Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Not to bring back from the dead, but apparently at least two folks that make ECMs that do that now... the Motec 800 with ignition expander, and the Euro-12.

Course if you replace the factory ECU entirely you have the problem of making the rest of the car work properly.

SophieSleeps

Just for giggles and discussion:

I'm having a pissing match with someone on another forum about the ISX50.
He seems to think that the car is un-boostable by standard means. He claims that it's "so complicated" that even if the car is successfully boosted factory features and amenities will cease to work...that 12 ECU's talk to each other and every window has it's own flash memory blah blah blah. That a team of engineers from Falken attempted this and failed.

So my question/situation in simplistic form:

Say you take an ISX50:
1. Throw a standalone EMS at it with it's own independent sensors (Keep the factory ECU also)
2. Replace the fuel system with your own pump, lines, new injectors (assume for now you can find some that fit the rail)
3. Plug/remove/weld over the port injectors openings
4. Sleeve the block and throw in lower compression pistons (Artisan Tuning used JE pistons and Crower connecting rods)
5. Directly wire up injectors and plugs (bypassing the stock ecu)
6. Pick up stock sensors when needed (Crank and cams)
7. Plumb a turbo

Is there anything about this situation that will not work?
Will factory features (air conditioning, radio, windows, sunroof etc) still work after the standalone is wired up.

And just to see if we can have some fun here is the other thread:
http://my.is/forums/f156/doing-custo...6-is350-401775

Gernby

iTrader: (1)

There are about 10 different ECU's in the ISX50 that all communicate with each other via CAN bus. I don't think the windows would quit working if you went with a stand alone ECU for the engine, but the transmission and VDIM certainly wouldn't be happy. Even if you could get it to drive, you'd most certainly lose some factory functionality.

SophieSleeps

Could you think of what exactly would stop functioning?

I've done this on other cars and some of the things that are dependent upon throttle such as cruise control and traction control are lost. They can be simulated but really what's the point.

Gernby

iTrader: (1)

I could speculate about what would quit functioning, but the only way to know is to try it. I would expect anything on the CAN bus could quit working. For example, if the transmission ECU gets upset because the engine isn't talking to it via CAN, then it may quit communicating with the door lock ECU via CAN to tell it when the car is in gear (doors lock automatically if I remember correctly), so the door lock ECU might quit working. It may also be possible that the factory stereo and NAV system are on the CAN bus, since it could possibly benefit from knowing what the car is doing.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

The point would be for the original factory features, like cruise control and traction control (VDIM here which impacts steering, braking, throttle, and more) to work.

That was your question after all.

I've no doubt you could do what you want if you just want the engine to run, that's what falken did, nothing else worked though.

SophieSleeps

CAN is just a form of communication. Logic to disable or enable something is built into the ECU for interpreting signals sent via the CAN bus.

So to play devil's advocate: Are you saying that if a sensor on your transmission decides to break/provide false information/no information that there is a possibility of doors/windows and other features of the car to stop working simply because information is transferred via a CAN bus?

With Falken, they removed everything. Nothing was there to work as it was a drift car there would be no point in factory amenities.

With the same advocacy I provided above, if a sensor on a car fails will you lose your steering, braking, throttle etc? For those of you who have played with cars (many modern cars are already using some form of CAN communication) do you find that there are a ton of sensors that are totally disabling? Or do you find that sensors fail safe and generally only affect the system they are associated with.

Of the sensors that I find most disabling are MAF, TPS and sometimes 02.
When these are malfunctioning it affects fuel, timing, traction control.
However with a standalone it cannot affect fuel and timing, only traction.
With most cars if your 02 sensor is malfunctioning you can actually just unplug it. It will force the car into open loop for you to drive.

I agree with certain systems dependent on ecu or transmission input such as VDIM, perhaps ABS and likely cruise control. I will contend that most everything else will continue to work as normal...and that the consequences of boosting a car as mentioned above will simply be a bunch of CEL's, no VDIM, no cruise and maybe not ABS.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

It's all speculation without testing. I can say with great certainty you'll need to completely replace the key system. You won't get the OEM key to work with an aftermarket ECM at all.

