Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

a stock sc is not a great performance car, its a fun GT car. take a look at all the build threads on this site.
you have to build them up starting with the worst thing and that is the stock suspension.

If you are lucky to get a 5spd, that will only help make the car feel better in autocross type driving.
gear selection is key on a heavy car, but choose correctly and a turbo SC will have all the power you need on tap.

get poly rack bushings, poly bushings for the control arms all around, nice coilover/spring shock combo, throw on some LS400 brakes, and your favorite type of lsd in the back with some decent tires and you will find the SC chassis will put a smile on your face no other chassis can offer at that value.

Some may even go as far as to say the SC can be more stable than the supra if done correctly because of its its slightly longer wheelbase. They are not identical, this is why the SC is more of a favorite for drifting.

On another note I like what toyota did with the FR-S styling and options, but I can't stand that subaru engine.
Im sure it autocrosses well when you turn off all the traction stuff, but I won't be driving one until there is a 2jz in it, or anything toyota and inline really Im sure a 3sgte could be made to fit in there somewhere.

MooJohn

I've had a decently-powerful (over 400whp) Legacy GT and while it was a great car I wouldn't consider it an autocross car either. I'm just one who won't buy a car with decent amenities and gut it to be a parking lot hero.

They're not perfect. They have an issue with providing adequate oil to the turbo in stock form and they have a nasty habit of eating ring lands on a stock tune. The plus sides include they are stupidly easy to tune - free software and a $50 cable. There are now bolt-on turbo upgrades that make much more power than stock while not requiring a lot of work to install. The Legacy has a stronger version of the WRXs 5-spd so it isn't as fragile, and the SpecB model will get you a 6spd manual and better suspension.

I also have no complaints about the performance of my SC. It isn't super fast but without the ECU dialing back the power in 1st it is much quicker than before. I have no firm numbers but it is quicker than the last-gen Prelude and the fart-can ricers I seem to run into. Consider where other cars were 20 years ago and it isn't bad at all.

2Poor2Buy

Well, I'd really like the Camry Akio-san is driving here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=SUmqQrx_cCk
Sure, I'd like an LF-A, oops I mean IS-F - did it again... I mean FR-S. If they insist on using Subaru, why not an improved EJ257 (turbo)?

I suppose I want a:
Sports compact RWD, 25% weight per corner, FMR die cast aluminum V6 or V8, or forced induction (no lag) 4-banger.
350Z comes close, so does BMW M3
Actually, Japanese automakers make tuner versions for their domestic market.

The Legacy 2.5GT 2005-2007 is a very real consideration for me at this time, which is a mid-sized.
The autocross Subaru winners were all WRX's though, which are classified as compacts.
MooJohn: 400whp? Did you build that from an EJ25? (EJ255, EJ257)
Please elaborate on that car.
While you wouldn't forgo amenities to be a parking lot hero... I'd be glad to!
For the record, I do nothing for show. I don't care if I beat anyone, but my own performance on the previous event. I appreciate autocross for it's SCCA sanctioned safety guidelines. I'm much less safe 'gettin squirrelly' out in the boondocks - there might be a deer, person, or stopped vehicle somewhere. All the more reason to have a car that is extremely nimble and able to stop well.
Sure, it's crazy to gut perfectly good equipment, but buying a car without that equipment in the first place, or 20 years old with much of it no longer functional or selling it off to others who need such as a CD Changer (for example), seems entirely reasonable.

Redtallman

iTrader: (1)

celica all trac ????

2Poor2Buy

That's a limited edition homologation model so Toyota could enter the World Rally Championship.

"...the ST185 All-Trac Turbo was the most expensive Celica yet. With a 2.0 L turbocharged 3S-GTE producing 149 kW (203 PS; 200 hp) and 200 lb·ft (270 N·m) of torque, it was the most powerful Celica ever sold in the USA."

Do you know where I could buy a legal US model, even in pieces? Seriously, let me know. That's a worthy choice if I can find one, but I can't pay a premium for it.

