Cutting down road noise in this RX
08-13-14, 08:13 AM
#31
I bought the Raamat and Ensolite foam way back in 2007 to insulate a G35 coupe. They sold different packages back then, so I am not sure how much I bought compared to package 1. I think it was a lot more. It never hurts to buy too much. Just use it on the next car! It lasts a long time in storage as my story below confirms.
It was a big roll of the Raamat and a big sheet of the ensolite foam. Now they sell it in pre-cut squares and the Ensolite has a sticky back. I have to use spray adhesive on the ensolite I have. I never used it on the G35 before selling it. I then got a 2008 MINI Cooper S and used it extensively on the rear section. I also used a gallon of liquid paint on deadener product similar to Second Skin Spectrum or Spraydead to line the fenders. I removed the felt material fender liners on the outside of the fenders and painted 4 coats. That made a big difference on tire, road and engine noise. I sold the MINI and got a Lexus CT200h in 2012. I used a bunch of the Raamat & ensolite on the rear of it and the last of my liquid deadener (I had half left) on the fenders of the CT. That car has a noisy engine! The fender coating helped a lot with engine & road noise reduction. I still had enough Raamat left to do the rear of the RX350. Thinking of getting another gallon of liquid stuff, probably Spectrum, to do the RX350 fenders.
It was a big roll of the Raamat and a big sheet of the ensolite foam. Now they sell it in pre-cut squares and the Ensolite has a sticky back. I have to use spray adhesive on the ensolite I have. I never used it on the G35 before selling it. I then got a 2008 MINI Cooper S and used it extensively on the rear section. I also used a gallon of liquid paint on deadener product similar to Second Skin Spectrum or Spraydead to line the fenders. I removed the felt material fender liners on the outside of the fenders and painted 4 coats. That made a big difference on tire, road and engine noise. I sold the MINI and got a Lexus CT200h in 2012. I used a bunch of the Raamat & ensolite on the rear of it and the last of my liquid deadener (I had half left) on the fenders of the CT. That car has a noisy engine! The fender coating helped a lot with engine & road noise reduction. I still had enough Raamat left to do the rear of the RX350. Thinking of getting another gallon of liquid stuff, probably Spectrum, to do the RX350 fenders.
I've gotta be careful in overbuying/spending -- unlike you lucky folks in the US, dollar exchange and shipping makes any product brought in to Canada much more costly.
With that said, paint on deadener is an interesting idea for the outside surfaces of the inner fenders. I noticed on the Second Skin site that they mention two types of Spectrum. Which one are you going to use ..and can I assume that you are using it in conjunction with RaamMat+Ensolite that you are using inside the cargo area (on top of the fenders) -- sort of like a metal sandwich?
So, how do you plan on applying the product to the underside of those fenders, and what's involved with removing the felt fender liners?
Last edited by greyRX; 08-13-14 at 08:56 AM.
08-14-14, 07:41 AM
#32
Moderator
I would use the regular Spectrum, not the Sludge. Apply it with a disposable paint brush. 3 or 4 coats. The inner fender liners on my CT200h, and I assume the RX350 is very similar, were held on with a bunch of plastic push pins clips similar to the ones inside the car. Possibly a couple of regular bolts or screws also. Some of them you push in the small circle in the middle of the cap, some you pop out with a screwdriver or auto trim remover (available at most auto parts stores). Clean the metal off, then do a final wipe with alcohol before painting. Cover the brake assembly & suspension with a big trash bag. I had the entire car up on jack stands for this as it took a couple days allowing it to dry between coats. Easier to do all 4 wheel wells at once. Also, be very careful not to paint over the holes where the push pins clips go in! Stick some colorful tape over them. Wear gloves. Yeah, you end up with a metal sandwich on the inner fenders.
Realize you really cannot do much for the other side of the front fenders due to the engine. You could try removing some of the front carpet to slip some Raamat under that area by your feet. Or try to slip some in from the top edge under the dash assembly. Try looking at eBay Canada for sellers of these or similar products, maybe you can find it in Canada and save shipping.
Realize you really cannot do much for the other side of the front fenders due to the engine. You could try removing some of the front carpet to slip some Raamat under that area by your feet. Or try to slip some in from the top edge under the dash assembly. Try looking at eBay Canada for sellers of these or similar products, maybe you can find it in Canada and save shipping.
