Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

For low boost, sure. And a number of folks have done it.

But not matter what tuning you've got access to you're not going to run 15 psi on pump gasoline with 12:1 compression/stock internals.

You can mitigate somewhat with race gas, or meth injection, or converting to run E85, but those get further and further away from the mythical bolt-on kit folks want.

Except you can't, because HKS350 already explained that doesn't deliver enough fuel for much above 7 psi.

(not to mention you'd run into the same carbon problems the 250 has if you ditched the port injectors entirely)


Lobuxracer ran the math a while ago...lf you know static compression and some other, known, items, you can figure pretty solidly things like effective cylinder pressures. I'm sure a search will turn it up, but it suggested a limit right around 7-8 psi. Which is about as high as anyone has managed coincidentally.

As mentioned the one guy on my.is who claimed he was going to try to run 10 psi blew the motor up. (he could be lying of course, but why?)

mikellucci

iTrader: (56)

I've just grown tired of hearing the you have a 250, buy a 350, you have a 350, buy an F. If everyone across platforms lived by that mentality whats the point of having a car hobby? I had a civic si and no one told me to buy an RSX-S when I blew their doors off with my turbo setup. You have an IS300...oh, just buy a Supra... Really? The point is this isnt even a valid statement or argument that should be mentioned in the FEW scarce performance threads that exist on the 2nd gen forums. The knowledge in this forum section has yet to be discovered because every single "performance" thread turns into a HP per $ discussion or a marketing 101 trade. I guess thats just the way it is and will likely never change. Oh well..

Any way, I see very few technical threads that provide any real data around forced induction numbers much less DIY'ers. Just about anyone can slap a $6000 "kit" on their car or drop their car off a shop and pick it up a week later. No offense, but that seems to be the majority of this section with the exception of 5 or 6 people. Wheres all the DIY'ers that are ready to start purchasing parts and providing feedback? I have loads of information from playing around with 5-7psi but I'm unable to take the next step at this point in time for personal reasons...I just dont have time, my family comes first and this time of year is crazy. I will say that my project will be revisited and I will see what this motor is capable of within reason. For now, all I have to offer is my real world experience with 7psi and the parts needed to sustain that outside of an HKS S/C setup.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Except that those are all different cars... not the same car with a larger engine like you can get with the 2IS.

Further, those are all cars that are (relatively) easy to modify for more power...again unlike the 2IS.


It makes literally no sense to spend $6000 on a supercharger for an IS250 to have it make 250 hp when for $4500 you could instead have bought an IS350 which is the same car but with an engine that produces 306 hp. (and has a bit larger brakes)

Likewise dropping $25000 to do the motec setup and forged pistons and whatnot to a 350 makes little sense when it's like 10k more for an IS-F.


Back when I was a B-body guy, folks would come in occasionally who had the 4.3L V-8 in their cars and ask about mods... almost universally they were told unless they were looking for pretty small gains they should just go ahead and swap to a 5.7L (the larger engine that came in the car). Because stock it made more power than they'd make with all available reasonable mods on their 4.3L, and for less money. Same deal here. So it's not unique to the 2IS even.



But it is a valid point. A basic point of math even. Hence why folks who ask about boosting the 250 in the US get told to buy a 350.



Not really, no.


This isn't the early days of theoretical physics where the basic principles are so unknown that someone will make an AMAZING breakthrough where magically you can run 20 psi on 93 octane at 12:1 compression and cast pistons.

The basic concepts for forced induction are pretty well known.

The 2IS specific challenges aren't not getting solved because people point them out. They're not getting solved because there's no good/practical solution for them.

Go invent a standlone equivalent to the Motec for $500, then you'd get somewhere.

Hashing over stuff in here isn't going to get you that. (nothing is, because otherwise there'd be some great company out there stealing all of Motecs business)



All the folks I've seen... well, most anyway, and I 100% include you in this, who have done their own setups have been more than willing to share information with others wanting to do their own.

There's just few that do... for exactly the reason the hp per $ math is so poor.


But all that information, with the exception of the F-con and MAPECU3 setups, is largely the same information, at a basic level, that we had 5 years ago.... and thusfar all those 'new' setups get you is fixing A/F and tuning to make 7 psi safe versus 5-6.

Because again, there's no magic wand to suddenly ignore the laws of physics and get high, cheap, reliable boost on this platform.