I'd highly suggest you get a TIS account and do some reading before you make these claims. While it is true many things can be defective and the car will still operate, it does not mean some of the unrelated features will continue to work.

Oh, and one other small problem - CAN is documented, BEAN is not. BEAN is proprietary to Toyota and controls the windows, lighting, HVAC, and other systems. BEAN is not independent - it listens and talks to CAN. So you'll need to reverse engineer BEAN if you want the windows, lights, etc, to work.

Have fun with that. I'd rather crack the ECM, I think it will end up being easier.

Gernby

iTrader: (1)

What I'm saying is that it's totally unpredictable, and that there is certainly possible that removing the central ECU from the CAN bus could cause all the other ECU's to go into "limp mode".

SophieSleeps

Yes definitely.
Not to be nitpicky but I was not suggesting the removal of the factory ecu. I'd run the standalone wires around it. Let the factory ECU control whatever it wants (and think it's controlling fuel and timing) while the aftermarket standalone actually controls the running of the car.

SophieSleeps

It appears my mock situation was not clear from Gernby's post.
I was not suggesting the removal of the stock ECU. I was suggesting that the aftermarket standalone be wired in conjunction with it. Leave the stock ECU to take care of it's normal functions but use the standalone to control the motor.

It's my opinion that this will work fairly well and the only issues you'd have are related to VDIM, possibly ABS and cruise.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

That's called an HKS F-ConV. Works like a piggyback. No idea if it will work with the 2UR-GSE, but it does work wonders on the 2JZs. No known aftermarket ECM will emulate the stock setup to ensure the OEM piece doesn't go into limp mode. If the OEM ECM doesn't get the right signals back (you might want to read up on the planar primary O2 sensor and the NB secondary O2 senor's randomly generated test routine for secondary cat efficiency) the OEM unit will go into limp mode and set a bunch of DTCs.

Besides, it's about the most difficult to tune situation unless it's self-tuning like the F-Con is. The bad part about the F-Con is you have to be an HKS Pro dealer to get access.

You're going to need to risk an engine to sort this out. I am very skeptical it will work. Some really bright folks have tried this stuff before and come up empty handed.

SophieSleeps

I'm certainly expecting DTC's as well as some sort of limp mode. Limp mode shouldn't concern anyone on a standalone. Using a standalone in conjunction with a factory ECU is pretty commonplace in the IS300 world. It's actually becoming the standard. It allows full control over the motor while the car controls the creature comforts.

I wouldn't consider it piggybacking. It's a full standalone with leads going directly to injectors, coil ignitors etc. It doesn't intercept and condition a signal to be sent out. It's generating it's own signals regardless of factory ECU input (unless you choose to use factory sensors).

Personally, I am using a Haltech E6X. I don't have any factory 02 sensors at all. I'm tripping maybe 12-13 diagnostic codes. Cruise control and traction control will never work again but everything else in the car does. None of the wires from my standalone go to the factory ECU (with an exception of a trigger pickup box but I could have just used a crank trigger wheel).

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

You must have a manual transmission. You'll not get the 8 speed auto working anytime soon without some hardcore SW reverse engineering. There is no manual option for the F, and losing the OEM transmission functionality would be a disaster.

SophieSleeps

I have a manual transmission right now.
However my previous setup (same Haltech E6X) was on the factory automatic. Drove it like that or 2 years. My paddle shifting still worked fine. No issues.

I'm not quite sure whether you would lose the automatic transmission functions. Controlling the transmission only requires a few inputs which can be simulated pretty easily. Outputs may feed stuff like VDIM, cruise control etc but that becomes irrelevant once you accept that you will not have those things.

My guess is that the transmission harness probably has about 20 or so wires going to it. Shouldn't be that tough to wire up if you needed to...especially if the rest of the car was already running off the standalone.

Here's a screenshot of my current DTC's on my car. If I were to clear some of them (P1300), a slew of hidden ones would appear. I think this is a perfect example of how you the standalone doesn't care about factory codes.