flipping continental dws tires?
03-30-16, 09:21 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
flipping continental dws tires?
im running staggered wheels and getting about 25k from a set of dws tires,I have the typical inside wear on the front,with other wise 50% or more good tread everywhere else on tire but the very inside edge,the rears are wearing hard on the inside edge to about the middle of tire. IT looks like they are a non directional tire but they have a outside and inside label on sidewall, was thinking about dismounting them off rims and rotating them to opposite side of car so they are spinning the same direction but the inside edge would become the outside edge? The tread pattern is diff from inside to outside,though,if the tires were spinning the same direction,would this make the tire louder or any less safe? Whats diff about the tires inside and outside side walls?
03-30-16, 11:32 AM
#2
im running staggered wheels and getting about 25k from a set of dws tires,I have the typical inside wear on the front,with other wise 50% or more good tread everywhere else on tire but the very inside edge,the rears are wearing hard on the inside edge to about the middle of tire. IT looks like they are a non directional tire but they have a outside and inside label on sidewall, was thinking about dismounting them off rims and rotating them to opposite side of car so they are spinning the same direction but the inside edge would become the outside edge? The tread pattern is diff from inside to outside,though,if the tires were spinning the same direction,would this make the tire louder or any less safe? Whats diff about the tires inside and outside side walls?
03-30-16, 04:03 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
socalisf,so did anyone you know have any issue with running them inside out? Im wondering if its just because the tread is diff from inside to outside or is the sidewall any diff? doesnt make sense why they wouldnt run fine as long as they were running in the same direction? looks like its primary feature is dual condition performance,leads me to think the tire would be safe run inside out just wear quicker running inside out
"Asymmetrical tire tread, most commonly found on sports cars, is a bit of hybrid in that it combines a variety of tread patterns for maximum grip on both wet and dry roads. Usually the inside and middle parts of the tire will be designed for wet and/or winter traction, while the outside of the tire will have large tread blocks for maximum cornering capability on dry surfaces. To ensure that the tires are positioned correctly on the car (to maximize handling capabilities), the sidewalls are marked “outside only” and “inside only.” Many different rotation patterns can be used for tires with asymmetrical tread patterns".
"Asymmetrical tire tread, most commonly found on sports cars, is a bit of hybrid in that it combines a variety of tread patterns for maximum grip on both wet and dry roads. Usually the inside and middle parts of the tire will be designed for wet and/or winter traction, while the outside of the tire will have large tread blocks for maximum cornering capability on dry surfaces. To ensure that the tires are positioned correctly on the car (to maximize handling capabilities), the sidewalls are marked “outside only” and “inside only.” Many different rotation patterns can be used for tires with asymmetrical tread patterns".
Last edited by 1supra; 03-30-16 at 04:27 PM.
03-30-16, 04:39 PM
#5
For what it's worth I always flip my tires even if they are asymmetrical. I currently have the Conti DW on my M3 and will be flipping them this weekend. I will also rotate directional tires on the car and this means sometimes they run backwards. I drive my cars aggressively on the street and they all see quite a bit of track use. My cars are also driven in all sorts of weather but to be fair "weather" where I live just means rain. Some people seem to think the car will explode or you will immediately crash from lack of grip if you do this, but I assure you it's really not as big of a deal as it can be made out to be 
Flipping asymmetrical tires- Not "ideal" but I would be willing to bet the average Joe will not notice any change in performance from doing this. I'm sure there is a small reduction in peak lateral grip in most cases but depending on the tread pattern longitudinal grip may actually increase. Think the thicker tread blocks are now on the inside and so there is more rubber on the ground where the most pressure is being applied. This holds true in my opinion regardless of the tire having a symmetrical casing or not, although the feel of the tire will change a little if it has an asymmetrical casing and you flip it.
Rotating symmetrical tires with directional tread patterns- Zero difference in dry performance. Confirmed with lap times on track as well as subjective feel. The only thing reduced running a directional tire backwards is hydroplaning resistance (obviously) so it is advised you rotate them back to spin in the "correct" direction before doing any heavy wet weather driving.
When you flip or rotate tires they may be a little noisier at first depending on how much they have feathered. They will eventually wear in and quiet back down.
As long as the tire is not damaged in any way I say flip them and extend the life as long as you can
-Matt M.