08-14-14, 01:23 PM
#33
I would use the regular Spectrum, not the Sludge. Apply it with a disposable paint brush. 3 or 4 coats. The inner fender liners on my CT200h, and I assume the RX350 is very similar, were held on with a bunch of plastic push pins clips similar to the ones inside the car. Possibly a couple of regular bolts or screws also. Some of them you push in the small circle in the middle of the cap, some you pop out with a screwdriver or auto trim remover (available at most auto parts stores). Clean the metal off, then do a final wipe with alcohol before painting. Cover the brake assembly & suspension with a big trash bag. I had the entire car up on jack stands for this as it took a couple days allowing it to dry between coats. Easier to do all 4 wheel wells at once. Also, be very careful not to paint over the holes where the push pins clips go in! Stick some colorful tape over them. Wear gloves. Yeah, you end up with a metal sandwich on the inner fenders.
Realize you really cannot do much for the other side of the front fenders due to the engine. You could try removing some of the front carpet to slip some Raamat under that area by your feet. Or try to slip some in from the top edge under the dash assembly. Try looking at eBay Canada for sellers of these or similar products, maybe you can find it in Canada and save shipping.
Realize you really cannot do much for the other side of the front fenders due to the engine. You could try removing some of the front carpet to slip some Raamat under that area by your feet. Or try to slip some in from the top edge under the dash assembly. Try looking at eBay Canada for sellers of these or similar products, maybe you can find it in Canada and save shipping.
Thanks again for the instructs, Clutchless
eBay Canada sources most of it offers out of the US.
So methinks I may just order package #1 RaamMat plus another yard of Ensolite from the US and have it shipped to border town Blaine, Wash. Then use my freight forwarder to move it here. It will however accumulate another $50 to the base price.
As for paint-on deadener, some of the local big boxers have inexpensive rubberized asphalt compound (heavy gallon cans) they sell.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/do...l#.U-0Z-Wd0yEs
Do you think that will work nearly as well as the Spectrum for the inside fenders?
..although I don't think I would use it inside the car
08-15-14, 06:36 AM
#34
Moderator
Do not get the rubberized asphalt. I would not trust it to hold up under the constant vibration in a car. You do not want it to crack, allow water in then start rusting underneath. Use the proper product for the job. I know SprayDead sells on eBay with free shipping. Maybe they ship to Canada and may be cheaper than getting Second Skin Spectrum. It is reputed to be a good product.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Gallon-SprayDead-Acoustic-Dampning-Liquid-Vibration-Damping-Sound-Deadener-/181211184617?pt=Car_Audio_Video&hash=item2a31073de9&vxp=mtr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Gallon-SprayDead-Acoustic-Dampning-Liquid-Vibration-Damping-Sound-Deadener-/181211184617?pt=Car_Audio_Video&hash=item2a31073de9&vxp=mtr
08-16-14, 09:10 PM
#35
Do not get the rubberized asphalt. I would not trust it to hold up under the constant vibration in a car. You do not want it to crack, allow water in then start rusting underneath. Use the proper product for the job. I know SprayDead sells on eBay with free shipping. Maybe they ship to Canada and may be cheaper than getting Second Skin Spectrum. It is reputed to be a good product.
1 Gallon SprayDead Acoustic Dampning Liquid Vibration Damping Sound Deadener
1 Gallon SprayDead Acoustic Dampning Liquid Vibration Damping Sound Deadener
Thanks again for your effort in helping me along. I take your point about using job-specific materials.
I'm not sure the ~$100 (landed here) justifies only 4 fender wheel wells -- although the remainder could be used elsewhere within the car ...hmm
Because I can source it locally, I'll have to do some more research on the newer rubberized asphalt products -- there are many positive feedback reviews, including no cracking if properly prepped. Another related product that was suggested is formulated for rocker panels ..and is also paintable if needed. I guess a variation on these can be used to do just the back sides of the felt liners instead of --or as well as -- inside the fender cavity against the metal.
Last edited by greyRX; 08-18-14 at 10:23 AM.
08-19-14, 10:56 AM
#36
Moderator
The rubberized asphalt will not crack because it is sitting on a road bed, not constantly moving and vibrating. I doubt it would last long on a car. This is an expensive vehicle. Spend the extra hundred or two now to get the right stuff and avoid headaches later.
Also, the gallon is enough for 2 cars fender wells. I did a MINI Cooper inner fenders and the spare tire area and the CT200h inner fenders with one gallon. This was with 3 or 4 coats.
You only want to paint the metal inner part of the fender not the inside of the felt fender liners. That would probably destroy the felt liners. They would be too heavy and not fit back into place and it would not help with noise reduction. The goal is to deaden the metal to reduce vibration. Just paint the area covered by the liner and it will make a big difference. If you venture outside the lines, the stuff usually dries dark gray so it will blend in. You can always paint black over it for areas outside the fender liner.
