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Old 12-26-16, 07:27 PM   #1
ssmoked
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Default Why is the RCF so heavy

Compared to direct competitors its a pig by over 2-400 pounds. Before anyone claim it has a heavy 5.0 v8, the corvette stingray has a 6.2 v8 and undercuts the rcf by 5-600 pounds. I know its not apples to apples, but the rear seats and seat belts doesn't weight more than 50 pounds.
So where does the excess weight come from? The Frankenstein chassis? What's weighing down the RCF that competitors lack?
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Old 12-26-16, 07:43 PM   #2
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frankenstein chassis, they used the IS-C midsection which came from the convertible which has extra bracing. Corvette has an aluminum frame too
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Old 12-26-16, 08:15 PM   #3
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Default What if the RCF was just 400-600 LBS lighter?

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Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen View Post
frankenstein chassis, they used the IS-C midsection which came from the convertible which has extra bracing. Corvette has an aluminum frame too
The "Frankenstein" chassis is it. Plus, the Lexus IS a luxury sports sedan. I noticed the difference immediately between my RCF and my new
Camaro SS. With the Lexus, it's like you're "sealed" into a capsule of sorts. No wind/road noise - very smooth and quiet, I'd be going 110 MPH
on the freeway easy, if I didn't watch it. I swear there was little difference ride wise with that car between 55 MPH and 110 MPH. Superb.

I don't necessarily think that weight-savings was a goal with the Lexus Engineers, though I sometimes wonder if it should have been?

I almost didn't buy my RCF initially because of all the negative reviews (that idiot Jeremy Clarkson for one) regarding it's weight - because
after my 2009 Eclipse (V6) experience - I SWORE that I was NEVER gonna buy a PIG of a car again! However, after test driving it, it didn't
really "seem" that bad. But perhaps it was always in the back of my mind?

As I said however, I wondered "WHAT IF?"

"Would I have kept my RC if there was a conscious effort by Lexus Engineers to radically attack the weight as one of the design goals?

I was actually between the M4 and the RCF a couple of years ago, because I had gone to the BMW Thernal race track in CA here - and LOVED
driving those lightweight "tourqey" M4's. But the styling of the Lexus is what caught my eye. The M4 just seemed plain and dated to me, especially
the interior. That, and the horrible experience my daughter has had with her no-oil-dipstick-having, constantly-in-the-shop BMW 328.

I very much enjoyed the "throttle-steer" sensitivity of the Camaro SS (yes, I do THOROUGHLY test drive my prospective cars before buying and WARN the
sales person to that effect)

Looking at the press release for the Gen 6 2016 Camaro SS, you can see that (less) WEIGHT was a MAIN design GOAL:

DETROIT "LESS WEIGHT AND MORE POWER is the combination for performance success
and engineers of the 2016 Camaro have the numbers to prove it. With weight savings
of up to 390 pounds, the all-new Camaro delivers performance numbers
that reset the benchmark for the segment."

"Chevrolet testing shows the all-new, 455-hp Camaro SS coupe the most
powerful Camaro SS ever sprints from 0-60 mph in 4.0 seconds and covers
the quarter-mile in 12.3 seconds, when equipped with the all-new eight-speed
paddle-shift automatic transmission."

Lexus RCF

Length 185.2 in
Width 72.6 in
Height 54.7 in
Curb weight 3,958 lb (5.0 V8)

468 hp / 389 lb-ft torque

060 MPH 4.4 (SEC)
Quarter mile 12.7
22 mpg in the city and 32 on the highway


Chevrolet Camaro SS (sixth generation)

Length 188.3 in
Width 74.7 in
Height 53.1 in (1,350 mm)
Curb weight 3,760 lb (6.2 V8)

455 hp / 455 lb-ft torque

0-60 mph 4.0 (SEC)
Quarter mile 12.3
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Old 12-27-16, 07:12 AM   #4
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I've posted some of the potential reasons before but I believe it's really a combination of factors. As a safety factor, would I really want a daily driving sports car that has an aluminum chassis/body? Sure it's a franken-frame but can anyone here make the claim that it's not optimized? Fatigue wise, how important are the seats when driving a long distance? I'd be willing to bet that if Lexus took 50 lbs. out of the seats as a "design goal", someone here would be complaining about how uncomfortable they were. Reliability and comfort is the Lexus signature and sometimes may require some over engineering.