Flipping asymmetrical tires- Not "ideal" but I would be willing to bet the average Joe will not notice any change in performance from doing this. I'm sure there is a small reduction in peak lateral grip in most cases but depending on the tread pattern longitudinal grip may actually increase. Think the thicker tread blocks are now on the inside and so there is more rubber on the ground where the most pressure is being applied. This holds true in my opinion regardless of the tire having a symmetrical casing or not, although the feel of the tire will change a little if it has an asymmetrical casing and you flip it.
Rotating symmetrical tires with directional tread patterns- Zero difference in dry performance. Confirmed with lap times on track as well as subjective feel. The only thing reduced running a directional tire backwards is hydroplaning resistance (obviously) so it is advised you rotate them back to spin in the "correct" direction before doing any heavy wet weather driving.
When you flip or rotate tires they may be a little noisier at first depending on how much they have feathered. They will eventually wear in and quiet back down.
As long as the tire is not damaged in any way I say flip them and extend the life as long as you can
-Matt M.
03-30-16, 04:56 PM
#6
^^^^I usually agree with Matt, but certainly not here. This is a BIG 
IMHO. Tires are designed to work in a certain way, be it directional, asymmetrical or whatever, and we should not deviate from the manufacturer's recommendations. Especially on a Hi-Po car like we have.
We need to be cognizant of our tire wheel combo when it comes to load ranges, diameters, tire sizes that fit what wheel sizes, offsets, and a myriad of other concerns.
And we need to realize that 90% of tire trouble comes in the last 10% of wear. And as a tire wears, it's traction decreases, especially in the wet.
I know we are not all rich here, but why take chances with our tires to try and get a couple of hundred more miles out of them, very foolish IMHO.
And, if you had a catastrophic tire failure whether it was a result of mounting a tire in a position it was not meant to be mounted in or not, you would have absolutely no legal recourse against the tire or auto manufacturer.
To save a couple of pennies here, is just not worth it. It's your LIFE for gosh sakes!
Lou
IMHO. Tires are designed to work in a certain way, be it directional, asymmetrical or whatever, and we should not deviate from the manufacturer's recommendations. Especially on a Hi-Po car like we have. We need to be cognizant of our tire wheel combo when it comes to load ranges, diameters, tire sizes that fit what wheel sizes, offsets, and a myriad of other concerns.
And we need to realize that 90% of tire trouble comes in the last 10% of wear. And as a tire wears, it's traction decreases, especially in the wet.
I know we are not all rich here, but why take chances with our tires to try and get a couple of hundred more miles out of them, very foolish IMHO.
And, if you had a catastrophic tire failure whether it was a result of mounting a tire in a position it was not meant to be mounted in or not, you would have absolutely no legal recourse against the tire or auto manufacturer.
To save a couple of pennies here, is just not worth it. It's your LIFE for gosh sakes!
Lou
03-30-16, 06:23 PM
#7
Pole Position
Thread Starter
flow,id agree for running directional tires the oppiste direction,but asemitrical tires running inside out, I dont think anyone will ever feel the differance,on anything other than really pushing high speed corners. dsw are made for better snow traction so maybe some diff in snow traction, i dont drive this car in snow.
also if it were a couple hundred miles diff id trash them,the very inside edge is more than 60% worn than the entire rest of tire,so we are talking alot more possible time on these tires,hate to throw away 500 tread rated tires with 20k on them because one tiny spot is about to cause tire failure,bet i can get 15k more out of them,and at 1000 bucks a set,its worth it, just wondering how many others have run these inside out with success
also if it were a couple hundred miles diff id trash them,the very inside edge is more than 60% worn than the entire rest of tire,so we are talking alot more possible time on these tires,hate to throw away 500 tread rated tires with 20k on them because one tiny spot is about to cause tire failure,bet i can get 15k more out of them,and at 1000 bucks a set,its worth it, just wondering how many others have run these inside out with success
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03-30-16, 09:52 PM
#8
^^^^I usually agree with Matt, but certainly not here. This is a BIG IMHO. Tires are designed to work in a certain way, be it directional, asymmetrical or whatever, and we should not deviate from the manufacturer's recommendations. Especially on a Hi-Po car like we have.
We need to be cognizant of our tire wheel combo when it comes to load ranges, diameters, tire sizes that fit what wheel sizes, offsets, and a myriad of other concerns.