Also, the gallon is enough for 2 cars fender wells. I did a MINI Cooper inner fenders and the spare tire area and the CT200h inner fenders with one gallon. This was with 3 or 4 coats.
You only want to paint the metal inner part of the fender not the inside of the felt fender liners. That would probably destroy the felt liners. They would be too heavy and not fit back into place and it would not help with noise reduction. The goal is to deaden the metal to reduce vibration. Just paint the area covered by the liner and it will make a big difference. If you venture outside the lines, the stuff usually dries dark gray so it will blend in. You can always paint black over it for areas outside the fender liner.
08-19-14, 09:23 PM
#37
The rubberized asphalt will not crack because it is sitting on a road bed, not constantly moving and vibrating. I doubt it would last long on a car. This is an expensive vehicle. Spend the extra hundred or two now to get the right stuff and avoid headaches later.
Also, the gallon is enough for 2 cars fender wells. I did a MINI Cooper inner fenders and the spare tire area and the CT200h inner fenders with one gallon. This was with 3 or 4 coats.
You only want to paint the metal inner part of the fender not the inside of the felt fender liners. That would probably destroy the felt liners. They would be too heavy and not fit back into place and it would not help with noise reduction. The goal is to deaden the metal to reduce vibration. Just paint the area covered by the liner and it will make a big difference. If you venture outside the lines, the stuff usually dries dark gray so it will blend in. You can always paint black over it for areas outside the fender liner.
Also, the gallon is enough for 2 cars fender wells. I did a MINI Cooper inner fenders and the spare tire area and the CT200h inner fenders with one gallon. This was with 3 or 4 coats.
You only want to paint the metal inner part of the fender not the inside of the felt fender liners. That would probably destroy the felt liners. They would be too heavy and not fit back into place and it would not help with noise reduction. The goal is to deaden the metal to reduce vibration. Just paint the area covered by the liner and it will make a big difference. If you venture outside the lines, the stuff usually dries dark gray so it will blend in. You can always paint black over it for areas outside the fender liner.
Never thought about the weight on the liners if painted -- other points well taken
Yep, I will only wanna do this once ..so, back to these auto-specific products...
I went back to the Spectrum site and it seems they include some substance suspended in their liquid base (ceramic microspheres?). But I cannot get much info on the Spraydead product -- or it's eBay brother, GT - Liqui-damp -- regarding composition. Albeit they are cheaper than Spectrum, but why? Will Spraydead, et al do as good of a sound-deadening job?
I also find it fascinating taking this on another tangent. It would seem those products are similar to other sticky water-based water-proofing membranes (like Redguard) and thick elastomeric brush-ons [http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/tools-...#.U_QeJWd0yEs] -- notice mention of sound deadening feature. These can be found in other trades disciplines ..shower construction, roofing, siding, etc. Many have fairly high temperature thresholds above what would be needed here. For instance, I have used Mapei Aqua-Defence roll-on WP membrane in various metal patching projects around home (as well as building of interior baths, etc.) and it sure sticks well throughout all 4 seasons.
08-20-14, 06:57 AM
#38
Moderator
The Q&A indicates that Canadian Tire does sell it for use on RVs for sound damping , so it appears it would work for the inner fender.
I don't know much about the difference between Spectrum and Spray Dead. The cost difference in the US is basically $5 more plus shipping costs for Spectrum. About $15 - $20 total increase. I doubt there is much difference that you would notice. I think the ceramic beads stuff is for heat insulation.
The product I used (QuietCoat) is difficult to find now, it was the only one I knew about when I bought it years ago. I will probably get Spectrum next time. http://www.quietrock.com/quietcoat
Lizard Skin is another similar product. http://www.lizardskin.com/sound-control-insulation.html
I don't know much about the difference between Spectrum and Spray Dead. The cost difference in the US is basically $5 more plus shipping costs for Spectrum. About $15 - $20 total increase. I doubt there is much difference that you would notice. I think the ceramic beads stuff is for heat insulation.
The product I used (QuietCoat) is difficult to find now, it was the only one I knew about when I bought it years ago. I will probably get Spectrum next time. http://www.quietrock.com/quietcoat
Lizard Skin is another similar product. http://www.lizardskin.com/sound-control-insulation.html
Last edited by Clutchless; 08-20-14 at 07:03 AM.