1. Sound deadening materials
2. Safety features
3. Frame
4. Quality components = Reliability (seats are an example)

Personally, I could care less about 2-300 lbs. I will rarely if ever take this car to the track. As a DD, when I accelerate the RCF on an uphill, freeway on-ramp and effortlessly position myself safely in traffic, it brings a smile to my face every time. Enjoy the car or buy something else that meets your needs.
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Old 12-27-16, 12:26 PM   #5
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If I was worried about weight I would be driving an Ariel Atom....or maybe I would just go on a diet as often as my wife and girlfriends do....
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Old 12-27-16, 12:30 PM   #6
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yeah, the rear seats don't weigh 300 lbs, but they sit on 15 inches of frame that the Corvette doesn't have. Slice off 12-15 inches off the RCF to include roof, sub frame exhaust, etc and take out the rear seats and you'll get 200-250 lbs. IMO the RCF is a GT, so its competitors are the M4, S5 and C63. If it doesn't have two doors and 4 seats, then I don't consider it a competitor, since these were my criteria when looking for a car. Anyone who cross shops the RCF with the Corvette will be disappointed. The M4 weighs 3600, S5 is 3900 and C63 is 4100 lbs. Doesn't seem too heavy compared to its true competitors. Thousands of online "critics" compare the RCF with the M4 and say the RCF is too heavy, but then turn around and laud the 4100 lb C63 or 4000 lb RS5. Yeah, they have AWD, but is this a real advantage on the track?
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Old 12-27-16, 12:41 PM   #7
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Lexus tried to kill two birds with one stone by developing the Lexus RC platform to support both a hardtop and a convertible version (hence the IS-C midsection used in the frankenstein chassis). This is evident with the Lexus LF-C2 concept that failed to materialize due to supposed balking from US Lexus dealerships that they wanted Lexus to focus more on developing a volume selling 7-seater RX instead of a low-volume/typically-poorer selling convertible version of the RC.

When comparing the curb weights of the base model IS350/RC350/GS350, it's apparent that the RC350 is the odd-ball with a shorter wheelbase and less interior space than the Lexus IS350 yet having a curb weight comparable to the longer wheelbase and significantly more spacious GS350.

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Old 12-27-16, 02:22 PM   #8
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The nonexistent convertible version of the RCF is so sexy!!! Wished Lexus will just go ahead with it instead of the 7 passenger RX.



Quote:
Originally Posted by redspencer View Post
Lexus tried to kill two birds with one stone by developing the Lexus RC platform to support both a hardtop and a convertible version (hence the IS-C midsection used in the frankenstein chassis). This is evident with the Lexus LF-C2 concept that failed to materialize due to supposed balking from US Lexus dealerships that they wanted Lexus to focus more on developing a volume selling 7-seater RX instead of a low-volume/typically-poorer selling convertible version of the RC.

When comparing the curb weights of the base model IS350/RC350/GS350, it's apparent that the RC350 is the odd-ball with a shorter wheelbase and less interior space than the Lexus IS350 yet having a curb weight comparable to the longer wheelbase and significantly more spacious GS350.

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Old 12-27-16, 03:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexusnutt View Post
I've posted some of the potential reasons before but I believe it's really a combination of factors. As a safety factor, would I really want a daily driving sports car that has an aluminum chassis/body? Sure it's a franken-frame but can anyone here make the claim that it's not optimized? Fatigue wise, how important are the seats when driving a long distance? I'd be willing to bet that if Lexus took 50 lbs. out of the seats as a "design goal", someone here would be complaining about how uncomfortable they were. Reliability and comfort is the Lexus signature and sometimes may require some over engineering.

