Performance Gains: Real, Imagined, Exaggerated
10-22-10, 11:00 AM
#1
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Performance Gains: Real, Imagined, Exaggerated
When we install a "performance part" we HOPE that our cars will be faster and more fun to drive. We generally expect a certain gain based on manufacturer claims or reports from other users. More and more this is based on a "dyno" chart that "proves" the claims.
Dyno charts are useful IF we understand just what is being presented AND IF the chart is authentic and not manipulated. That said there is a great deal MORE to performance gains that are not captured in a dyno chart.
Since I have more than a little experience with exhaust modifications I will start there but this discussion can apply to ANY modification such as cold air induction or torque converters or tuning solutions and more.
Dyno readings vary from run to run and from day to day and from dyno to dyno. True engine power varies in the above and between two cars of the same make. Two identical GS400s will dyno differently or better put will PERFORM differently based on MANY variables. Comparing two cars with modifications becomes even more confusing.
I am trying to find ways to better MEASURE the actual and real gains (or losses) for any given modification(s).
Some people here may have some racing experience. Often when two similar performing cars race each other one car will be faster at certain points and slower at other points. You can actually see the other car gaining and then that gain stops and you start pulling. At the end of the race both are close but the way they got there is different. This shows that one car has more power/torque/response at low RPM and the other at higher RPM.
On the street the above can be FELT as a car with good low end pull, response, power, crispness, etc. This is more fun to drive than a car with a dull and soft low end response but has decent higher RPM power. The goal of course is to get BOTH.
Dyno charts are useful IF we understand just what is being presented AND IF the chart is authentic and not manipulated. That said there is a great deal MORE to performance gains that are not captured in a dyno chart.
Since I have more than a little experience with exhaust modifications I will start there but this discussion can apply to ANY modification such as cold air induction or torque converters or tuning solutions and more.
Dyno readings vary from run to run and from day to day and from dyno to dyno. True engine power varies in the above and between two cars of the same make. Two identical GS400s will dyno differently or better put will PERFORM differently based on MANY variables. Comparing two cars with modifications becomes even more confusing.
I am trying to find ways to better MEASURE the actual and real gains (or losses) for any given modification(s).
Some people here may have some racing experience. Often when two similar performing cars race each other one car will be faster at certain points and slower at other points. You can actually see the other car gaining and then that gain stops and you start pulling. At the end of the race both are close but the way they got there is different. This shows that one car has more power/torque/response at low RPM and the other at higher RPM.
On the street the above can be FELT as a car with good low end pull, response, power, crispness, etc. This is more fun to drive than a car with a dull and soft low end response but has decent higher RPM power. The goal of course is to get BOTH.
10-22-10, 11:19 AM
#2
I agree with the above J! If you look through some of my old threads you will see dyno's taken at different times with different mods. IIRC the addition of the Apexi Neo (to my car that only had intake, exhaust and TM spark plugs) air/fuel controller showed gains of around 15whp and around 17wtq...and I felt it generally throughout the entire powerband. I think I have another dyno even after that one with the addition of the headers and a re-tune of the Apexi Neo; again gaining around another 15whp or so and around 19wtq. The headers IMHO were felt more low-end and mid-range of the powerband. As we all know, in general, intakes are mainly felt in the mid to hi-range of the powerband...same goes for exhaust (if you can feel it). lol
10-22-10, 11:55 AM
#3
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Mr Brady,
I agree with what you are saying......Ive been modding cars for quite a while now but have always wondered how much power is actually being released from the mods, so for the first time Im going to document and dyno the mods that I'm currently in the middle of putting together on my 430. I probably wouldnt be in a position to do this if it werent for having a friend at http://powerprosdyno.com/ to hook it up on a Dyno Jet.
If there aren't more delays I should be doing dyno run tonight to get a stock reading and will hopefully be getting my exhaust installed next weekend.
I decided not to go with the SRT Intake for $500-600 and be stuck with a "one size fits all" setting and thought I should get an A/F controller and Injen Intake for about the same price and have the option to adjust the A/F.
