Biddles

iTrader: (2)

That's a hell of a score. I hope everything works good when you get it set up. If so that's an impressive build at an insane price.

SEIDO

iTrader: (1)

Thanks you guys
I pretty much have everything I need.
Right now, I'm just trying to find an amp to power the component speakers simply.
I'd like one from the same gen. as the amp I just bought for the sub (MRV-M500), like the MRV-F300; but for some reason, that lesser-power amp, is turning out to be both less-abundant also, and more-expensive, oddly enough. I'm thinking of just getting another MRV-M500 just for the components; since I'm finding them for under $100.

So far, the search continues ...



Ps:
What's it cost to fix an amp?
I've found one (cosmetically new) on eBay for $50, but it's status says: "For Parts or Repair".
The description says it won't turn on, when powered. Is it worth it?
Might it be like a small part inside or something, that I could simply sodder-in from Radio-Shack?

MackOnDeez

just try to find one in working condition.
(you have no idea if its been abused/peaked pass RMS/liquid) its not worth the corner cut.
if you know a very well-known highly reputable amp repair shop id do it. (only if its a OH DANGGG/MUST NEED Amplifier)
personally id stay away from the "needs repair" inless its a rare/well known prized amp.

some places charge 50$ just to look at it & add to the total cost of the repair as credit once they find out what the problem is to your bill. could be anywhere from 120-200$.
its only worth it if you really LOVE/RARE model of equipment.
in this case since one in "working conditon" is only 100$ or so id just shell out the few extra bucks to save the headaches you need for the rest of the car lol

love the build so far. cant believe the steals your getting. your system is coming out very clean.

ebay has one for around 95$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aftermarket-Alpine-AMP-Amplifier-MRV-M500-LKQ-/311413849924?hash=item4881b63f44&vxp=mtr
another one for 110$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpine-MRV-M500-1-Channel-Mono-V-Power-Digital-Car-Sub-Amplifier-300W-RMS-/151764093265?hash=item2355d84951&vxp=mtr
heres a link to a used one for 60$ its in working order (but you kno the chance/ no warranty issues here)
http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=C...89a92f7ffdc43a

make sure since your running alot of power you need to get a capacitor with the right Farad. (1 farad = 1000 watts) you usually want more than what your stereo's RMS is but not TOO much.
(your alternator will thank you)

good luck!

SEIDO

iTrader: (1)

I've seen those, but unfortunately they don't include the covers along the sides. I'm **** so I want them to look new and complete. Otherwise yeah, I'd have gotten them.
I hear that capacitors are no good because they don't justify the power it takes to run them; is that true? I was told a separate battery is the way to go; however I'll admit, they look cool; so I'd rather have one for aesthetic value. If they're no good though as I'm hearing, then I won't however.

eknine9

iTrader: (8)

Do NOT run a capacitor.
They are not used for this, and cannot create extra current.

Capacitors are used to smooth voltage drops for systems that already have sufficient current but who's batteries cannot provide instantaneous current at the moment of power draw. They typically can only provide power for a fraction of a second before they are drained and only cover for the milliseconds it takes for the battery to begin it's chemical reaction. This kind of setup has use in a large system where the alternator and battery can cover the continuous load of the system but instantaneous draws can cause voltage drops which affect amplifier performance. It can be the difference of 0.5 dB in a bass race competition when burping a system.

In a daily driver on music it has NO USE at all except it drains current since it's not perfectly efficient and current has to pass through it's connections to get to your system. A capacitor has no capacity for storage beyond a few milliseconds before it's fully expended and if your alt/battery cannot keep up with the current draw of your system it will be even less capable of keeping up with the current draw of your system plus a capacitor that is trying to recharge off of the current provided by the alt and battery.

Remember, a capacitor does not generate any current and cannot store current that can provide more than a fraction of a second. Avoid them entirely unless you're running 4,000+ watts have 300+ amps of alternator capacity and a battery bank but need voltage smoothing capability. A capacitor is for voltage smoothing, they do NOT create additional current and are a source of current draw once fully discharged. Any system that has trouble keeping up with electrical demands on music needs to either be made more efficient or given a larger supply of current to draw from. A capacitor does neither of these services and often costs more than a 2nd battery or upgrading to a HO alt, or increasing the gauge of the electrical wiring.