1. Sound deadening materials
2. Safety features
3. Frame
4. Quality components = Reliability (seats are an example)

Personally, I could care less about 2-300 lbs. I will rarely if ever take this car to the track. As a DD, when I accelerate the RCF on an uphill, freeway on-ramp and effortlessly position myself safely in traffic, it brings a smile to my face every time. Enjoy the car or buy something else that meets your needs.
I was referring to the performance aspect only. Lexus advertise the RCF and GSF as most powerful race focused trims in the lineup, as supported by their advertisement and particular model makeup. Unfortunately they came short on performance and weight, two very crucial components in the category it competes in.
Btw sound deadening foam material doesnt weigh anything, all modern cars have adequate safety features, again quality reliable seats doesn't weigh more than 50 pounds tops (all lexus models are pretty high in quality btw). The frame is the real issue
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Old 12-27-16, 03:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanrcf View Post
yeah, the rear seats don't weigh 300 lbs, but they sit on 15 inches of frame that the Corvette doesn't have. Slice off 12-15 inches off the RCF to include roof, sub frame exhaust, etc and take out the rear seats and you'll get 200-250 lbs. IMO the RCF is a GT, so its competitors are the M4, S5 and C63. If it doesn't have two doors and 4 seats, then I don't consider it a competitor, since these were my criteria when looking for a car. Anyone who cross shops the RCF with the Corvette will be disappointed. The M4 weighs 3600, S5 is 3900 and C63 is 4100 lbs. Doesn't seem too heavy compared to its true competitors. Thousands of online "critics" compare the RCF with the M4 and say the RCF is too heavy, but then turn around and laud the 4100 lb C63 or 4000 lb RS5. Yeah, they have AWD, but is this a real advantage on the track?
The M4 imbarrasess the RCF from a dig or a roll, the RS5 (not s5) has awd and dct which also imbarrasses the rcf with the 1/4 numbers, the ctsv and c63 might be heavy but it supplements with raw power which the rcf lacks.
How many owners actually live on the auto cross track with their luxury DD? Most of them take it on the drag strip a few times tops, with majority miles on the public streets.

I am not hating or regretting getting the RCF, but am sticking with the fact that lexus came short. If I didn't get such a good price (in the S5, ATSV, c350, c43amg price range), I would have opted for the competitors. Hence thats why most owners received large discounts on their new RCF
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Old 12-27-16, 06:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexusnutt View Post
I've posted some of the potential reasons before but I believe it's really a combination of factors. As a safety factor, would I really want a daily driving sports car that has an aluminum chassis/body? Sure it's a franken-frame but can anyone here make the claim that it's not optimized? Fatigue wise, how important are the seats when driving a long distance? I'd be willing to bet that if Lexus took 50 lbs. out of the seats as a "design goal", someone here would be complaining about how uncomfortable they were. Reliability and comfort is the Lexus signature and sometimes may require some over engineering.

1. Sound deadening materials
2. Safety features
3. Frame
4. Quality components = Reliability (seats are an example)

Personally, I could care less about 2-300 lbs. I will rarely if ever take this car to the track. As a DD, when I accelerate the RCF on an uphill, freeway on-ramp and effortlessly position myself safely in traffic, it brings a smile to my face every time. Enjoy the car or buy something else that meets your needs.
Good Analysis & as far as the track that's pretty much how I feel also. IF I'm ever able to get a Real Tune on the RCF, i'd probably be satisfied without doing anything else to it (I've always said I Do Not want to turn it into a Loud Sounding Hot Rod) I Love all the things that Lexus brings to the table, as far as the combination of Power, Luxury & Looks (the Apexi Controller really made a Big Difference in it also)
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Old 12-27-16, 08:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmoked View Post
The M4 imbarrasess the RCF from a dig or a roll, the RS5 (not s5) has awd and dct which also imbarrasses the rcf with the 1/4 numbers, the ctsv and c63 might be heavy but it supplements with raw power which the rcf lacks.
How many owners actually live on the auto cross track with their luxury DD? Most of them take it on the drag strip a few times tops, with majority miles on the public streets.