I just found one in Arizona! (that's a long distance away) Should I buy a 1992 for $7500, traveling to confirm it, then drive it home? Is it worth the premium, since it is in fact exactly what I'm looking for? Responses to this question are welcome by PM (if that works) so they don't clog this thread.

xspsi6

iTrader: (31)

Alltrac is a nightmare so my advise is to run as far away as you can!
I had one back in the day and it was owned by a MD before me so it was in mint shape with low miles and still was a money pit and did not respond to mods like my galant vr4 did at the time as they will and have made 500whp on stock engines and there is no way a 3sgte can do that and be reliable at the same time.

2Poor2Buy

Darn! https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif
As the saying goes, "if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is."

Seriously, was the engine a money pit because you were trying to get a lot more power out of it, or even the rest of the car? I'd be inclined to leave the engine stock, eventually with a new model turbo, head gasket that lowers compression, ARP bolts.

I can't buy a money pit, so your help is most welcome.

xspsi6

iTrader: (31)

If you are content with 300 or lower hp then it would be ok but the lower end is weak and they have fuel delivery issues and tend to lean out because of it which usually ends up cracking a ring land or burning a hole in the piston.

Head gasket is also an issue at higher than stock boost levels.
Just trying to keep up on the maint is a costly or deal

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Celica All-Tracs were made from 1988-1993 in the USA. They were indeed homologation models but you can find them around if you're willing to go out of your way to get one. xspsi6's story is what I've heard about them as well-- not for the faint of heart. That 3SGTE, however, is the same exact motor that was in the MKII MR2 Turbo other than the permanent AWD system and 5-speed manual transaxle. The turbo may have also been a twin scroll and different from the one found in the MR2 Turbo but I could be wrong on that.

Packaging is a nightmare as I've heard but they are great cars. It's working on them that I've heard many owners have issues with because everything is so tight in there. That engine was used as much as the 2JZGTE if not more in JGTC racing. Perhaps people just don't use them as daily drivers for these reasons. The last factory iteration of the 3SGTE All-Trac/GT-Four and MK2 MR2 Turbo had 260 horsepower for the Japanese market only.

On price, I've only ever seen cared for examples going for $5,500-$9,000. Maybe less if the particular car for sale has hidden issues.

Galant VR4's are awesome as well. A close sibling is also the Galant GSX which had the same AWD system and 5-speed as the VR4 but using the non-turbo 4G63 engine. They sold that for 1-2 years in the same body style before the turbo rally version came out.

Still, you may want to stick with the Subarus for a daily driver that's reliable and legal. Anything that came with the USDM EJ25 engine: 2004+ Impreza WRX, 2005-2010 Legacy GT and all 2004+ Impreza STIs (@300hp vs the WRX's 225-250). The earlier EJ20 WRX's are the more fragile cars mostly due to their 5-speed transmissions. The EJ20 found in the JDM STI of the same era is better and came with the bulletproof 6-speed transmission we also go in the US STI's. Better to stick with any EJ25 turbo car for your purposes.

2Poor2Buy

Thank you all for your input. I started this thread with the following premise:
* Japanese V8 RWD for autocross, since no light bodies exist, strip a luxury model

I suppose I was influenced in part because Nissan replaced their VQ30DETT with a VK45DE for Super GT racing in 2007, Toyota switched from 3S-GTE to 3ZZ-FE for GT500, and similar trends suggest that the manufacturers have switched from forced induction to larger displacement.

I've just found this quote:
"from 2010 onwards all GT500 cars run V8 engines displacing 3.4 liters."

So perhaps these manufacturers have made their switch for no other reason than class qualifications, and forced induction is the cheapest way for me to get more power, not displacement. I figured 4.0L V8 NA would be all the power I need, but such engines apparently aren't in cars appropriate for autocross.

But a consensus is shaping up fairly clearly from posts on this thread
* Forced Induction beats displacement, turbos have improved a lot since my 1990 7M-GTE Supra, lag is a thing of the past
* For autocross, forget using heavy cars with big engines, and go with little cars with AWD and forced induction.
* Newer the engine the better, because the technology is changing so rapidly (VVTi, better turbos, die-cast aluminum, etc)

Suggestions have steered me towards:
* Subarus with their new revision of EJ25 - EJ255 Turbo (or the more refined EJ257 Turbo)
* Toyota Celica All-Trac (Turbo 3S-GTE)
These platforms share one thing: they are so packed in that basic maintenance can hardly be done with the engine in the car. Subaru uses platinum plugs (or used to) so you don't have to change them more often than 60K miles.

