oxidation because a number of additives - both new and degraded - can result in changes in an oil’s Acid Number and can mask the real effects of base oil oxidation. Similarly, depending on the working environment, certain ingressed contaminants may also cause the acid number to change, masking the effects of oil oxidation. For this reason, the presence of a characteristic infra peak at 1740 cm-1 in the FTIR spectrum can be an instructive piece of confirmatory evidence when assessing oil oxidation.
While carboxylic acids by themselves are bad news and can cause acidic corrosion, an increase in acid number is usually a harbinger (forerunner) of an even more damaging chemical process - the formation of sludge and varnish. Sludge and varnish form when oxygenated reaction by-products, such as hydroperoxides and carboxylic acids, combine to form larger molecular species. When a number of such molecules combine, the process is termed polymerization and results in the formation of large molecules of high molecular weight. Because the viscosity of an oil is directly related to the size of the molecules, any degree of polymerization will result in an increase in the measured viscosity. Allowed to progress too far, polymerization continues to such an extent that solid material - sludge and varnish - forms in the oil, as the molecules become too large to remain a liquid. This material is sticky and can cause filter plugging, fouling of critical oil clearances and valve stiction in hydraulics systems.
Here is another thread that has a bunch Blackstone reports.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...oa-thread.html
05-26-15, 03:09 PM
#47
Oxidation happens no matter what. Just the natural world we live in. What the rate is depends on many factors.
I'm also not comfortable with the amount of metal in the oil that I see from many others at a 10k OCI. The more metal content the more abrasive the oil becomes and causes additional wear. I'll stick with 7500. Oil is cheap. I would rather play it safe and keep engine wear to a minimum.
Here is another thread that has a bunch Blackstone reports.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...oa-thread.html
I'm also not comfortable with the amount of metal in the oil that I see from many others at a 10k OCI. The more metal content the more abrasive the oil becomes and causes additional wear. I'll stick with 7500. Oil is cheap. I would rather play it safe and keep engine wear to a minimum.
Here is another thread that has a bunch Blackstone reports.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...oa-thread.html
It completely invalidates your argument. Some that show higher metal were cars that were brand new and were breaking in which Blackstone said was completely normal and typical. Universal average is calculated at a certain millage and if the oil has exceeded the average so will the other measurements.
If anything it's a good read to give anyone confidence in doing extended oil changes.
There was one person who went 14k miles with regular oil and the report was not catastrophic but it was taken to the edge without damaging the engine which is quiet impressive.
05-26-15, 03:17 PM
#48
As I mentioned, it is what I am personally comfortable with. The higher the metal content the more an engine will wear. Will there be catastrophic damage at a 10K oci? No. Will the engine wear slightly faster, in my opinion it will. Personally, I don't really understand the need to push the oil to the limits. I would much rather change the oil with 20% life left then push until you add additional wear to the motor.
05-26-15, 04:17 PM
#49
As I mentioned, it is what I am personally comfortable with. The higher the metal content the more an engine will wear. Will there be catastrophic damage at a 10K oci? No. Will the engine wear slightly faster, in my opinion it will. Personally, I don't really understand the need to push the oil to the limits. I would much rather change the oil with 20% life left then push until you add additional wear to the motor.
There will be more iron in a longer interval simply because it's accumulated over the interval as opposed to running a short interval.
You create more wear with frequent oil changes all things being equal and if you combine two short 5k intervals you will have more iron then one long interval.
Your are not "pushing the oil to the limits" , you are getting the benefit of reducing the wear of the motor by running the oil longer into the sweet spot where wear will be the most minimal.
05-26-15, 06:43 PM
#50
Lexus Fanatic
As I mentioned, it is what I am personally comfortable with. The higher the metal content the more an engine will wear. Will there be catastrophic damage at a 10K oci? No. Will the engine wear slightly faster, in my opinion it will. Personally, I don't really understand the need to push the oil to the limits. I would much rather change the oil with 20% life left then push until you add additional wear to the motor.
Also, yes I am aware that oxidation occurs regardless. My point (which I thought I made clear in my post), was that this oxidation was likely a moot point in this case, BUT I also stated that a UOA was a good idea if one had any doubt. I too stated that a 1 year OCI was what I was comfortable with, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if I left it in an extra year...especially with a good UOA.
05-26-15, 08:27 PM
#51
So taking a look at the notes, again, and I know what the universal average means. It even says in the first post comments that if you "use a couple or three short oci you complete the break in process more rapidly." Obviously he would not mention that if it was not better for the engine vs delaying the break in process. Metal content is not a good thing.
Lab post 1:
Hopefully the iron will drop. Probably the engine breaking in.
Lab post 2:
Excessive iron again. Try 7500 OCI.
Lab post 3:
Iron improved but by the posters admission it was all highway miles from a commute across the country. Not his normal drive.
Lab post 4:
Excessive lead. Very high wear.
Lab Post 5:
Excessive metals. Engine breaking in. Try some shorter OCI's
Lab post 6:
High metal content. Excessive wear.