There are newer products on the market now like power cells which provide quick power like capacitors but also provide reserve capacity so they can actually provide current for a decent amount of time, acting like a smaller battery, if issues with current pop up I would even recommend that over a cap. But typically if there are issues with a lack of current, the first thing to do is a Big 3 upgrade of increasing the gauge of wire from the Alt to bat, Bat to fusebox, and Bat to ground. Next a bigger battery, or second battery, after that a HO Alt, then consider a power cell, larger HO alt, or 2nd/3rd battery. Thats how issues with current are addressed. After issues of current provisions are addressed a capacitor can be used to provide voltage smoothing for high draw situations, but only when the necessary current is available from the vehicles electrical system, but the electrical system simply can't provide the current for the first couple milliseconds.

eknine9

iTrader: (8)

Here's a test that was done by Richard Clark to see if capacitors could actually provide measurable improvement.
He was prominent on the IASCA scene pretty much dominating any competition he entered through the 90's an early 2000's in a Grand National with a 2000 watt RMS system.

MackOnDeez

completely forgot to add the section about the big 3 on my notepad.

if you add a battery get optima. (red/yellow versions) (blue is marine i wouldnt use)

(if you dont have the same battery's it helps stablize power w/CAP)
if your batterys dont match power usually people THEN add a cap, its the only way a cap would be useful w/ BIG 3 etc..
some cases it actually removes some noise as well.

people use the same battery (front and trunk) so that wont be an issue & you wont need a cap.

with crap equipment/budget buyers who buy low grade amps and push them to the max...
usually run caps because when they peak it just freaks the whole system out.
(ive seen this first hand) fries the whole system without a cap)

but also having a cap thats WAY over your systems RMS is actually really stupid.
a 2000 watt system with a 15Farad = 15,000 Watt Farad is OVERKILL.
that system would only need a 4Farad = 4,000 watts if anything.

eknine9

iTrader: (8)

I think you're missing the point.
NOBODY NEEDS a capacitor. a cap actually provides a drain on the electrical system as a whole and is only necessary for voltage smoothing in extremely high end specific situations. Anybody using a cap on a system within which they're listening to music is not only wasting their money, but also introducing an additional drain on their electrical system.

Capacitors do not provide additional current. Farad's are not = Watts. Farads are a measure of voltage difference and really just give you an idea of how much current can flow through the capacitor before voltage drops below a useable level. The more Farads the larger current flow can be facilitated for a longer period of time before voltage drop. the difference is of course minimal, it's still less than a second before output from a capacitor drops below 12v. Whoever told you Farad's = Watts had no clue what they were talking about.

You can certainly run mismatched batteries with no issue. 12volts is 12volts. Optima's are overpriced these days, but easy to obtain. I used to run a basic autozone battery in my Ford Explorer with a Deka 9a31 Deep Cycle AGM battery in the trunk.No Problems.

Also it can be difficult or inefficient to run identical batteries since the trunk and engine compartment are two very different environments. You can't run a lead acid battery in any shared airspace with the driver or passengers due to fuming. While batteries that typically do not fume, like AGM batteries do poorly when exposed to excessive heat. It makes much more sense to choose the ideal battery for where you're putting it, then to try to match batteries because you think the electrons from one battery are incompatible with a different brand of battery.

Capacitors do not protect a system in any way. If an amp or a sub is going to fry without a capacitor, it will fry with a capacitor. And considering the main thing that kills an amp is running it for excessive periods outside of it's acceptable voltage range, a capacitor may even be more likely to kill an amp due to voltage dropping.

If you have any proof that capacitors do any good whatsoever, please post it here, however during the 2 years I was a car audio installer, and during the MECP tests I took in high school so I could install car audio I never saw a single good piece of information about capacitors. at least not for anyone listening to music.