Correct me if I'm wrong though- but I thought you were not reliably running 7 psi without the HKS setup?

Last I saw in your thread at 7 psi you were, as other have, seeing somewhat unnerving A/F ratios and had dropped back to 5.5 psi, more like all the kit vehicles were running?

If you've gotten 7 to work with good A/F all the time on the stock ECU that'd be great info to share.

mikellucci

iTrader: (56)

Kurtz, I agree with everything you said to an extent... I guess I just see you as taking some of the fun out of it...Because the writing is on the wall and we are so limited with this motor everyone just restates the obvious instead of encouraging new ideas or changes.

Also, I guess its my "hope" that more people start toying with these cars as the price comes down. I did a quick search and theres some high mile is350s listed for $15k....thats pretty cheap and takes away the +$10k to get into an ISF.

Yeah, I "think" I can get 7psi to be unnerving but havent had the chance to give my idea a try. Its 5.5 for now

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Hey, I understand the reality of modding this platform can seem depressing... it is. But it's still the reality.

I'd love someone to come along and announce "Hey, I just figured out some brilliant McGuyver way to build a control box out of $9 in radio shack parts that uses the port injectors to fix the fueling problems and doesn't screw up anything with the stock ECU!"

But nobody has.

For that matter we've heard folks every few months say they're gonna go order custom LC pistons to fix the compression ratio problem and run lots of boost!

But nobody has.

One of my best friends makes his living doing mod work, including a lot with turbos, on supras and older Lexus vehicles. He's looked at the 2IS platform a number of times, at one point I was even posting here looking for someone to volunteer their car for some test fitting stuff....every 'new idea' he's had ran right into an eventual roadblock he couldn't get past.

And not to say nobody will, but a lot of pretty smart guys have looked at this platform and walked away shaking their heads. A lot more have actually done work on it without getting beyond the 5-7 psi limit we've been looking at since the car was about new.


The "innovation" I expect at some point will be someone figuring a way to make, say, a stock supercharger from a factory vehicle, which you can usually get cheap, to work on a 2IS... so that there'll be a 5 psi IS350 kit for say 2500 bucks... I think that'd sell decently.

I don't think you'll ever see something like a 15 psi kit for 6k as mentioned earlier though.

Not every car can have a ton of power added for cheap (and Toyota after the Supra has worked harder over the years to intentionally make their cars more difficult to do so on, so that doesn't help either).

HKS350

iTrader: (4)

Alittle input for HKS350..........

The main factors that are holding me up currently.

1) Fueling the 2GR-FSE.
(OPTION1) - Motec and duel intank pumps. Control the stock DI injectors to 90% and upgrade the port injectors to 1000cc etc.... Problem solved!
(OPTION2) - Drop the DI injectors and run my current HKS-Fcon iS only on 6 Port injectors. Only ONE 1 major issue with doing this is the combustion chamber, piston, intake runner design. These are all designed to work with the fueling and cooling for the DI injectors. PERIOD!

IF you just remove the DI injectors alone even on a STOCK motor you with blow a hole in the piston within 10 miles. The DI injector is the KEY to this!

2) Piston design...
I know piston are cheap. Ive been quoated @ $1100-1400 for everything needed to support 600+hp.
The head design is the one question that NOBODY can predict yet.

HOW WILL THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER FLOW WITH LOW PSI PISTIONS??????? For that matter what about cam timing and overlap. That needs to change too.
WILL YOU GET PISTON COOLING FROM THE DI INJECTOR????

Most likely the DI injector will have to be redesined to properly cool the low compression piston. Who/what company does that? Ive looked, who?

The issue isn't making the power I don't think. If you force fuel and air into any small space then it will make power, the issue is why not just swap in a LS7 motor or 2JZ that doesn't need the redesign or R&D to make 600+hp.

I'm a 2JZ fanboy bigtime! I'd throw a 2JZ in anything -- Smart car --- IS350 -- Honda Accord(LOLZZZ)

But you know what makes that motor so great...........................ITS STRONG and DUMB! Kinda like an OX.

The 2GR-FSE is not DUMB. Its kinda like a women. Classy, clean, sexy. How do you take a women like that and make here a body builder? Or would you want to?

Soooo I'd rather deal with retitling my car as custom. Then I can just do a custom gauges on an LCD screen that give me all the engine's data (HKS FCON / Motec only)

IMO the 2IS gauge cluster fails compaired to the IS300.... looks wise.

