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If anyone hasn't seen this yet. "2020 Supra The Untold True Story", it may add a little more insight about the development of the Supra behind the scenes. Adds more respect to the Japanese philosophy when it comes to manufacturing. It's crazy the remarks in the video about the rigorous nature of quality control by the Japanese. They kept rejecting parts from BMW over and over again because it didn't meet Toyota's standards and not a single bolt or rivet was not extraneously scrutinized by the Japanese. This is the Toyota Way!
For a long time I have been very familiar with the Lean and Kaizen philosophy of manufacturing pioneered by the Japanese (specifically Toyota). This video highlights what sets Japanese manufacturing as the best from the rest of the world.
Makes me proud to own a Lexus. Toyota is just an amazing company!
I’ve seen this debate on a couple of the car forums I check in on from time to time, I don’t know if I’d say the F is the new Supra, I definitely see the similarities though. The F is much more focused than the Supra was. Mark my words, the MkV is the proper new Supra. There are a lot of doubts because the car isn’t on the tarmac yet, once people have had time with it opinions are definitely going to change, maybe not so much on the looks though. Give it some time, I know there’s some bmw influence but people will get over it. I Really wish it kept more styling cues from the FT1, and I really wish this came in a manual and still don’t understand why it doesn’t since the new corolla hatch comes in manual, so weird.
The RC F is all Lexus/Toyota. The Supra is all BMW. Lets see where the reliability falls. Toyota makes a deal with BMW and guess who gets the short end of the stick.
Soft? You obviously never owned one with stock suspension. They were very loud inside, and very stiff for a street car. Much stiffer than the '08 IS F or the '16 GS
I will definitely have to agree to disagree. I have enough data/owner opinions and seen enough cornering attitude to easily see squat, dive, yaw, lift and roll etc. Its underpinnings were greatly shared with the Lexus SC300. I also believe, the chassis torsional rigidity due has increased drastically over the last 30 years with more engineering focus on it in recent years.
This is a Supra doing a slow speed slalom and the roll/squat/yaw are all very apparent.
Yeah, the targa top units suck for flex. Your picture shows one with the top removed. Worst possible configuration ever. That's why I didn't buy one. 0.93g targa vs. 0.98 g hardtop.
But the RC F pulled 0.95g in the same test with vastly better tires. So much for progress.
Bet money if you sliced out the top of the RC F or GS F, they'd flex like an aluminum lawn chair too.
To address the original intent of this - no, the RC F is not the Supra. Supras have an inline 6. All of them regardless of whether they are boosted or not. So there is no chance the RC cars in any form should ever be called Supra.
I agree missing side panels of the roof can account for some of the excessive roll/squat/pitch and yaw, but I disagree that is the entire reason. Even on a banked turn, the hard top exhibits significant body roll/pitch/dive and yaw. The inner side lift due to decompression of the inner strut makes it quite apparent. Then again, even a Porsche 911 (993) in those days used to have quite a lot of roll/pitch/dive.
Heavier RCF going through a tight and sudden evasive maneuvering slalom turns on flat surface.
And I see the same problem in your RC F picture the IS F has - inside rear wheel showing considerable daylight instead of being planted - too soft front end springs allowing too much roll and lifting the tire. I've been to the track in the IS F and measured its performance. It's overweight, undersprung, and has horribly invasive stability controls. Perfect for the person they targeted - the neophyte. I heard the same philosophy for the RC F - "approachable" and while I get what they're trying to accomplish, it surely isn't making the world stand up and notice the F cars.
The original Fast n' the Furious made the Supra the icon it is today (thank you Craig Lieberman!). Anyone denying this is foolish at best. I was there when MkIV owners were selling their cars to a movie production company and I bought mine for $28,500 in 1997 with 32k miles on it. The RC F doesn't have a movie franchise to make it iconic, and even in the latest iteration, it lacks what others have provided. When Lexus and Toyota finally decide they need to produce performance cars that turn heads for their performance, we'll all be proud we chose this brand. Until then, we need to be happy with the fanatic focus on reliability Toyota and Lexus bring to the market and accept the idea other marques will win the "comparos" in the motoring press.
To address the original intent of this - no, the RC F is not the Supra. Supras have an inline 6. All of them regardless of whether they are boosted or not. So there is no chance the RC cars in any form should ever be called Supra.
Agreed I find the comparisons odd they have nothing in common except being from same company. It's more than likely the disappointment with the MKV that is making folks look at "what else" Toyota has that was built in house.
Originally Posted by konichiwa3
Great tear down, showing why the 2JZ is such a stout legendary engine.
The 2jzgte is an anomaly imo, the aftermarket "exposed" the potential. I'm close to mid 8's at the wheels on mine which is insane. I bought a spare motor to build but questioning if I will ever need it ha ha. Crazy thing is I don't want 1000HP I just want higher compression with same power level.
The new Supra is a BMW. I completely agree the RCF is the real new Supra. Just with a Lexus badge on it
I'm disappointed that Toyota didn't take more of a leadership role in this partnership... I can understand it for other cars, like the 86, but this is the Supra. I don't think the RC F is really the next Supra, exactly, but I do like it. Personally, I'm a bigger fan of the GS F, but I'm a sucker for sedans...