08-20-14, 01:32 PM
#39
Yeah, I may end up investing in White Knight or Kool Seal-type stuff.
And I think I can duplicate the commercial products like Quietcoat, Lizardskin, Spectrum, etc. by mixing a ratio of microbubbles/spheres into any of the non-asphalt elastomeric roofing compounds (like White Knight) to a thicker roll-on consistancy
But thanks for all the paint-on options Clutchless -- it really got me onto a researching kick
Back to "deadening mat" -- was into Home Depot this morning and ran across some " Foil Backed Self Adhesive Foam Pipe And Duct Wrap " [http://www.homedepot.ca/product/foam...5-foot/964013] -- it also comes in 12" widths. Looks like the heavy aluminum covering covers a 3.5 mm soft butyl-type dense foam with peel/stick backing -- definitely not asphalt-based. It will take 180F.
If it's truly useable, I may experiment with that wrap stuff as an adjunct (non-critical areas) to the package #1 contents I just ordered from RaamAudio.
I'll keep everyone posted on my little SD project in a couple of weeks, when I get back into working on the car.
And I think I can duplicate the commercial products like Quietcoat, Lizardskin, Spectrum, etc. by mixing a ratio of microbubbles/spheres into any of the non-asphalt elastomeric roofing compounds (like White Knight) to a thicker roll-on consistancy
But thanks for all the paint-on options Clutchless -- it really got me onto a researching kick
Back to "deadening mat" -- was into Home Depot this morning and ran across some " Foil Backed Self Adhesive Foam Pipe And Duct Wrap " [http://www.homedepot.ca/product/foam...5-foot/964013] -- it also comes in 12" widths. Looks like the heavy aluminum covering covers a 3.5 mm soft butyl-type dense foam with peel/stick backing -- definitely not asphalt-based. It will take 180F.
If it's truly useable, I may experiment with that wrap stuff as an adjunct (non-critical areas) to the package #1 contents I just ordered from RaamAudio.
I'll keep everyone posted on my little SD project in a couple of weeks, when I get back into working on the car.
Last edited by greyRX; 09-04-14 at 07:46 PM.
09-06-14, 08:44 AM
#40
Just a short update: I have ripped out most of trim from the cargo area and installed all the Raamat and Ensolite I'm going to put in ..which was a lot by my guage.
Photos were taken before and during to help me to remember later where everything went and how.
The leaning over into the cavity has been back-breaking for this 66-year-old
Very few cuts or scratches though, even without the use of gloves.
The Raamat cuts easily with some old scissors and a snap-off knife, and is easily laid using just a small roller and a short length of plywood stick.
The light-weight 1/8" peel 'n stick Ensolite is even stickier so was much more difficult to overlay onto the Raamat. That stuff was just smoothed into place by some very sore fingers.
Be forewarned -- all this can be a time consuming tedious process.
If this proves a success in markedly cutting down the noise I will update later with some pics of my adventure.
Photos were taken before and during to help me to remember later where everything went and how.
The leaning over into the cavity has been back-breaking for this 66-year-old
Very few cuts or scratches though, even without the use of gloves.
The Raamat cuts easily with some old scissors and a snap-off knife, and is easily laid using just a small roller and a short length of plywood stick.
The light-weight 1/8" peel 'n stick Ensolite is even stickier so was much more difficult to overlay onto the Raamat. That stuff was just smoothed into place by some very sore fingers.
Be forewarned -- all this can be a time consuming tedious process.
If this proves a success in markedly cutting down the noise I will update later with some pics of my adventure.
Last edited by greyRX; 09-07-14 at 08:11 AM.
09-08-14, 12:56 PM
#42
First phase is complete..
The insulating of the cargo area is now complete. The job took me about 10 hours to complete.
The first thing I did was to take photos of the area before yanking out the trays, etc. This helped in replacing the proper clips to their right places. I’ve now included here several pics of my install process. First 5 photos in this post and the rest in the second & third posts.
As mentioned it was tedious process (not made any easier by some crud I picked up from a recent Alaska cruise
)
I covered as much of the area as possible first with Raamat followed by peel ‘n stick Ensolite. The mat went down quite well with few bodily cuts inflicted. But the Ensolite was a little different story: it is so flimsy and sticky that it was difficult to slide into tight areas. Both products did have to be cut into small pieces in order to fit between the myriad of wires, and up behind some panels. As well, it was easier to insulate up in behind the PS fender areas above the wheel well humps, but had to make due with just the visible surface areas on the sub-woofer (DS) side -- I was not prepared to remove the S-W assembly.
