al503

Air does have different properties but the end result will be the same. Push cool air through a hot pipe and the pipe will cool down and the air will heat up. Simple law of physics. If you disagree with that, then you disagree with physics.

Ichigo

Im still driving around "breaking in" the tanabe exhaust. I love the subtle sound thus far. As soon as I get the JoeZ intake put in, ill post about the overall sound with both parts combined.

shox

So couldn't we say this, both intake makes power. The idea behind the JOEZ is logical and fair, which could outperform the LMS or Fujitsubo. But on the other hand, not by much, or even significant at most.

So in the end, you're not losing power with either, just one makes insignificantly more than the other. So unless you tell me you can feel the 2-5HP difference, it wouldn't really matter? I don't know, I'm just blabbing now, I don't even care that much, haha!

Ramon

Actually the LMS does lose power, this has already been documented. There have never been reports of the Joe Z intake losing power, I'm simply bringing up a scenario which has not been brought up before that MAY have some effect on it's gains. But we're not comparing the Joe Z to the LMS anyway, we're comparing the Joe-Z to the stock intake.

I think everyone here is in agreement for the most part that the aluminum pipe will get hotter (be it a lot or a little) than the rubber pipe. The debate topic is weather or not the heat would negate the benifits. Some think yes, some think no which is why I'm going to check the temp of the Joe Z setup as soon as I park the car in my driveway after coming home from work. If the temp difference is small, meaning if I can comfortably touch the Joe Z as I was able to do with the stock one, then I'll be convinced enough to use the Joe Z intake over the stock setup.

caymandive

iTrader: (2)

That is not the proper way to test the intake. If you really want to convince yourself, you better get a temp probe and stick it in near the throttle body opening and compare the stock intake temps vs the JOEZ and see what you get while driving around under various throttle loads.. A simple hand touch of the SHORT pipe won't tell you how much it's affecting the temperature of the RAPIDLY moving air in the pipe.

RCFormante

iTrader: (1)

Can you explain this? Why is there such a noticable difference beyond 4.5k RPM with the LMS intake vs the stock? The LMS intake feels so much better than stock...

caymandive

iTrader: (2)

Sound trickery. I was the same way when I had the LMS intake. I loved it until I started doing tests with it. Kinda like adding a short ram on an Integra Type R. The car sounds mean as hell, but it's losing power. On the other hand a nice made AEM CAI you get the sound and the power.

caymandive

iTrader: (2)

Here is something else to ponder on with regards to air being heated while flowing through the SHORT intake pipe. Lets take a look at a coolant system. The idea here is that air doesn’t remove heat from aluminum but coolant (Fluid) does.

Now back to another example made earlier with the hair dryer. A hair dryer works like this: The airflow generated by the fan is directed down the barrel of the hairdryer, over AND through the heating element. As the air flows over and through the heated coil, heat rising from the coil warms the air by forced convection. The hot air streams out the end of the barrel. This is how you are going to get any measureable rises in air intake temperature. The key word in this is "FORCED CONVECTION"

Lets Drive

iTrader: (3)

Exactly. Touching a pipe to test for heat won't tell you much about the transfer of heat, and isn't any more reliable than the ol' butt dyno measuring a difference of hp. Touching the pipe will only tell you how well the pipe absorbed heat. It doesn't tell you how well the air (which is an insulator/poor conductor of heat) did. I can't stress enough that what matters is how long the air is staying in the pipe. As a gas, it does not transfer heat at nearly a similar rate than the solid metal does, compounded by its velocity, and also the short length of the pipe.

Ramon

I understand that, I just want to see if there is a significant difference it temps... If it is a small difference, I am not going to worry about it, i'll know that it isn't enough to cause any power loss. I know it isn't going to tell me how much heat is being transferred to the intake charge but it will give a general idea as to how warm it gets while driving compared to stock.

caymandive

iTrader: (2)

This shouldn't be a test as to whether you plan to keep the intake on the car or not. Remember metal heats up quick, so unless you are going to drive at highway speeds and slam the brakes on and rush out to open the hood and touch the pipe, you won't be proving anything to yourself to make a valid conclusion/decision.

Ramon

Metal heats up quick, it also dissappates its heat quick, especially aluminum. So if there is indeed enough air flow around the engine bay when the car is in motion then it shouldn't be a problem. As far as sticking a temp gauge in there, it already has one... We just need a scanning tool to read it. I had a scan tool for my old Pontiac Grand Prix and did extensive testing with different intakes until I found one that gave me the coolest reading from the IAT (Intake air temperature) sensor.

ok... I'm off to work now before I'm late!

al503

Exactly. I chuckle every time someone posts a review of a mod that can't add more than a handful of ponies and says the engine pulls so much harder. Part of it is probably psychosomatic and the other part is most likely the increase in sound/noise generated by the part.

Lets Drive

iTrader: (3)

I hear what you're saying about the properties of metal, but understand that not even an oven, or autoclave heats the air inside that quickly; much less a 1 foot aluminum pipe with a vacuum of air moving inside. As for a method to read intake temps*, I can record them via an LCD screen taking information from the ECU in real time (any RPM/vehicle speed), or use a datalog tool and spreadsheet with a laptop. I can also test the piping aft of the intercooler, or the cars upper intake manifold directly afterwards, and get a different temp reading at each point, as opposed to the air intake temp (which will vary depending on sensor location). These are aluminum pipes as well.

* This is the unit I currently use: http://www.rotorsportsracing.com/per...ng/powerfc.htm

In Monitor Mode, the Commander can display up to 10 parameters of data in real time. Monitor Mode can display:

Engine RPM, Ignition Timing, Vehicle Speed, Air Flow Voltage (Pressure Sensor Voltage), Injector Duty Cycle, Boost, Knocking Level, Battery Voltage, Intake Air Temp, Water Temp

Hope this helps clarify/reinforce where I'm acquiring my data for my contribution in this thread.

al503

I keep hearing this explanation that the air inside the tube is moving too fast for it to absorb heat. This is patently (at least to some) untrue. If it were indeed true, then anyone using an intercooler for their turbo/supercharged engine would see no benefit. The air going through the aluminum intercooler is moving just as fast as it would through the rest of the intake plumbing.

Take the Stillen superchargers. They offer different stages. Stage 1 is usually just the supercharger. Stage 2 is usually the same set-up as Stage 1 but only adds an aluminum intercooler to cool the intake air before going into the intake manifold. Guess which one produces more power? As mentioned before, colder air is MUCH more important in FI applications but the principle is the same with NA engines.

Cooler air regardless of how it gets (intercooler) or stays (less heat soak) cooler will give you more power.