mmarshall

Hope this article isn't a repost (I did a search). It only verifies, though, what many of us have already suspected or observed....even in some high-performance cars, the traditional three-pedal manual gearbox is becoming an endangered species. Yes, we know the traditional arguments....impractical in stop-and-go-conditions, can be hard on one's left knee, can't be driven by some of those with leg-injuries, requires occasional clutch-replacements, synchros wear out if you don't heel-and-toe or double-clutch shift (which is difficult for many drivers to master), sometimes lower resale value, etc.....

Here, though, are some other reasons, given from an engineering/industry point of view.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...-their-way-out


BMW M exec says dual-clutch, manual transmissions on their way out

There was a time when opting for the manual transmission, and later the dual-clutch transmission, over an automatic was a no-brainer for anyone serious about performance driving.

The choice of transmission isn’t so straightforward these days as modern automatics are shifting much quicker than before and are just as fuel-efficient as or even more frugal than the alternatives.

But it seems, at least among the automakers, the winner has already been decided: the conventional torque converter-based automatic.

Speaking with Drive, Peter Quintus, Vice President for Sales and Marketing at BMW M, said he expects manual and dual-clutch transmissions to be phased out in the coming years. He also said that he wasn’t sure if a manual transmission would even be offered on the next-generation M3 and M4 due later this decade.

The issue with manual transmissions, apart from their low take up rate, he explained, is their lack of durability when paired with high-torque engines. He described the current heavy-duty manual transmissions that can handle high torque as being “heavy” and having shift quality that was “awful.”

As for dual-clutch transmissions, Quintus said the advantages they once offered over an automatic, such as their lighter weight and superior shift speed, were no longer apparent. Audi has also determined that dual-clutch transmissions can’t reliably handle high-torque loads and is reverting to automatic transmissions for its own high-performance cars.

There’s also the issue of cars switching to electrified powertrains and adopting self-driving capability, two technologies where automakers tend to favor automatic transmissions over the alternatives.

Och

iTrader: (3)

They are phasing out DCTs because of AWD. X6M and X5M are already 8 speed autos that act similar to DCT.

I just hope they don't phase out RWD from their smaller 2/4 series models.

mmarshall

Didn't Audi and VW offer their DCT with the Quattro and 4-Motion AWD systems? I could be wrong, but it seems to me they did, at least at one point.

mmarshall

One other factor (that the article didn't seem to mention) is that dual-clutch transmissions can be difficult and complex to repair or service. Many service-technicians don't like them because they require so much work, even though (depending on the dealership) they sometimes get paid more for long or complex jobs. And that, of course, can also affect how much it costs for the manufacturer to do warranty-work on them.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

DCT is good and has its advantages, but they can still be a little clunky at low speed. Automatic's with the traditional torque converter, despite the ever increasing number of gears, are becoming just as quick shifting and can handle more load. Lexus was probably smart to stick with the 8-Speed Sport Direct Shift, and upcoming 10-Speed. Audi also recently dropped the DCT in the S4 for a traditional 8-Speed. I suspect the less powerful performance M models like the M2 will retain a true three pedal option to the inevitable slush-box replacing its 7-Speed DCT.

blacksc400

iTrader: (4)

My 8speed auto act just like DCT, maybe little slower to swap gears, but I'm happy with the added comfort in everyday driving. But I do seriously considering order a manual for my next M, maybe it's do or never since there won't be any manual in the near future :/

mmarshall

The 1Gen Audi/VW DCT units, though, seemed to avoid that.....they were butter-smooth, and, IMO, approached perfection. The worst, of course, are the well-publicized Ford Focus/Fiesta units. Ford (apparently) still doesn't have them right, even after several years of production.

Och

iTrader: (3)

In my X6M the 8 speed auto immitates DCT behavior. It doesn't roll when you put the car in drive or reverse without giving it some gas, and it doesn't have a park position - I have to pull the handbrake switch to activate park. To be honest, it's rather annoying.

blacksc400

iTrader: (4)

Really? I love it, and I like to roll back a little when stopped on a slight steep grade to imitate a manual car lol. But most of time I just use auto-brake so I won't forget to engage handbrake. I am so used to it that there were couple times I even forgot to put my wife's Sedona to park when stopped.

Och

iTrader: (3)

It a bit annoying when parallel parking, gotta be careful with the gas. With conventional automatic you don't have to use gas at all to park, just control it by releasing brake pedal. Other than that I also just use auto hold function.

Aron9000

That's so weird, I didn't know BMW went to torque converter automatics with some of their M cars, figured they were all that dumb, clunky DCT transmission still. I also never understood why these transmissions in BMW's were so awful and clunky around town(feels like somebody who doesn't know how to drive stick is driving the car) while VW/Audis with similar transmissions were buttery smooth.

Also I know when the Corvette came out with its new 8L90E torque converter automatic, a lot of people(mainly the auto press and internet fan-boys) gave GM crap about it being a conventional automatic and not a dual clutch transmission, which was seen as more "cutting edge" since its what Ferrari, Porsche, etc used. Yet the Corvettes automatic bangs off shifts quicker than Porsche's PDK gearbox, drives like a normal automatic, and is always in the right gear(the huge torque band of the Corvette's V8 might be part of that feeling). People who have driven it say its the best automatic transmission they've ever driven, by a LONG shot. Kind of funny how now the trend is going back towards the traditional but very high tech slush box.

As for the manuals going away, part of it might be due to customer demand in certain segments(bigger autobahn cruisers like the M5, RS7, there isn't much of a demand for a manual). But for purpose built sports cars, I still think there is a demand. Porsche quit offering the 911 GT3 with a manual, but customer demand has forced them to bring it back for the refreshed model coming out this year. Ferrari's from the 1990's/2000's with a clutch pedal command a significant premium over those offered with the F1 style transmission.

But the real reason manuals have gone away IMO is manufacturers are in an arms race with horsepower and chasing numbers. Automatics and dual clutch gear boxes now days deliver superior acceleration numbers and lap times, its a game of one-up-manship that's really made the manual gearbox passe IMO.

Sulu

There are 2 types of dual-clutch transmissions -- those with a wet clutch and those with a dry clutch. The early VW clutches were wet clutches and they were smooth. The Fords use dry clutches, which are rougher.

Wet clutches are smooth but not as efficient as dry clutches.

mmarshall

OK, Thanks.....I could tell the difference between the earlier and later VW DSGs in shift-quality, but I didn't know the details why.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Current BMW DCTs are not as rough as they used to be.

gengar

Just FYI, MB's MCT (used in the E63, for example, and not to be confused with the Getrag DCT dual-clutch used in the SLS and AMG GT) is a wet clutch automatic. No torque converter.

I've been perfectly happy with the dual-clutch in my Cayman even at low speeds, but certainly if all I cared about was comfort, I agree even something like the IS-F 8spd works wonders.