And I see the same problem in your RC F picture the IS F has - inside rear wheel showing considerable daylight instead of being planted -
I would have to say, it would have to be a very hard suspension for it to not have any "give" in a very hard/sharp evasive maneuvering RCF is doing there. It was a Cayman GTS vs RCF comparison. Cayman GTS, arguably one of the best handling sports car of today, even if the RCF is rolling a few degrees more, you can still see some sunlight under it because of the sudden break right maneuver. RCF is more of a combination of a luxury/performance/practical than a GTS,.is a pure focused sports car with mid-engine handling its prime goal.
I have never tracked my RCF (and probably never will since the local track shut down a few years back), but pushed it pretty hard through high speed turns with TVD in track mode. It is a lot of fun and inspires a lot of confidence especially in high rpms considering it is not a track-focused car. I am looking to replace the mushy OEM MPSS tires with the new stiffer MPS4S tires, though.
The original Fast n' the Furious made the Supra the icon it is today (thank you Craig Lieberman!). Anyone denying this is foolish at best. I was there when MkIV owners were selling their cars to a movie production
company and I bought mine for $28,500 in 1997 with 32k miles on it. The RC F doesn't have a movie franchise to make it iconic, and even in the latest iteration, it lacks what others have provided. When Lexus and Toyota finally decide they need to produce performance cars that turn heads for their performance, we'll all be proud we chose this brand. Until then, we need to be happy with the fanatic focus on reliability Toyota and Lexus bring to the market and accept the idea other marques will win the "comparos" in the motoring press.
Yeah, the Supra was made famous by the F&F movie as I have said it numerous times. Before that, it did not have the mythical status among the tuner crowd. I agree Supra lineage is very different than the RCF that is still in its infancy. Its legacy yet remains to be seen especially after the track edition RCF is on the streets. There is a possibility that there is no 2nd gen RCF, which would give the RCF a cult status because it is such a niche market car. A turbo inline-6 vs a high-revving N/A large displacement V8. I also think the A90 Supra is being unfairly criticized because it has a BMW engine and the chassis/interior were also BMW designed. Also, it is a 2 seater, which no Supra ever was. It seems like a modern day RX7 to me. People need to give it a chance and see it turn out. RCF is in a new super hero movie with super powers, but I doubt it would make any difference since it is not a movie about cars.
If anyone hasn't seen this yet. "2020 Supra The Untold True Story", it may add a little more insight about the development of the Supra behind the scenes. Adds more respect to the Japanese philosophy when it comes to manufacturing. It's crazy the remarks in the video about the rigorous nature of quality control by the Japanese. They kept rejecting parts from BMW over and over again because it didn't meet Toyota's standards and not a single bolt or rivet was not extraneously scrutinized by the Japanese. This is the Toyota Way!
For a long time I have been very familiar with the Lean and Kaizen philosophy of manufacturing pioneered by the Japanese (specifically Toyota). This video highlights what sets Japanese manufacturing as the best from the rest of the world.
Makes me proud to own a Lexus. Toyota is just an amazing company!
Did not see any replies to your post and so I will wade in here. I've watched every video and piece of press on the new Supra since the FT1 was announced. I was very excited for what I thought they would do with the car. Once I saw/heard that it was getting smaller and lighter I was even more interested. The BMW motor rumors started to dull that feeling. I've always liked what BMWs brought in terms of driving but never wanted to deal with the reliability issues. I was also very interested in an M2 though and even went and drove it. Insanely fun little car but expensive with a very plain interior (how old am I for caring about that now?!). The competition version upped the ante further because I always lusted after an M3 and this seemed like a hell of a package. Always worried about the cost of breakage along with the hassle of taking it in or worse having it towed. Back to the point here....I saw the video you posted and I got some measure of comfort from watching those very picky Japanese gentlemen obsessing over each nut and bolt. THAT is the Japanese car industry I have known over the years and why I tend to keep giving them money. They just don't want to make me any sports cars any more.
IF, and this is a huge IF, the japanese have fixed some of the nonsense the germans pull - I am interested in this car again.
JD power 2019 dependability ranking just confirmed why we should consider ourselves lucky for a company like Lexus. I have owned a German performance car and boy did I receive the wrong end of the stick. Every other month was a new nightmare.
Porsche was ranked number 2 for 2019 JD power Dependability but check out this nightmare people with Porsche Cayman GT4 are experiencing. Just terrible. A whole strut tower just disintegrating and this is common going by the comments posted on YouTube
JD power 2019 dependability ranking just confirmed why we should consider ourselves lucky for a company like Lexus. I have owned a German performance car and boy did I receive the wrong end of the stick. Every other month was a new nightmare.
Porsche was ranked number 2 for 2019 JD power Dependability but check out this nightmare people with Porsche Cayman GT4 are experiencing. Just terrible. A whole strut tower just disintegrating and this is common going by the comments posted on YouTube
Every time I have come close to buying a German performance car, I just google (model name here problems) and then I'm over it for a little while. It really sounds like it becomes another job keeping up with the thing. I want the car in my heart judging only by specs, but my head keeps saying not to do it.
I never know what to make of JD power numbers either. I wish the automotive journalists writing about these cars had to live with them long term or at least were upfront about it in the articles they wrote. BMWs are fun but it costs XXXX to own one above and beyond the cost of entry for 5 years. Something like that. Maybe it's an acceptable number, but having no idea has kept me away. Some people have them and experience no/low issues. Others swear off the Germans forever. Somewhere in there, the truth is lurking. I've had very consistent good luck with Japanese cars over the last 20 years.
02-12-19, 02:19 PM