Heres what I plan to do:
1. Dyno stock
2. Dyno w/ Injen Short Ram Intake
3. Dyno w/ Short Ram and 2.5 mandral bent custom piping with a xpipe & 2 cats
4. Dyno w/ Short Ram, 2.5 Exhaust and PPE headers.
5. Dyno w/ Short Ram, 2.5 Exhaust, PPE Headers and A/F Controller.
My goal is to get real numbers for all of these mods and end all speculation and prove if the mods are worth the money and power. Of course I have to wait for the headers to drop before I get that far, but as soon as they do I will be ready to install and test. I already have the intake and exhaust ready to go; the only thing I'm waiting for is to get a stock reading first so I can install the mods which Im very eager to do.
Maybe after I get the dyno sheets you can help me disect what the graph is really trying to say. The downfall is we can only test from 4000rpm to 61XX - is there no other way to manipulate this to get a wider reading due to the shift at WOT?
Any input or advice is appreciated.
I agree with what you are saying......Ive been modding cars for quite a while now but have always wondered how much power is actually being released from the mods, so for the first time Im going to document and dyno the mods that I'm currently in the middle of putting together on my 430. I probably wouldnt be in a position to do this if it werent for having a friend at http://powerprosdyno.com/ to hook it up on a Dyno Jet.
If there aren't more delays I should be doing dyno run tonight to get a stock reading and will hopefully be getting my exhaust installed next weekend.
I decided not to go with the SRT Intake for $500-600 and be stuck with a "one size fits all" setting and thought I should get an A/F controller and Injen Intake for about the same price and have the option to adjust the A/F.
Heres what I plan to do:
1. Dyno stock
2. Dyno w/ Injen Short Ram Intake
3. Dyno w/ Short Ram and 2.5 mandral bent custom piping with a xpipe & 2 cats
4. Dyno w/ Short Ram, 2.5 Exhaust and PPE headers.
5. Dyno w/ Short Ram, 2.5 Exhaust, PPE Headers and A/F Controller.
My goal is to get real numbers for all of these mods and end all speculation and prove if the mods are worth the money and power. Of course I have to wait for the headers to drop before I get that far, but as soon as they do I will be ready to install and test. I already have the intake and exhaust ready to go; the only thing I'm waiting for is to get a stock reading first so I can install the mods which Im very eager to do.
Maybe after I get the dyno sheets you can help me disect what the graph is really trying to say. The downfall is we can only test from 4000rpm to 61XX - is there no other way to manipulate this to get a wider reading due to the shift at WOT?
Any input or advice is appreciated.
10-22-10, 09:09 PM
#4
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
I have posted before but it makes sense to repeat here.
Following the first S&S install, as GS400, I donated a 2.25-to-2.50 racing merge style Y pipe. The owner had a 2.25" dual into the Y pipe built. The car was dyno'd with the stock and the merge collector Y system. On the dyno the new system gained ONE whp. But in driving the response and low RPM power was noticeably reduced. It felt "mushy". This is one of the many reasons that I recommend the stock Y pipe.
This same owner had the opportunity to dyno with a GS430 Y pipe which has the third center cat. NO CHANGE in power and both stock systems were equal in performance and feel but the 2.25 system was way down on response and power for the normal day to day driving.
This is a very good example of how a dyno does NOT tell the whole story.
The only way to get a full RPM range on a dyno is to do it in first gear. This causes the RWTorque to go WAY up and the time under dyno to be very short. Very rarely is this done.
Another way is to use a GTech especially the ones that allow downloading for full comparisons. This can show variances in actual G-force as well as the time between all the speed ranges. This is a better way but requires a trained eye and the effort to look very closely.
The other way is to DRIVE with extreme attention noticing the way the engine responds in many different conditions and then doing an UNBIASED review of all changes. On an exhaust or intake that increases engine sound this becomes harder as emotionally the sound makes us THINK there is more power.
Following the first S&S install, as GS400, I donated a 2.25-to-2.50 racing merge style Y pipe. The owner had a 2.25" dual into the Y pipe built. The car was dyno'd with the stock and the merge collector Y system. On the dyno the new system gained ONE whp. But in driving the response and low RPM power was noticeably reduced. It felt "mushy". This is one of the many reasons that I recommend the stock Y pipe.