If I lived in a state without strict smog laws, I'd retrofit. If I had a shop and was willing to swap engines for a week of every two years, I still might retrofit. As it is, my engine must at least appear stock. If OBD2 (~1998+), I'm stuck keeping that system happy.

I don't need more than 300hp, ever. I don't need to drive over 80mph, ever. I want to be able to blast off from a stop, corner like autocross wherever I drive, and stop "on a dime."

Leather and nice paint? I think they are nice, but I don't need them. Yet every car with powerful trim is going to have them. I'd take a sport-compact car appropriate for autocross with enough space for groceries and a giant dog, and from what I've learned in the last few days: Turbo and AWD.

I'm seriously considering the Celica All-Trac ST185, 2nd generation 3S-GTE, CT26 air-to-air intercooled, open front differential, viscous front-to-rear, and maybe open rear differential. The particular one I found that is in mint condition has one extra benefit: my dad approves of it. Yeah, I'm 45, but he's got money and I don't. So I may 'put up with' an immaculate car with leather and power everything, as he seems willing to loan me the money I need to buy that 1992 cash.

Regardless of what car I get, provided I don't spend all my money up front, I'd put my 'hobby money" into a combination like the following detailed for a Celica All-Trac:

A thick head gasket and offset cam gear(s),boost controller, fix design flaws, update the 3S-GTE minimally such as MR-S buckets, maybe mild cams, have the CT26 drilled out to T04b (for example), update the fuel delivery, change the battery to a NiMH pack under the carpet between the rear struts (If you haven't heard of that, consider it a fancy "move the battery to the trunk" mod), BFA type intake mod, put a fan on the intercooler, install a torsen rear diff, and many minor upgrades including suspension and brakes.

I'd update and freshen the car a bit and tune it to purpose. If it has a great interior, or I buy one on credit, I'm forced to leave that stock.

Any suggestions on actual cars for sale that meet my needs, feel free to email them to my throw-away alias address: nobody2worry4@yahoo.com. I'd be particularly happy to find out about WRX 2.5 Turbo (2005+?) or Celica All-Trac (or similar model) that has hail damage, or a cat ripped the hell out of the interior. That way I'm paying for the mechanicals, but none of the pretty stuff. That way I'd complete the project as intended: true Racing seat or light GT seat, passenger seat optional!, noise insulating carpet, yank the AC, no stereo required... you get the idea.

Please keep offering suggestions on models, project suggestions, comments, tell me I have a screw loose, it's all good. I'm learning a lot from this thread.

I am loyally a Toyota guy, but Nissan, Honda, and I guess I'm convinced to give Subaru's latest iteration (2.5 turbo) a try. Don't suggest FWD unless it is competitive in autocross against RWD; most aren't.

xspsi6

iTrader: (31)

If you want to auto x get an evo 8 or 9 as you will clean up! When I auto crossed my evo 8 I was getting ftd every time out to the point I stopped going with that car because it was not really fair to the other cars (ACR viper and zo6 corvette) so with only little mods it was unstoppable including those pesky miatas lol

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

^^ This, in addition to the aforementioned EJ25x Subarus. Evo 8/9 models are coming down in price now. Still in the middle to high teens but quite good out of the box.

I agree with your thinking about engine displacement in GT500 classes. Manufacturers will use whatever is the most competitive in their arsenal given the class rules they need to abide by. This is one reason the MKIV Supra had so many engine variations in factory racing trim. Weight and class rules.

The All-Trac sounds like it is attainable and you aren't looking for a tremendous amount of horsepower. As others have mentioned, just be aware that it's a very old and very complicated car to work on. SC's are just as old in most cases but they are easier to service given the packaging.

2Poor2Buy

While I'd love to get an Evo 8, WRX-STi, or other newer cars; I cannot afford them. Even Honda now has a great performance AWD system now. I suppose I'll get one of these cars someday, but it will be at least five years from now. I'm not in a position to get a roadster, so MR2/MRS/Miata are not options.