Almost every comment mentioned high metal content. Now, if the engine is new this may well explain the reason but it clear it is not good to run oil with high metal content for extended OCI's as this causes excessive wear. Anyway, it is a personal choice but one thing we do know is that changing the oil in the 5,000 - 7500 range has proven itself. 10k - 15k OCI have not. I find it risky.
Don't forget almost everyone is changing their filter at 5k when doing the 10k OCI.
Lab post 1:
Hopefully the iron will drop. Probably the engine breaking in.
Lab post 2:
Excessive iron again. Try 7500 OCI.
Lab post 3:
Iron improved but by the posters admission it was all highway miles from a commute across the country. Not his normal drive.
Lab post 4:
Excessive lead. Very high wear.
Lab Post 5:
Excessive metals. Engine breaking in. Try some shorter OCI's
Lab post 6:
High metal content. Excessive wear.
Almost every comment mentioned high metal content. Now, if the engine is new this may well explain the reason but it clear it is not good to run oil with high metal content for extended OCI's as this causes excessive wear. Anyway, it is a personal choice but one thing we do know is that changing the oil in the 5,000 - 7500 range has proven itself. 10k - 15k OCI have not. I find it risky.
Don't forget almost everyone is changing their filter at 5k when doing the 10k OCI.
Last edited by Lavrishevo; 05-26-15 at 08:31 PM.
05-26-15, 08:35 PM
#52
Lexus Fanatic
So taking a look at the notes, again, and I know what the universal average means. It even says in the first post comments that if you "use a couple or three short oci you complete the break in process more rapidly." Obviously he would not mention that if it was not better for the engine vs delaying the break in process. Metal content is not a good thing.
Lab post 1:
Hopefully the iron will drop. Probably the engine breaking in.
Lab post 2:
Excessive iron again. Try 7500 OCI.
Lab post 3:
Iron improved but by the posters admission it was all highway miles from a commute across the country. Not his normal drive.
Lab post 4:
Excessive lead. Very high wear.
Lab Post 5:
Excessive metals. Engine breaking in. Try some shorter OCI's
Lab post 6:
High metal content. Excessive wear.
Almost every comment mentioned high metal content. Now, if the engine is new this may well explain the reason but it clear it is not good to run oil with high metal content for extended OCI's as this causes excessive wear. Anyway, it is a personal choice but one thing we do know is that changing the oil in the 5,000 - 7500 range has proven itself. 10k - 15k OCI have not. I find it risky.
Don't forget almost everyone is changing their filter at 5k when doing the 10k OCI.
Lab post 1:
Hopefully the iron will drop. Probably the engine breaking in.
Lab post 2:
Excessive iron again. Try 7500 OCI.
Lab post 3:
Iron improved but by the posters admission it was all highway miles from a commute across the country. Not his normal drive.
Lab post 4:
Excessive lead. Very high wear.
Lab Post 5:
Excessive metals. Engine breaking in. Try some shorter OCI's
Lab post 6:
High metal content. Excessive wear.
Almost every comment mentioned high metal content. Now, if the engine is new this may well explain the reason but it clear it is not good to run oil with high metal content for extended OCI's as this causes excessive wear. Anyway, it is a personal choice but one thing we do know is that changing the oil in the 5,000 - 7500 range has proven itself. 10k - 15k OCI have not. I find it risky.
Don't forget almost everyone is changing their filter at 5k when doing the 10k OCI.
Roadfrog is 10-7. Out.
05-26-15, 08:43 PM
#54
05-27-15, 05:28 AM
#56
Lexus Fanatic
Guys, this is silly...and in reality off topic.
The OP's original question was this:
And the answer to that question is yes. The 2013-2015 LS460s have a 10k OCI with 0W20 Synthetic.
The OP's original question was this:
Just curious....I've heard mixed stuff...are there ANY model year LS460 cars (2007-2015) where the oil change interval is 10,000 miles?
05-30-15, 12:45 PM
#57
Lexus Fanatic
Got my Blackstone Labs report back.. Here it is:
Blackstone.pdf
So everything looks great with 6k miles on the oil. Have been advised to go 8k miles on this change.
No idea where the oil is going (2 qts in 6k miles). Obviously not burning it and there is no indications of any leaks. The good thing is that the consumption went down by a qt in this OCI. Perhaps it will continue to drop with continued use of the TGMO. Regardless, I'm not concerned and apparently neither is Lexus, as they consider this sort of consumption as well below normal levels. I realize there are some that have no consumption whatsoever, but there are also many who do.
Blackstone.pdf
So everything looks great with 6k miles on the oil. Have been advised to go 8k miles on this change.
No idea where the oil is going (2 qts in 6k miles). Obviously not burning it and there is no indications of any leaks. The good thing is that the consumption went down by a qt in this OCI. Perhaps it will continue to drop with continued use of the TGMO. Regardless, I'm not concerned and apparently neither is Lexus, as they consider this sort of consumption as well below normal levels. I realize there are some that have no consumption whatsoever, but there are also many who do.
