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Agree with "make do with RWD". I expect AWD will always be superior in low traction scenarios. Letting the computer choose between 4 wheels to power is always going to be better than only 2 wheels.
Reason I brought it up was to avoid more of the arguments that say AWD is overrated and unnecessary. Ii saw good evidence that RWD on modern vehicles with traction features can be surprisingly competent. Competent, not equal to or superior.
I've never driven a RWD with traction control features, so I can't comment from personal experience. I have lots of experience in RWD cars that lack those features, and with a modern AWD car. Traction isn't even close between those. The RWD is fun to drift around in when conditions and surroundings permit, but it is not fun when precision is required.
Its good that you agree. Historically or with modern technology the different between RWD and AWD is night and day. An argument could be had around this topic between winter tires and all seasons but after more recent experience I've had with winter tires I'm also starting to believe that this comparison is also night and day. Driving with confidence sure is nice.
If you are on ICE, it DOES NOT matter if you got AWD or RWD or FWD (Ok, maybe 6WD with chains/studded tires then you are ok).
My point is a couple of months ago I was driving my RWD RCF on the interstate in the southern MS driving to northern MSMS whe there was "snow" believe it or not! MS is not equipped for any snow conditions at all. No salt shakers and not plowers to clear the roads at all. So the snow just get compacted with each vehicle going over and over and became ice. I saw many 4WD pickups, SUVs, Jeeps, AWD Audi's, BMW, 4MATIC MB's, many Toyota 4Runners 4WD, and even semi-trucks with trailers going into the median/shoulder off road and get stuck. I could only go something like 20 mph safely until after about a couple of hours of it I devdeci to just pull into a truck stop and wait for next morning to have the sun thaw everything out!!!
I did see an AMG MB G Wagen pulling another pickup truck out of the median though. I guess the MB G Wagen deserves its reputation for it's ruggedness and the ability to go ANYWHERE!
So if you hit ice, ALL BETS ARE OFF. BETTER TO STAY HOME OR STAY PUT.
Originally Posted by scooky
Howdy, relatively new to forum, still waiting for my new ride to arrive. In the mean time I've been binging on the forums. :-) Thanks to everyone for the info they have shared, very valuable to me.
I've read a lot of the forum in the past few weeks. I decided on the AWD, but honestly I think it may be the only model they sell in the pacific northwest.
I did however enjoy reading and researching some of the comments from people that say AWD is not necessary and RWD is essentially just as good in most cases, and better in others.. I was surprised by this initially, but glad I dug into it.
I think there are some strong arguments that RWD is technically a strong option. However, I have come up with 2 variables that I haven't heard people bring up yet wrt the RWD in northern climates, or maybe just the pacific northwest. I thought I'd share those thoughts.
State laws and DOT guidelines:
I'm surrounded by mountain passes. West = Ocean. Every other direction means mountain passes before too long.
There are 4 stages of winter pass traction advisories in our area.
This is where the RWD vs AWD argument makes a big difference to me. It's not about what the car is capable of. I'm convicted RWD can do a great job. It's about the laws that are enforced somewhat aggressively in some areas.
The RC AWD with winter tires (M+S or 3 Peak Snowflake) is good to go in advisories 1-3 (most common). And fwiw: I'm not taking my RC into the mountains in the rare occasion that they raise to advisory 4. So the AWD with winter tires has me covered. Technically I'm required by law to carry 1 axle worth of chains in the car, just in case. However, I don't imagine I'd ever mount them. I'd turn around if things were that bad. If I had to though, the manual says I'm allowed to.
The RC RWD is a different story in 2 significant ways. One more relevant than the other.
RWD OEM staggered wheel configuration has NO winter tire options available that I'm aware of (tirerack).
This would require someone to buy a second set or wheels, in a different, likely not staggered, configuration, just to get tires that would mount on the wheels. This is the less important issue as it can be worked around with new wheels, but it forces your hand.
Even then, with the best winter/snow tires you can buy, you are required to mount chains when the advisory says Chains Required (except AWD with winter traction).
Manual is more restrictive of conditions where you are allowed to mount chains on the RWD. It's a no go if you have the 4 wheel steering and 265 tires. You probably wouldn't be running 265's at that point because you would have gotten new wheels that had winter rubber for them, but it is still more restrictive. On the RC,
I'd prefer to avoid mounting chains if at all possible. Inconvenience, cost of carrying 2 axles worth of chains, risk of car damage due to low clearance, or chain coming loose. This is a big difference between the AWD and RWD in my region.
I totally get that these considerations may be irrelevant to people in different regions than I'm in. I just wanted to bring them up as I hadn't seen them represented yet, and they might be valid considerations for some people in specific regions. I'd love to have that 8 speed tranny, with the fun of a rear wheel vehicle. In my region the AWD just makes more sense "to me".
If the roads are icy, my preference will be to stay home/put as you suggest. For lots of reasons, including other people sliding into me.
However, I also like to be prepared for unpredictable conditions. I run Winter Performance tires (not snow tires) and Summer performance tires in the appropriate seasons. The RC is the first vehicle I've done this with fwiw.
The winter performance tires are actually somewhat competent on ice. Certainly not great, or as good as snow tires, but competent. The winter performance tires will stick better accelerating, stopping, and maneuvering than all season, or summer performance tires which are useless.
It's about the rubber and design.
I can run these tires because the AWD wheel fitment has winter tire support. The RWD staggered wheels do not.