And we need to realize that 90% of tire trouble comes in the last 10% of wear. And as a tire wears, it's traction decreases, especially in the wet.
I know we are not all rich here, but why take chances with our tires to try and get a couple of hundred more miles out of them, very foolish IMHO.
And, if you had a catastrophic tire failure whether it was a result of mounting a tire in a position it was not meant to be mounted in or not, you would have absolutely no legal recourse against the tire or auto manufacturer.
To save a couple of pennies here, is just not worth it. It's your LIFE for gosh sakes!
Lou
IMHO. Tires are designed to work in a certain way, be it directional, asymmetrical or whatever, and we should not deviate from the manufacturer's recommendations. Especially on a Hi-Po car like we have. We need to be cognizant of our tire wheel combo when it comes to load ranges, diameters, tire sizes that fit what wheel sizes, offsets, and a myriad of other concerns.
And we need to realize that 90% of tire trouble comes in the last 10% of wear. And as a tire wears, it's traction decreases, especially in the wet.
I know we are not all rich here, but why take chances with our tires to try and get a couple of hundred more miles out of them, very foolish IMHO.
And, if you had a catastrophic tire failure whether it was a result of mounting a tire in a position it was not meant to be mounted in or not, you would have absolutely no legal recourse against the tire or auto manufacturer.
To save a couple of pennies here, is just not worth it. It's your LIFE for gosh sakes!
Lou
I understand where you are coming from and of course you are entitled to your opinions. If you or anyone else reading this doesn't feel comfortable with the idea of running tires flipped then by all means, please don't do it. I always appreciate your input and respect your opinions, but with all due respect I stand by my previous post. I stand by it based on my own experience using many different flipped tires on both the street and track (for likely tens of thousands of miles at this point) as well as the collective experiences of many others I frequent the track with that choose to do the same to stretch their tire life.
Of course it is important to take into consideration all the things you mention but none of that changes just because the tire has been flipped on a wheel- a load rating does not change just because the tire has been turned around.
I understand you may lose any legal recourse if you were to have a failure and you bring up a valid point with that. I can't speak for many as my driving habits are probably wildly different from the average person- most of my miles are driving to/from/on a race track and if I have a failure on track there is no legal recourse regardless, so it has never been big concern of mine.
I'm not trying to tell anyone they have to flip their tires but the question was, "is flipping asymmetrical tires okay" and in my personal opinion (and the opinions of many of my counterparts) based on many, many miles of the most aggressive use you could imagine, the answer is absolutely yes.
-Matt M.
Last edited by SpeedFreaksUSA; 03-31-16 at 11:58 AM.
03-31-16, 07:37 AM
#9
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Be careful Tire is not meant to be switched and it will wear even faster.
Also I have been told over the years that you should always rotate tires even if they are staggered. What I mean is if they are not directional then take the back right and switch with the back left. Inlcuding the fronts. You think about how many right turns you make compared to left turns. Weight inside car is mostly on drivers side with you driving. So on and so forth.
Also I have been told over the years that you should always rotate tires even if they are staggered. What I mean is if they are not directional then take the back right and switch with the back left. Inlcuding the fronts. You think about how many right turns you make compared to left turns. Weight inside car is mostly on drivers side with you driving. So on and so forth.
03-31-16, 10:43 AM
#10
^^^^I'm an old guy, have been driving for WAY over 60 Years
Anyway, back in the day when Bias belted and then radials were first introduced it was a big no-no to rotate from side to side (change the running direction of a tire).
I know that tire build methods have come a LONG way since then, but it's simply something I can't get my head around. I have run vehicles with staggered tires since my Porsche 944 back in 1985. And, I don't rotate tires. Just something I would never do. Heck, I don't even rotate the tires in my truck, and I didn't on my late wife's ES. I'd rather let the front tires wear and replace them then try to get a couple of thousand more miles from a set of worn tires.
Yes, I probable buy more tires than I should, but my tires always show little wear and always perform like new. Maybe I'm just a silly old man, stuck in my ways, but I feel a lot better about what's touching the ground when I get rambunctious behind the wheel, and yes I still do
Edit - When I sold my OEM wheels with staggered 245/30-285/35 S-04s, the wear was pretty even front to back (⁶/₃₂ or ⁷/₃₂).