MackOnDeez

10 years as a audio engineer (not just tracks & master music side / studied the actual equipment and audio manipulation along w/ power distribution process)
to further understand frequency than a guy just making equipment.
was going to start constructing audio equipment.
& UCLA degree in Electronic engineering.

plus, you really think stereo companies would make capacitors for no reason? just a gimmick? (its not a NEED but i described why it WOULD be used)

what would you rather have? a system that runs steady current? or depending on a user (which most are novice) just slap product in his car with power peaking/bouncing around depending on how he uses it?
(your going to base your facts on 1 guys system and compare them to every audio system available off that one test) because they all should do the same right? WRONG. sounds ignorant.

its no fail safe but it helps alot when it comes to keeping a nice flow other than adding more power to a car that was NOT designed 4 these systems clearly...

those dB sub comps make me laugh everyone praises them because they spend so much money and time bending waves...

but if that's what you believe then more power to you man...

sidenote: this back & forth is very "educational" and all but we are steering away from the OP's post of showing what hes doing... lets stick to that since he's clearly made his mind up on what he's trying to accomplish.

eknine9

iTrader: (8)

Its hard for me to walk away from a discussion that I have a firm belief in.

Capacitors have a use, but its not in generating extra current. If your electrical system can't provide the necessary current for the system, a capacitor won't help it will only hinder. I've cleaned up numerous installs where owners thought a capacitor could bandaid over an electrical system that couldn't provide the necessary current.

I've already explained in detail where a capacitor would be extremely useful, and it's to cover instantaneous voltage drop that the battery can't cover until the chemical reaction has begun. Electrical reactions happen at the speed of light because it propagates through an electromagnetic wave. Now lets say you have a 300 amp alternator but your total audio system draw at a -3dB signal is 400+ amps. Now your alt is going to provide maybe 210 amps to the audio system, maybe more, maybe less at 14.4v So voltage is going to drop until that current loss is made up. Typically your battery is what picks up the slack, but the chemical reaction that the batteries undergo takes time, not much time, it's less than a second for it to convert to electricity, but it's enough time for some voltage drop to happen. To cover this drop before the batteries pick up the slack a capacitor can be used as an intermediary. When voltage drops a capacitor activates and discharges it's current. As current passes through the capacitor voltage decreases, eventually the voltage the capacitor can put curren out at is below the level of a system under draw which is typically 13.7 volts or so. So a 2 Farad cap can put out roughly 150 amps for long enough for the batteries to kick in and do their job. In a BassRace competition, on a -3dB sine wave a farad can cover for the drop long enough to get those last fractions of a dB that can make or break you in a competition.

Obviously this has a major use during a bass race competition or any other non-musical competition where competitors are burping their systems for dB. If you've never been to one or been near a competition car I highly recommend you go and check it out, as an Audio Engineer I'm sure you'd enjoy it.

Now on music current draw is much different and more variable than during a competition where loudest burps are the goal. Music NEVER has any -3dB signal unless it's heavily distorted, and typically provides a much more variable amp draw. There is no intermittent signal draw during which the capacitor would have a chance to recharge. Typically a capacitor takes twice as long to charge as it does to discharge, so after it's discharged you're basically asking the alt and batteries to recharge the cap while also providing current to the amplifiers. This is fine when you're just doing burps as there is time in between each burp, however on music the current draw isn't so large and it's spread over a much larger time. For music, it's more important to have an alternator and battery(ies) that can easily provide for your current needs. There's less likely to be a large instantaneous drop in voltage, and with the $150-$300 investment often tossed into a capacitor, that doesn't make sense for something that isn't going to provide any measurable improvement and then act as a drain on the system for the rest of the song. That money is better spent on increasing the current the electrical system can provide, or making the electrical system more efficient.

I hope that sufficiently explains the actual need for capacitors, and also explains why it's a waste of money for people playing music. As an electrical engineer, if you can prove me wrong, or show how a capacitor could be useful for someone just trying to listen to music, I'd love to be proven wrong. I just have trouble backing away from information I view as incorrect. And you haven't really given me a substantive argument in support of capacitors for someone trying to listen to music, on an upgraded system in a mobile environment.