I am not hating or regretting getting the RCF, but am sticking with the fact that lexus came short. If I didn't get such a good price (in the S5, ATSV, c350, c43amg price range), I would have opted for the competitors. Hence thats why most owners received large discounts on their new RCF
I guess it did come up short if you bought the car to race I bought the car for comfort and refinement first!. Lexus reliability, resale and luxury and does the 1/4 mile in the 12s. Where do I sign up? Who cares if car A or B is faster? I do assume some of us owners are still young enough to be influenced by such things, but clearly not us all. I was a huge fan of FI, but I'm done with that and actually happy that the RCF is NA. I plan to have this car for a long time and BMWs and Mercedes turbos scare me, frankly. Would never drive a GM product know matter how much engine they give it. Been there, done that. I still see 10-15 year Lexus on the road and that makes me feel good about my decision. I rarely see an E46 M3 with its exploding engine on the road today.

By the way, the RS5 does not embarrass the RCF in the 1/4 mile. Check out its trap speed and tell me who would win from a roll? If a car RWD or AWD isn't trapping at least 114 mph, its going to have a hard time with an RCF.
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Old 12-28-16, 09:32 AM   #13
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Very interesting debate, but if you are not happy with weight to horsepower, then add more horsepower. I am sure the motor is relatively "bullet " proof and I would bet dollars for donuts that Lexus under powered the ability. Personally I would like to have above 500 Horsepower in the car, but I guess that is why there are tuning shops. I plan on bumping mine up, even though I an happy with it as is, but the car can always use more.

Last edited by BluByYou; 12-29-16 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 12-29-16, 08:51 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmoked View Post
I was referring to the performance aspect only. Lexus advertise the RCF and GSF as most powerful race focused trims in the lineup, as supported by their advertisement and particular model makeup. Unfortunately they came short on performance and weight, two very crucial components in the category it competes in.
Btw sound deadening foam material doesnt weigh anything, all modern cars have adequate safety features, again quality reliable seats doesn't weigh more than 50 pounds tops (all lexus models are pretty high in quality btw). The frame is the real issue
I wanted to give your response a few days of thought before replying.

First of all, you did NOT refer to performance aspect only. You referred to the RCF as a "pig". You also stated that Lexus claimed that the RCF/GSF are the most powerful race focused trims in their lineup. That may be a true statement as they're not making the statement against the competition and/or the industry. I've included the press release.

Press Release
http://pressroom.lexus.com/releases/...oduct+news.htm

You oversimplified sound deadening as "foam material" that doesn't weigh anything. There is a lot of technology and design that goes into reducing road/engine noise as exemplified by the LS 600h schematic below. Any "feature" for safety, sound or luxury adds up. I can almost guarantee that the weight of the rear seats compounded with the foam injection process in the front seats adds up to more than 50 lbs.

IMO, Lexus did not necessarily come up "short" because they delivered exactly what's advertised. Nonetheless, it sounds like you're bitter or "imbarrassed" because you didn't do your homework beforehand.

BTW.
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Old 12-29-16, 09:16 AM   #15
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Hey stop fat shaming cars, it's just a little heavy that's all

Anywho, I agree that Lexus always seems to be falling short on the performance side when compared to its competitors but no competitor can match with Lexus' reliability and longevity. Plus, most of the competitors won't come with the luxury when it comes to the sports cars section. An example of this is the seats. Look at the M4 seats, they are manual, basically simple seats and probably a heck of a lot lighter than the ones in the RC-F... things like that is why I chose the RC-F too, I wanted the nice luxury and comfort but in a fast, powerful sports car, and a reliable one too A lot of the competition eliminates comfort or luxury in lieu of performance whereas Lexus, for the most part, gives you all you can get... except in the US where for some magical reason, some of the nice options - power folding mirrors - are not offered
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