AIRBAGS - who needs them, just where a HANNS device everywhere.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO ask yourself, how far am I (you) willing to go into the build?

I like the "all out" crowd. I mean I'm kinda already there.

The way I see it is I'd have my IS350 or a Supra right now. Both will cost me 60K$$$ to reach 900+hp daily.

So who has the 60K and will step up?

I think the cars worth it!

I will personally be there with the car within the next 4-5 years. If I keep it that long.

But there won't be any DYI Kits.................

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Well, I do think the guy who does a working 2JZ swap and actually documents it will be very popular.

I've said before I think such a guy could probably make a few bucks offering a plug and play harness for the swap (and maybe some custom mounting hw and directions)

Would at least compensate him a bit for the hundreds of hours the swap would take to figure out (time based on the one guy who did one, and does engine swaps for a living on toyotas so not like he was a newbie, but didn't document any of it)



I suspect he'd get VERY popular with folks in states who don't have to pass inspections.... doubly so with IS250 owners who end up with carbon buildup and/or oil consumption issues well out of warranty...

clubfoot

Since I've been around a long time and have seen my share of posts, I remembered a company called mhp that claimed to have cracked the IS350 ECU and were able to reprogram the ecu and transmission if you sent your ecu to them,....a quick mhp search of the forums found this:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/clu...-for-is-f.html

There is also the initial thread for the IS350,...but I'll let you guys find it and do some reading I can't remember if anyone at the time actually sent their ecu in,....may be one member. Of course the pricing will pop your eyes,...and start a who new thread on it's merits.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

I think one or two IS-F guys did theirs, and it was largely found to be vaporware.

Like, one guy got some dyno results, then nobody else saw real gains.

and MHPs account stopped posted shortly after that and they ceased to be a CL sponsor

Supposedly it's not the first time they'd done such (there was some similar cries of fraud from their work with Mercedes) and that's mentioned in a couple threads.

I probably should've included them on my list of big promises never fulfilled


Here's the big 54 page thread if you wanna sift through the whole thing-

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...akdown-54.html

clubfoot

With all this turbo/supercharging talk, has anyone looked into transplanting the V6 from the RAV4 ( which uses regular gas BTW) into an IS and blowing it? it starts off with 269hp@246tq, if it fits, it would be a much better starting point?

clubfoot

Naw,...like you I've read so much vapour ware on these forums it's a running joke now

To boost the IS will require a complete engine swap or parts swaps I think, the head, pistons and DI are show stoppers.

heyarms

iTrader: (5)

Lots of good reads in this thread as always. Just makes me daydream how awesome itd be if my car could be easily boosted for significant gains... Here's to hoping the 3IS has more potential (although it doesnt sound likely)!

MRxSLAYx

The facts dont vary for any application. Whatever you consider low boost and high boost really doesn't come into play.

What doesn't deliver enough fuel? The stock injectors?

The fuel system is something that can easily be enhanced. Here take a look at this...

The system runs 8 Direct Injection injectors...


A "Suggested" limit is noting but a suggestion. If mathematical suggestion were fact I highly doubt my car would be running nearly double its stock HP on a stock block. One thing we muct remember is that nobody(to my knowledge) has properly done the research and development to turn this motor into a powerhouse. Until someone has, its basically pointless to say that things cannot be done. It took years for the 2jz to become a legend, I wouldn't rush things.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Right.

Meaning you're not gonna run 15 psi on stock compression and internals on pump gas.

Because the facts don't vary for application, 12:1 is 12:1 and at 15psi that's cylinder pressures well in excess of what'll blow the engine up on 93 octane.

Not sure what your point was there?

Yup. Nowhere near enough fuel for 15psi. And nobody makes an aftermarket DI injector that fits the 2GR-FSE heads

(prob need a pump upgrade if they did, but that's trivial compared to other issues)



Good for that system. The IS350 has 12 injectors BTW- as mentioned the only standalone that'll run that is $14,000 total.



It's not a suggested limit it's a physical one.


If an engineer told you the bridge he was designed could not handle vehicles over 10,000 lbs because he'd run the math would you scoff and tell him that's only a suggestion?

By all means do so as long as you're the first one over the bridge in a heavier truck.

FWIW though, as mentioned, the one guy who claims he actually tried higher boost said he blew the motor up as soon as he went past that 7-8 psi limit... so unless he's lying (and why would he about that?) we do know it's a real limit on the stock motor on pump gas.