Steady current is not achieved through a capacitor as capacitors do not provide current for longer than a few milliseconds. You want steady voltage on music, which means being able to provide for current needs at a cars operating voltage. The way you do that is by making the electrical system more efficient, increasing the amps provided by the alt at 14.4 volts, or increasing the available amp hours and crank amps that the battery provides. A capacitor does none of these things for longer than a few milliseconds, before its own voltage drops below useable levels.

MackOnDeez

I think I finally found out the misconception...

You keep saying "extra current" as if I'm saying a capacitor is going to give him more "juice" or power.. That's not what I mean at all.

I've mentioned power balance. Steady current. That's mainly what they are used for.

Most amps don't actually output what the box says...

Example?

I've owned a few Rockford Fosgate Amps & the RMS will be 300-600-1000...
I will test these amps and they will actually output about 15-20% MORE power than the company states. Now as a consumer that's a great thing! Can handle more than what the company states but now this is where a "CAP" will come into play.

1. I'm not going to just rely on fuses as my "safety net" so to speak even if you get the proper ones w/ correct amps.
2. Most amps RMS will tend to bounce depending on brand as well..
just because it can handle that much constant power "safely" doesn't mean that your subwoofer choice will not suck out power differently depending on how it's wired or how it's ohm'd out as well.
(Can be more demanding or less on power)
You want your amp to be the one to control that lapse alone?

Ive been around the block & back to know that a capacitor is a very nice tool to use with good equipment if you like "BALANCED POWER" and it also helps your equipment if the setup demands power in areas... An amp can only try to balance that for so long until it burns out...

People let this go way over their head when it comes to capacitors and it's just crazy...

Sure you can use any system without it...
But with all the variables at play and different equipment out there that people mix and match they don't all use current the same...

So to say you don't need it isn't wrong but it's not correct either to say it really doesn't do much when it actually does.

eknine9

iTrader: (8)

No, you didn't find a misconception. You ignored most of whats said and havent provided any proof that a capacitor can provide power balance to someone listening to music. There is no reason to spend any money on one if you are listening to music as they just end up being a drain on the system as a whole for the entirety of the song.

Please address those points, from my previous post. If your electrical system can keep up with system demands, a capacitor just provides an additional drain on the system without providing any benefit. If your electrical system can't keep up with system demands you're better off taking the $100-$300 you'd spend ona capacitor improving your electrical system.

The only place a capacitor provides any eletrical benefit are for large scale systems that have the electrical capacity but need to maintain max voltage for the first few milliseconds before the batteries fully react to maximize scores on bass race. If you continue to play music that couple milliseconds of benefit turns into 3 minutes of drain and decreased available voltage for the system. You're literally spending money to hamstring your electrical system.

Now you claim to be an electrical engineer but haven't provided an argument of any substance. Prove me wrong with some science, tests, or any sort of proof.

I have no idea why you're bringing fuses up, if you're using safe wiring practices you will have fused the wire WAY before the capacitor unless you like having fire inside of your interior. So regardless of anything the capacitor does the fuse would have broken the connection well before the capacitor. RMS is meaningless in these terms, and really just a ball park average for power output, any amp you get you have to set the gain with an oscilloscope, or roughly set it with a DMM on a -3dB sine wave. Whatever you set it to your amps will most likely never see on music. You basically set it as loud as you want it without inducing clipping. As clipping is a distortion of the musical signal by squaring off the top of the waves. If you're just depending on what the box says to figure out power you're hopelessly lost and should back out of the discussion.

Most amps don't even say what input voltage their RMS was measured at. Was it 12.2? 12.8? 13.7? 14.4? The number on the box is just a suggestion, some of the more reputable companies measure at 12.2, some of those chasing numbers measure at 14.4, but you aren't going to get that number, you're going to get exactly what you set the amp to output at a -3dB sine wave. and you'll only get that output during that sine wave, which is obviously done to leave some headroom for the music.

Subs don't "suck out" power. Your amp generates power based on resistance from the sub wiring, impedance rise, input voltage, input signal voltage, and gain settings. You control all of those things. And if you somehow have no control of how much power you're putting out you should take everything apart, look long and hard at your install, realize you have no clue what you're doing, and find someone who does.