I might, just barely, manage to get a first year Subaru 2.5 Turbo; but doing so means I'd have a car I have to leave completely stock both because it would be financed and because I'd have no extra budget.

Clearly the consensus here is that (for my purposes) I should get a tiny motor in a performance AWD chassis, and put all my money into turbo tech. But in my budget, that puts me back to year 2003 or older, and OBD2 may not allow heavy mods and pass CA smog, so that puts me back to ~1997. Heavily modifying a car drops my budget for the unmodified car to $7K maximum, preferably less.

The Celica All-trac is only an option if I plan to do heavy modifications; so it is still a consideration with more research to be done. Not many other AWD performance cars are available that old. With all the emphasis on tiny motors with heavily modified turbo systems, perhaps a BMW M3 or 3-series - though I doubt I can get replacement engines or modifications cheaply. Any other AWD or RWD little performance cars (not roadsters) come to mind, perhaps non-turbo with a good aftermarket turbo system available?

xspsi6

iTrader: (31)

Sounds like you need an is300 which can be had for 3-7k if you look, Reliable rwd and in your budget.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

2poor2buy,

I hate to even suggest this but your realistic options are extremely limited and beyond the examples you're narrowing down to you may want to hold off on any expenditure for now. I was in a similar boat to the one you are in a couple of years ago before I got my SC. I had around $12k hard cash to work with and possibly a little more to stretch with before I went into the financing route-- which I avoided because, well, I didn't feel like having payments on my head at the time. In retrospect, $4-5k of financing max wouldn't have been too much to deal with but I just wanted to buy a car cash.

Suffice to say, I was looking at all the same cars you were looking at: All-Trac, 2004+ WRX, 2005+ Legacy GT, 2004+ WRX STI, Evo 8/9, SC, 240SX, E36 M3 and my previous '99 Cobra and GTO suggestions. I even looked into a couple of Mercedes 190 2.3-16 Cosworths (very rare) but shied away because I was totally unfamiliar with their engines.

The affordability problem was still a problem for me at that budget level with all the newer turbo AWD cars. I found the mean average price range for a respectable performance car in that caliber in Cali to be about $15k-$20k. Less than that were a few FAR older cars like the All-Trac (rare), a couple of domestics that fit the $10k-$17k range and the handful of popular tuner cars which are very affordable but almost impossible to affordably make smog legal as per Cali requirements.

I even toyed with some 1965-70 Mustangs as well but having owned one previously I knew all too well just how much I would have wanted updated to go, handle, stop, keep me safe in the event of an accident (which happened to me once in my '69 with only lap-belts-- I was lucky) but the true expense of fixing up any classic of that vintage is not anywhere near the budget I had at the time or the one you're stating you have available to you.

In Cali, if you are not willing to play an extremely risky game with smog techs, BAR Survey stops, CHP stops and the 2013 Star program (I wasn't and still won't), you aren't going to want to modify your car all that much. Even the All-Trac needs some help beyond the stock 200hp today.

Like you, I refuse to look at FWD in the "performance" or even "luxury" categories. I do like the Fiesta ST and Fiat 500 Abarth but those are the lone exceptions to me-- as sporty commuter cars, not hard performance cars.

To me, there appears to be a stock/BPU and legal performance ceiling new or used that is only accessible at $14k and above in Cali, due to smog rules. Almost anywhere else in the country, even if there is a smog test, this isn't really an issue since you can pass tailpipe emissions with a modified car.

I agree with xspsi6 in that if you are willing to not have significant horsepower but still want handling and RWD, the IS300 5-speed with the factory LSD option is one of your best bets. As you may know, there still isn't a CARB legal supercharger or turbocharger kit available for it, but it is a fine car.

Edit: the SC 5-speeds as NA cars with 4.27's added are decent (not at all fast but decent and responsive) as well IF you work on their suspensions, lack of LSD and other random things that take the "cruiser" out of them... but the IS300 series is already mostly sorted out of the box and are far closer to auto-x material in stock form.

This is why, only now, this affordable availability is changing with the introduction of factory performance RWD cars like the Genesis Coupe 2.0T R-Spec and FR-S/BRZ. They just have to come down in used values.