So, the AWD is capable of dramatically outperforming the RWD version in maneuvering and stopping. Not necessarily because it is AWD, but because there are winter tire options for the AWD wheel fitment.
Someone could definitely put different wheels on their RWD where those wheels have winter tire options. There aren't any rules saying you can't. If you are into different tires for different seasons, you may be investing in new wheels anyways. That would even things out again.
Assuming same rubber in limited traction scenarios:
The AWD would accelerate better.
Maneuvering: From what I've read, there is zero difference
Stopping I expect there would be zero difference.
Actually I'd like to refine that AWD is heavier than RWD math I did earlier.
Technically it is correct that AWD is heavier than RWD by 3.8%. (148 lbs) before options.
However RWD has some options that add non-trivial weight.
Torque vectoring differential +70 lbs
Dynamic handling system (4 wheel steering) +?? lbs.
I don't know what % of RWD vehicles with one or both of these RWD Only options. Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of RWD models are HEAVIER than the AWD model. Not lighter.
Or at least so close as to make the difference imperceptible in road conditions.
4 Wheel steering might help maneuverability in poor traction.
Probably doesn't do anything with acceleration and breaking.
BTW, I did change all my tires on my RCF just a month prior to the winter season to Michelin Pilot Sport AS tires. Even with this set up, it was scary.
I've had the Bridgestone winter Blizzak tires (I think that was what's called) a long time ago with my RWD Volvo 960 4DR sedan. It was a heavy car. Even with this setup I was having difficulty and was scary for me too.
So on ice, forget it unless you wana be an ice road trucker!!!
Soft snow, most of the time you are ok with all season tires. Better with winter (Blizzak) or similar or studded or chains.
Originally Posted by scooky
If the roads are icy, my preference will be to stay home/put as you suggest. For lots of reasons, including other people sliding into me.
However, I also like to be prepared for unpredictable conditions. I run Winter Performance tires (not snow tires) and Summer performance tires in the appropriate seasons. The RC is the first vehicle I've done this with fwiw.
The winter performance tires are actually somewhat competent on ice. Certainly not great, or as good as snow tires, but competent. The winter performance tires will stick better accelerating, stopping, and maneuvering than all season, or summer performance tires which are useless.
It's about the rubber and design.
I can run these tires because the AWD wheel fitment has winter tire support. The RWD staggered wheels do not.
So, the AWD is capable of dramatically outperforming the RWD version in maneuvering and stopping. Not necessarily because it is AWD, but because there are winter tire options for the AWD wheel fitment.
Someone could definitely put different wheels on their RWD where those wheels have winter tire options. There aren't any rules saying you can't. If you are into different tires for different seasons, you may be investing in new wheels anyways. That would even things out again.
Assuming same rubber in limited traction scenarios:
The AWD would accelerate better.
Maneuvering: From what I've read, there is zero difference
Stopping I expect there would be zero difference.
Ice, sleet, & freezing rain are the equalizers. Everyone should stay off the roads in these conditions. Snow is different with different atmospheric conditions. Humidity, outside temp, and of course amount matters. If the snow is higher than the bumper then you are plowing. One can drive in higher amounts of snow if it is very cold as the snow skirts away from a rolling tire and the ground contact is better. However, high moisture content snow tends to cake the tire treads which at times cannot be released from the rolling tire. 4WD with snow tires will get the vehicle moving forward better than any other setup. Braking with any setup is very poor as it is a basically a static wheel with snow filling in the treads. Even with Anti-locking brakes.
I daily drove this for 5 years through NY winters. I put 92k miles on that car. Lots of going up and down hills. Lot of hill starts. The Mustang had a Torsen differential, which was key in getting the car moving in the snow.
I now drive a Subaru. I'm still going to invest in snow tires, but I had had enough of worrying about whether or not traffic is going to force me to stop on a hill. It's doable, but a right pain in the *** if you live in a hilly area like I do.
That having been said, with the studded Nokians, the car was a ton of fun in the snow. People would look at me in horror as I passed them (leaving a wide berth) on a snow blanketed 3-lane interstate, often sideways. I believe this is the first year that the F-Sport come with a limited slip differential. This is an absolute must if you're going to be driving 2wd in the snow.
I've had 4 Lexus cars, and a few Audi front wheel drive cars (5000) and a Jeep Wrangler (which I bought as a second car because my SC400 would not go anywhere in the snow). I don't know what you have been reading, but a rear wheel drive car will never do as well in snow as an AWD car, even with winter tires. I have not had a lot of experience in mountain passes in the winter, but there is no way I would take a rear wheel drive car on that road.
(This message sent from Ohio, which does not have mountains, but we do have some hills.)
Skilled drivers do well with RWD with LSD and snow tires in the winter. But if it is the case of open differential RWD ....
Also even AWD has different power distribution ratio between front and rear. I prefer rear wheel biased AWD vehicle.
I live in the foothills of Rockies at 1040 meter above sea level. Any road towards West is higher elevation.
If you're in a cold climate with frequent precipitation, the AWD RC just makes sense as a daily driver. The car handles fairly well in the snow and ice -- and -- is very predictable and sure footed with a good set of winter tires. Aside from the tad bit of extra weight, the square wheel set up and lack of some goodies available only in the RWD version -- my only major gripe is the AWD has this hideous early mid 90's Celica wheel gap up front. You can literally fist it. If you're getting the AWD, lower the car -- it looks great even with something reasonable like Tanabe's setup.
Here's my AWD in an unexpected wine-country-side snow storm in a place with awfully treacherous roads...
03-23-18, 07:24 AM