Lou
Anyway, back in the day when Bias belted and then radials were first introduced it was a big no-no to rotate from side to side (change the running direction of a tire). I know that tire build methods have come a LONG way since then, but it's simply something I can't get my head around. I have run vehicles with staggered tires since my Porsche 944 back in 1985. And, I don't rotate tires. Just something I would never do. Heck, I don't even rotate the tires in my truck, and I didn't on my late wife's ES. I'd rather let the front tires wear and replace them then try to get a couple of thousand more miles from a set of worn tires.
Yes, I probable buy more tires than I should, but my tires always show little wear and always perform like new. Maybe I'm just a silly old man, stuck in my ways, but I feel a lot better about what's touching the ground when I get rambunctious behind the wheel, and yes I still do
Edit - When I sold my OEM wheels with staggered 245/30-285/35 S-04s, the wear was pretty even front to back (⁶/₃₂ or ⁷/₃₂).
Lou
03-31-16, 10:27 PM
#11
Pole Position
I have to agree that rotating asymmetrical for the street is generally ok for dry street performance although some lateral grip may be slightly compromised at the limit. Regarding the rotation of directional tires in the dry, this is completely ok from a dry performance stand point and poses no safety issues, guys who are racing, especially endurance racing (myself included) do this ALL the time. I have a Continental tire development engineer who is one of the drivers on my race team and he has no problems with this.
On the other end, running a 285 width tire on a 9" rim may "fit" but it is definitely going to degrade performance, in this case the sidewall is just not going to be withing the optimal performance range. On track the tire will wear unusually with excessive sidewall squirm. General stability and steering feel will diminish. The only time a 285 might be better than a 265 on a 9" rim would be with maybe a drag radial.
On the other end, running a 285 width tire on a 9" rim may "fit" but it is definitely going to degrade performance, in this case the sidewall is just not going to be withing the optimal performance range. On track the tire will wear unusually with excessive sidewall squirm. General stability and steering feel will diminish. The only time a 285 might be better than a 265 on a 9" rim would be with maybe a drag radial.
Last edited by DaveGS4; 04-01-16 at 03:34 AM.
04-01-16, 10:12 AM
#12
On the other end, running a 285 width tire on a 9" rim may "fit" but it is definitely going to degrade performance, in this case the sidewall is just not going to be withing the optimal performance range. On track the tire will wear unusually with excessive sidewall squirm. General stability and steering feel will diminish. The only time a 285 might be better than a 265 on a 9" rim would be with maybe a drag radial.
In my youth I worked in the industry and know that manufacturer's tend to be a little conservative with their recommendations. Anyway, it worked for me, but I certainly understand your comments.
A pict is attached.
Lou
04-01-16, 06:40 PM
#13
When I was still on stock wheels, I ran the 245/35 in front and 285/30 Bridgestone S-04s in back. And found the performance much improved over the stock sizes. I have recommended the combo to others. I knew it was out of the manufacturer's recommended range, but thought I would try, and I was pleasantly surprised at how well the combo worked. I felt no looseness in the back and the tread made full contact. A friend with another ISF has the same combo, and he is very happy with the setup. My old wheels now reside on an IS350, and the new owner is also happy with them.
In my youth I worked in the industry and know that manufacturer's tend to be a little conservative with their recommendations. Anyway, it worked for me, but I certainly understand your comments.
A pict is attached.
Lou
In my youth I worked in the industry and know that manufacturer's tend to be a little conservative with their recommendations. Anyway, it worked for me, but I certainly understand your comments.
A pict is attached.
Lou
04-01-16, 06:46 PM
#14
^^^^Yes, I'm still running S-04s, but now on RCF wheels - 9s and 10s. 255/35 & 295/30 front to rear. These keep the OD the same as stock. I read about the rebate, but I got a real good deal on mine back in December. I know you'll luv 'em 245/35 & 285/30 are perfect for the 8½ and 9½" wheels.
Lou
245/35 & 285/30 are perfect for the 8½ and 9½" wheels.Lou
Last edited by flowrider; 04-01-16 at 06:50 PM.
04-02-16, 07:45 PM
#15
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How aggressive of alignment setups are you guys running compared to this? How far can I detune to and still have the car drive well as a everyday driver with decent road performance
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