I also used some (yellow) 3/8 closed cell foam – I had laying around -- to fortify the areas around the sub-woofer area and anywhere else I felt needing.
After everything was laid, some thin laminate flooring underlayment was cut to go underneath the spare tire. I figured this would help protect the Ensolite underneath it ..and add even more sound absorption.
So now the big question: was it worth all the effort of installing two layers of sound dampening materials?
I think it definitely quietened the rear end of the car, perhaps by as much as 60%! But I now also suspect it has alerted me to other road noise sources within the car namely, the front cab, specifically the front wheel well areas. So we’re not done yet.
Because those front end areas are a lot more difficult to remediate from within the car, it will now be to pick up some RV elastomeric paint and mix in an appropriate amount of microspheres/bubbles. This can then be applied to the (outside) inner wheel wells on all 4 corners.
That will be about as far as I’ll be willing to take this. Currently, there is a definite improvement over road noise and this next step can only help further.
Yes, I agree that the combination of 19” wheels and low profile tires are the main culprit of the apparent noise. But we were not prepared to change those items out, especially since the Michelins are new. And besides, I feel that any great tire will become noisy after just a few thousand miles anyway.
In our case, mitigation through overall noise abatement (isolation) will be the better solution here
The first thing I did was to take photos of the area before yanking out the trays, etc. This helped in replacing the proper clips to their right places. I’ve now included here several pics of my install process. First 5 photos in this post and the rest in the second & third posts.
As mentioned it was tedious process (not made any easier by some crud I picked up from a recent Alaska cruise
)I covered as much of the area as possible first with Raamat followed by peel ‘n stick Ensolite. The mat went down quite well with few bodily cuts inflicted. But the Ensolite was a little different story: it is so flimsy and sticky that it was difficult to slide into tight areas. Both products did have to be cut into small pieces in order to fit between the myriad of wires, and up behind some panels. As well, it was easier to insulate up in behind the PS fender areas above the wheel well humps, but had to make due with just the visible surface areas on the sub-woofer (DS) side -- I was not prepared to remove the S-W assembly.
I also used some (yellow) 3/8 closed cell foam – I had laying around -- to fortify the areas around the sub-woofer area and anywhere else I felt needing.
After everything was laid, some thin laminate flooring underlayment was cut to go underneath the spare tire. I figured this would help protect the Ensolite underneath it ..and add even more sound absorption.
So now the big question: was it worth all the effort of installing two layers of sound dampening materials?
I think it definitely quietened the rear end of the car, perhaps by as much as 60%! But I now also suspect it has alerted me to other road noise sources within the car namely, the front cab, specifically the front wheel well areas. So we’re not done yet.
Because those front end areas are a lot more difficult to remediate from within the car, it will now be to pick up some RV elastomeric paint and mix in an appropriate amount of microspheres/bubbles. This can then be applied to the (outside) inner wheel wells on all 4 corners.
That will be about as far as I’ll be willing to take this. Currently, there is a definite improvement over road noise and this next step can only help further.
Yes, I agree that the combination of 19” wheels and low profile tires are the main culprit of the apparent noise. But we were not prepared to change those items out, especially since the Michelins are new. And besides, I feel that any great tire will become noisy after just a few thousand miles anyway.
In our case, mitigation through overall noise abatement (isolation) will be the better solution here
Last edited by greyRX; 09-08-14 at 01:23 PM.
09-08-14, 01:02 PM
#44
First phase is complete ..part III
Here is the last group of photos.
Forum Moderator: please feel free to edit or compile these pics into a more concise format -- thanks.
Forum Moderator: please feel free to edit or compile these pics into a more concise format -- thanks.
Last edited by greyRX; 09-08-14 at 01:25 PM.
09-09-14, 11:38 AM
#45
Moderator
Great job! You covered more with ensolite than I did. I agree more of the noise from the front is now apparent. I may try to lift up some of the carpet edge under the instrument panel and see if any deadener will fit back there. I have another type stored in my attic that has ensolite foam (1/2 " thick on one side and 1/8" on the other) bonded to the deadener material in the middle. I had used it installing in wall speakers in my house. It is very heavy and is attached with spray adhesive.
What product are you getting that you will mix microspheres in it? I bought a gallon of SprayDead and plan to paint my wheel wells within the next week. I will take some photos this time. ,
What product are you getting that you will mix microspheres in it? I bought a gallon of SprayDead and plan to paint my wheel wells within the next week. I will take some photos this time. ,