05-31-15, 01:32 PM
#58
Hey Chris, those numbers do look good. The iron is lower then I thought it would be. That is a good thing. 
I wonder where the oil is going as well. Do you think it has to do with the DI technology or something? The reason I ask is because my car does not seem to consume any oil that I notice. I'm sure it does a little but I never have to top it off. Even after 7500 miles. Don't take this as a 430 vs 460 thing I'm just wondering what would cause the engine to consume 2 quarts in 6k miles? Also, did you change your filter? Any concern on running the filter that long? Also, if you add two qts every 6k miles does it cause the analysis to be less accurate since you are adding new oil?
I have a Blackstone kit that I have had sitting for a while. I was going to use it for the transmission oil but I never got around to it. I may send mine in at 7500 just to see what comes back.
I wonder where the oil is going as well. Do you think it has to do with the DI technology or something? The reason I ask is because my car does not seem to consume any oil that I notice. I'm sure it does a little but I never have to top it off. Even after 7500 miles. Don't take this as a 430 vs 460 thing I'm just wondering what would cause the engine to consume 2 quarts in 6k miles? Also, did you change your filter? Any concern on running the filter that long? Also, if you add two qts every 6k miles does it cause the analysis to be less accurate since you are adding new oil?
I have a Blackstone kit that I have had sitting for a while. I was going to use it for the transmission oil but I never got around to it. I may send mine in at 7500 just to see what comes back.
Last edited by Lavrishevo; 05-31-15 at 01:50 PM.
05-31-15, 02:22 PM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
Hey Chris, those numbers do look good. The iron is lower then I thought it would be. That is a good thing.
I wonder where the oil is going as well. Do you think it has to do with the DI technology or something? The reason I ask is because my car does not seem to consume any oil that I notice. I'm sure it does a little but I never have to top it off. Even after 7500 miles. Don't take this as a 430 vs 460 thing I'm just wondering what would cause the engine to consume 2 quarts in 6k miles? Also, did you change your filter? Any concern on running the filter that long? Also, if you add two qts every 6k miles does it cause the analysis to be less accurate since you are adding new oil?
I have a Blackstone kit that I have had sitting for a while. I was going to use it for the transmission oil but I never got around to it. I may send mine in at 7500 just to see what comes back.
I wonder where the oil is going as well. Do you think it has to do with the DI technology or something? The reason I ask is because my car does not seem to consume any oil that I notice. I'm sure it does a little but I never have to top it off. Even after 7500 miles. Don't take this as a 430 vs 460 thing I'm just wondering what would cause the engine to consume 2 quarts in 6k miles? Also, did you change your filter? Any concern on running the filter that long? Also, if you add two qts every 6k miles does it cause the analysis to be less accurate since you are adding new oil?
I have a Blackstone kit that I have had sitting for a while. I was going to use it for the transmission oil but I never got around to it. I may send mine in at 7500 just to see what comes back.
Yes, I did change the filter and always do. According to all the info I've read on BITOG, running a filter for up to 15k miles or one year is not an issue for a quality filter such as Toyota's.
From what I understand, BL accounts for addition of oil in their analysis, so I'm confident that the results are accurate.
I considered sending a transmission sample as well, however based on the dead reliability of the LS tranny's, I'm not going to bother. I do however, recommend the oil analysis as it gives a good idea of what the engine is doing and how your particular favorite brand and viscosity of oil is performing for you. Ideally I like to do a sample analysis every other change.
What is clear from the results in my case, is that the Toyota 0W20 synthetic is ideal for the LS. While it is widely accepted that TGMO is high quality, my results and absence of hesitation since the changeover, reinforces my faith in it. It is obviously well suited to the DI system (as it says on the bottle). The added bonus of it being near the same cost as an off-the-shelf alternative, makes it a bargain, especially with an 8-10k mile OCI. I will not be surprised if my next sample advises me to go 10k or even 12k miles. I do know that in my previous BMW 7 series (with a 4.4 liter V8), BL advised me to go 15k. I never did, but it was a testament to synthetic oils. In that case I was using Mobil 1 0W40.
What I also may do, is send a virgin oil base sample for an analysis (TBN), of the TGMO which can be a great tool for understanding the capabilities of a particular make and grade of oil, particularly for extended OCI's.
I am extremely chuffed at how my engine is performing since the changeover. Heck, my next analysis may be even better. Over at BITOG, there are Toyota owners submitting their TGMO results from BL that many members on the site are questioning the validity of the returned analysis'. Many of the numbers show absolute zero levels of any metals.
In summary, even though the Quaker State Ultimate Durability oil is highly regarded at BITOG, it clearly wasn't performing as it should in my LS. It reinforces my resolve to continue with the TGMO based on the numbers it's returning. Numbers which are similar to others experience, both here and at BITOG.
Last edited by roadfrog; 05-31-15 at 02:27 PM.
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