Why?

2JZs do that in their sleep. Folks have put down -triple- their stock power on stock internals with a 2JZ.

But the 2GR-FSE is not a 2JZ.

Differences matter in stuff like that. Much higher compression, very complex cylinder head design (and DI interaction), much more limited ECU options, thin cylinder liners in an AL block, and on and on.

I think I see your confusion.

many people... including both people and companies that boost cars for a living... have done research on this.

Generally they reach the same conclusion- there's no reasonable way to go much past 7 psi on the car without changing a lot of stuff and generally spending considerably more than an IS-F costs, which with basic bolt ons would put out pretty near what a 15 psi IS350 would with a much stronger and better transmission behind it.


Again, the problem really is not that nobody has tried.

Lots of people have. TOMs, HKS, LMS, and quite a few very bright folks on here who have boosted the hell out of many other cars.

And all keep coming up with roughly the same results.



I can't figure out why people keep messing this up.

Assuming that "it" is running double-digit boost then nobody has said it can't be done.

But everyone (who has looked into it) has said it can't be done for any reasonable cost.

Folks have already suggested ways it MIGHT be possible if you've got $25,000 to spend on it (Motec with all the parts, LC pistons, upgraded fuel pumps, plus the actual custom designed turbo kit

(and you get incredibly lucky with your engineering guesses on the pistons, since Lobux, HKS, and others have pointed out the numerous ways in which just throwing in LC pistons is likely to kinda not work well)

They've often given pretty detailed technical reasons why... (see several recent HKS350 posts for example).

So folks who wander in and go "Well you haven't done it so you don't know!" (when they haven't done half what the guy speaking in the first place has on the platform) sound... ill informed.

But it's crazy to drop 25k hoping it'll work when for half that you can upgrade to a known faster version of the same car with a better transmission that's dead reliable... or for a similar half-that amount (or 1/4 that amount if you consider your own time free and have the knowledge) on doing a 2JZ-GTE swap.





A legend perhaps... but not pretty solidly boosted.

Certainly not 7 years... which is about how long the 2IS has been out now.

Keep in mind 7 years into the existence of the Mk4 Supra cars were already running 500-600 hp.. about 100% more than stock.

7 years into the 2IS lifespan the most boosted cars out there are running about 25% over stock hp.

Again, different platform, extremely different results.

(and the "just wait a couple years!" meme for significant 2IS boost has been going on since at least 2006.... every single person has been wrong so far- for a reason (well, several reasons, most of which have been mentioned repeatedly).


But really, as I tell everyone who keeps insisting everyone who knows what they're talking about is wrong....

Prove otherwise. I'll be first in line to apologize to you and shake your hand about it.

It's been 7 years of telling folks that and nobody has. Good luck to you in doing so.

MRxSLAYx

I did not mention pump gas, but if your going to bring that up, its as simple as saying that the tuner can tune to whatever the motor can handle. Nobody knows exactly what the stock internals can handle.

I was talking about 6 injectors, and I still am. It doesn't matter if "nobody" currently makes the proper injectors... We live in america, it can be made.
BTW- This motor comes with 16 injectors, but is currently running a modified 8 injector setup.




The 2GR is definitely not a 2JZ, but the 2JZ was not the legend it is for years and years. By what your saying, it took tuners 10 years to run the mathematical calculations that Lobux did in a few hours. We have local shops that run stock 2JZ-GTE motors in the 900whp range that have lasted years. Now im not an engineer by major, but im 99% sure that any engineer would say thats impossible back in 1992....

I agree with you on this, but I wouldn't say im confused about it. I agree that is completely not economical, but thats completely opposite from what I've been talking about.

Im pretty much going to stop replying to your post here as I feel that we are not on the same page and debating the same thing.

This is pretty much what im saying and it is fact: the 2GR-FSE(is350) and the 2UR-GSE(ISF) are very similar in design. Everything that you are saying cannot be done with the 2GR, has been done with the 2UR. Though you are correct in arguing that the process will not be economical with the 2GR, that is entirely not what im debating. Furthermore, I feel your completely wrong with stating that a "suggestion" is the concrete limit to a motor. The logic doesn't hold water for the stock block 2JZ-GTE that can make 1000hp all day, or my stock 2GR that makes 725hp+ with nearly 80k miles on the motor. I could be wrong, but I really doubt it.