This same owner had the opportunity to dyno with a GS430 Y pipe which has the third center cat. NO CHANGE in power and both stock systems were equal in performance and feel but the 2.25 system was way down on response and power for the normal day to day driving.
This is a very good example of how a dyno does NOT tell the whole story.
The only way to get a full RPM range on a dyno is to do it in first gear. This causes the RWTorque to go WAY up and the time under dyno to be very short. Very rarely is this done.
Another way is to use a GTech especially the ones that allow downloading for full comparisons. This can show variances in actual G-force as well as the time between all the speed ranges. This is a better way but requires a trained eye and the effort to look very closely.
The other way is to DRIVE with extreme attention noticing the way the engine responds in many different conditions and then doing an UNBIASED review of all changes. On an exhaust or intake that increases engine sound this becomes harder as emotionally the sound makes us THINK there is more power.
12-15-11, 02:45 PM
#5
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JBrady, you are the man. I think all of your posts are thoughtful, respectful, and well worded.
First off, let me say that the 2012 Camry V6 apparently traps at 97mph-100mph stock.... WTF. That is crazy. That is the bar against which I judge all cars.
I am a new 2002 GS430 owner. My previous experience is all Honda/Acura and Chevrolet and I have modified every car I have owned. To me, the biggest "no-compromise" mods always seem to be:
- Headers
- Intake
- Billet Aluminum Pulley's/Accessories
I have driven the car 100% stock since I bought it a few months ago and have made many many observations.
Personally, the one mod that this car seems to need the most is the torque converter mod (I think Precision Industries, Dragon TC). This transmission shifts in such a manner, that to me at least, any gains you make on the power front are lost during shift times. In fact, I almost think the GS "feels" faster if you use the gas pedal to shift prior to redline (say @ 5,000 rpm versus actual redline shift @ 6,000rpm) or so.
A 3.76 LSD would likely help as well. However, I really enjoy the 3.26 gearing on the highway as @ 65mph, the car is sitting right at the start of its Torque peak and it just pulls nice and smoothly. I dont think the lower gearing (numerically higher) is worth the trade-off in elevated RPM's. I have run gearing as high as 4.11's on my other Chevy's and this is a legitimate method to decrease 1/4 times and enhance responsiveness. Personally, I think a quicker shifting transmission would be more enjoyable than the lower gearing. Both mods would feel pretty incredible I would think. Does anyone have these 2 mods as their ONLY mods?
At any rate, I will be installing the following mods very shortly, these will be my only power mods:
1. SRT Intake with SRT ECU
2. PPE Headers
All else stock. Stock exhaust from headers to mufflers.
I will report what the BUTT dyno says after I have driven 1,000 miles on the mods. I am expecting power increase across the board. If torque is lost below 3,000rpm (BUTT Dyno), I will undo the mods.
Overall, the GS430 is a special car. It has an aura of confidence and a quality to it that is hard to ignore.
My GS has about 80,000 miles and was a one-owner previous to me. It is black with tan interior, ML + Navi.
Looking forward to contributing to this great board.
First off, let me say that the 2012 Camry V6 apparently traps at 97mph-100mph stock.... WTF. That is crazy. That is the bar against which I judge all cars.
I am a new 2002 GS430 owner. My previous experience is all Honda/Acura and Chevrolet and I have modified every car I have owned. To me, the biggest "no-compromise" mods always seem to be:
- Headers
- Intake
- Billet Aluminum Pulley's/Accessories
I have driven the car 100% stock since I bought it a few months ago and have made many many observations.
Personally, the one mod that this car seems to need the most is the torque converter mod (I think Precision Industries, Dragon TC). This transmission shifts in such a manner, that to me at least, any gains you make on the power front are lost during shift times. In fact, I almost think the GS "feels" faster if you use the gas pedal to shift prior to redline (say @ 5,000 rpm versus actual redline shift @ 6,000rpm) or so.