An amp does not "balance" any of that and then "burn out" because it's confused. This is all very basic amp tuning, and also a capacitor has nothing to do with any of that except input voltage, and I've already explained the one place where it would be helpful and why they exist in the car audio world. The problem is that a lot of people see them in competition cars and think they need them for their own cars to listen to music, and that's very opposite an backwards thinking. People often time decrease the voltage their amp sees over the course of a song by installing a capacitor, and for systems with large electrical deficiencies a capacitor can do even larger damage. It's not necessary for anyone listening to music, and is a waste of a couple hundred dollars.

Again, if you have any actual math, science, or just something that makes sense, please, I'm all ears, but the stuff you're saying right now doesn't make any sense. The current your amp draws is dependent on input signal voltage, and gain settings. The amount of current the amp draws will determine if there's an input voltage drop and how much. If the electrical system meets current demands, there is no voltage drop. If it does not, voltage drops until current can be supplied. As you know, power (watts) is dependent on input voltage, resistance, and the amps generating characteristics. You can actually measure AC output voltage of the amp and use Ohm's law to determine output and adjust the gain from there, using an oscilloscope to make sure the wave is clean and not squared off. You'll also notice, that the amps output voltage is nearly identical when connected to a sub or not. The sub has next to no impact on the amplifiers output AC voltage. None. You have complete control over that through the amps settings, electricity provided, and voltage of the input signal across the RCA's. The amount of wattage that the subwoofers voice coil sees is completely dependent on resistance. Because as you know E^2/R. The subwoofer does not "suck out power" The amp makes power across its leads no matter what, and the sub simply oscillates as a response to that power through the voice coil. It excurses upwards for the positive side of the wave, and inwards for the reactive side of the wave.

A capacitor literally has nothing to do with ANY OF THIS. I don't know why you think an amplifier can't do that without a capacitor since a capacitor has no control over this process and simply presents an additional current draw on the amplifiers input line. Again, please say something that makes sense to defend your assertion.

Also please stop saying "steady current" I think you're trying to say "steady voltage" since that would be what a capacitor has control of, steady current is just a confusing, nebulous phrase that doesn't have any actual meaning in this discussion.

You don't need it, and when you're talking about a couple hundred dollars it is kind of important to make sure the things you buy are actually useful for your application. If someone on this forum wanted to buy an intercooler without running a turbo numerous people would be telling them to save their money and buy something their car needs. If you aren't competiting for dB's on burps in a bassrace competition you do not need a capacitor and it will actually do more harm than good. Nobody in here wants to compete in bassrace, you're advocating people spending a couple hundred dollars on something that will do them more harm than good. I feel like myself, and anyone on this forum who has a differing opinion has a responsibility to speak up and discuss the issue, exchange ideas until the correct course of action for the circumstances is found. If none of us are willing to do that then we have no place here on the forum as we're just contributing to the spread of misinformation. So if you have a piece of information about capacitors that makes some sense, please present it, otherwise I think you're on the wrong side of this discussion. You can't be "not wrong and not correct" on issues that pertain to math and science. Especially for electrical equipment that has a clear use.

mikef

iTrader: (3)

Not to be rude but who has time to type all this.

MackOnDeez

Most of your "points" are just things I've explained and your being very extra at this point and over explaining things I've already said. If you can't understand what I've said in laymans terms...

You want proof ? Use google like everyone else that throws that around to users that don't search it.

Since your novels typed clearly look like a battle at this point I can't help but to think you clearly have something to prove.

If you strongly believe in yourself then okay? More power to you man... But clearly you seem like those kids on forums that bully people around over the differences between "your" & you're" when you clearly understand what's going on (since you so called corrected me)

I understand your trying to be correct at this point and that's something so important to you. So have your "win" or whatever

But all this typing about how a cap does nothing really is hilarious...

What your saying is pretty much every top audio manufacture that produces a capacitor is useless... (As you strongly stated over and over)

MackOnDeez

Again just stick to what the original OP is doing...

I can go for hours about how wrong you really are but that does nothing for this guy who's trying to post what cool stuff he's doing in his car...