A 3.76 LSD would likely help as well. However, I really enjoy the 3.26 gearing on the highway as @ 65mph, the car is sitting right at the start of its Torque peak and it just pulls nice and smoothly. I dont think the lower gearing (numerically higher) is worth the trade-off in elevated RPM's. I have run gearing as high as 4.11's on my other Chevy's and this is a legitimate method to decrease 1/4 times and enhance responsiveness. Personally, I think a quicker shifting transmission would be more enjoyable than the lower gearing. Both mods would feel pretty incredible I would think. Does anyone have these 2 mods as their ONLY mods?
At any rate, I will be installing the following mods very shortly, these will be my only power mods:
1. SRT Intake with SRT ECU
2. PPE Headers
All else stock. Stock exhaust from headers to mufflers.
I will report what the BUTT dyno says after I have driven 1,000 miles on the mods. I am expecting power increase across the board. If torque is lost below 3,000rpm (BUTT Dyno), I will undo the mods.
Overall, the GS430 is a special car. It has an aura of confidence and a quality to it that is hard to ignore.
My GS has about 80,000 miles and was a one-owner previous to me. It is black with tan interior, ML + Navi.
Looking forward to contributing to this great board.
12-17-11, 11:50 AM
#7
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Suspekt, thank you.
That a stock Camry can outrun so many previously considered "fast" cars... including MOST of the old 60's and 70's "muscle cars" is eye opening to say the least!
The improbable RAV4 with V6 is capable of high 13 second times!!!
The very similar DI engine in the IS350 makes that car quicker and faster than a showroom stock 1970 Hemi Cuda. The IS350 is rated at 306hp. This number comes after the re-rating of power for the 2006 model year. For comparision the 2005 LS430 was rated 290hp and the exact same engine with the exact same power output had the "revised" power of 278hp. For direct comparision you need to add apx 4% to the IS350 giving a comparable power of 318hp.
The Hemi Cuda was rated 425hp. Many claim the "real" power was "500 or more". Actually, dynojet testing has stock examples making in the low 300rwhp range.
Suspekt, you mention the "best" mod being a PI converter. Are you going to run one? I would also try the mods separately. Headers only, intake only, both together.
That a stock Camry can outrun so many previously considered "fast" cars... including MOST of the old 60's and 70's "muscle cars" is eye opening to say the least!
The improbable RAV4 with V6 is capable of high 13 second times!!!
The very similar DI engine in the IS350 makes that car quicker and faster than a showroom stock 1970 Hemi Cuda. The IS350 is rated at 306hp. This number comes after the re-rating of power for the 2006 model year. For comparision the 2005 LS430 was rated 290hp and the exact same engine with the exact same power output had the "revised" power of 278hp. For direct comparision you need to add apx 4% to the IS350 giving a comparable power of 318hp.
The Hemi Cuda was rated 425hp. Many claim the "real" power was "500 or more". Actually, dynojet testing has stock examples making in the low 300rwhp range.
Suspekt, you mention the "best" mod being a PI converter. Are you going to run one? I would also try the mods separately. Headers only, intake only, both together.
Trending Topics
12-19-11, 07:48 PM
#8
Here is a cheap tool to measure time and also grab statistics and get cel codes ,hp, 1/4 time, 0-60 time, ect...
Amazon bluetooth odbii sensor
and Torque from the droid app market.
just pair and you are golden. pairing pin # is 1234
Amazon bluetooth odbii sensor
and Torque from the droid app market.
just pair and you are golden. pairing pin # is 1234
Last edited by sam430; 12-19-11 at 08:00 PM.
12-19-11, 08:33 PM
#9
Here is a cheap tool to measure time and also grab statistics and get cel codes ,hp, 1/4 time, 0-60 time, ect...
Amazon bluetooth odbii sensor
and Torque from the droid app market.
just pair and you are golden. pairing pin # is 1234
Amazon bluetooth odbii sensor
and Torque from the droid app market.
just pair and you are golden. pairing pin # is 1234
DOWNLOAD LINK HERE
http://android-softwares.blogspot.co...-1522-apk.html
"Click Download"
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juanmedina
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