Piggyback guys: How clean is your closed loop?
02-05-12, 07:51 AM
#31
The only issue I can imagine with the GTE ecu on a GE is knock. With the GE's higher compression, it seems like it would be prone to knock at high loads based on the GTE low compression timing tables. Not that this applies to me, it is just an observation. I think I may try a piggyback first, and go standalone if it does not work out for me. You can always sell piggybacks, so I could recover most, if not all, of my investment.
02-06-12, 05:06 PM
#32
The knock thing isn't a real problem, even though i thought it would be also originally.
The ecu has conservative tables for timing, which is why you can get bigger map sensors and knock isn't introduce till you go much larger than stock. The reason I wouldn't go over 3 bar on the jdm ecu.
Also, if you are still concerned, NA-t can do something that gte's cannot. thats right, you can adjust the base timing on the gte ecu because you have a cam/crank signal coming from your distributor. you can move the whole base timing back several degrees by rotating the distributor, and your low compression timing tables with higher timing become a high compression timing table with lower timing.
The ecu has conservative tables for timing, which is why you can get bigger map sensors and knock isn't introduce till you go much larger than stock. The reason I wouldn't go over 3 bar on the jdm ecu.
Also, if you are still concerned, NA-t can do something that gte's cannot. thats right, you can adjust the base timing on the gte ecu because you have a cam/crank signal coming from your distributor. you can move the whole base timing back several degrees by rotating the distributor, and your low compression timing tables with higher timing become a high compression timing table with lower timing.
02-07-12, 09:23 AM
#33
let me start off this post by saying that as far as aftermarket EMS goes, i've had:
2 Haltech e6Ks on 2nd gen RX7s, 2 Apexi PowerFCs --one on a 3rd gen RX7 and one on a RB25 240sx-- a Haltech e8 on a 3rd gen RX7, 1 Haltech Platinum Sport 2000 on a 2jzGE running E85, 1 Apexi SAFC on a 2nd gen RX7, 1 Microtech LT-8 on a 2nd gen RX7, and a Nistune on an RB26 S13.
i had a roommate a few years ago who had a Haltech e6X on a 2nd gen RX7, my current roommate has a Haltech Platinum Sprint RE on his 2nd gen RX7, we installed a Haltech e6K on our local buddy's 2nd gen RX7 about 3 weeks ago, and just installed a Haltech e6K on our other local buddy's 1st gen RX7 last weekend. a good buddy of mine with a Haltech e6K on his S13 just upgraded to a Haltech Platinum Sprint.
i have tuned all of these cars, both on dynos (dynojet and dynodynamics) and on the street.
of course you didn't need a post showing off how qualified i am to reply in your thread, but F it. hopefully this will be informative for some of the people on here who give advice/opinions about EMS/piggybacks/AFCs/etc. and don't really know what they're talking about.
i would personally recommend not getting an SAFC. all these do is alter your airflow signal if you have a MAF, or alter your map sensor signal if you have a MAP (i'm assuming you're running a MAP, as you have a jdm 2jzgte?). this works fairly well, but you really don't have control over anything but the map sensor signal... so you are just tricking the ECU into thinking it's running more boost/vacuum than it really is, so the injector duty and timing advance/retard goes right along with it. these work fairly well for lightly modded stuff while on stock injectors and an older/dumber ECU that doesn't do constant correction, but they really just **** stuff up as soon as you upgrade the injectors -- there are separate fuel maps for things like CRANKING (or what you'd call a Priming map in a standalone) that have almost nothing to do with the map sensor so you can't alter the fuel in any way -- so if you get 850cc injectors, your ECU will still fire your injectors like they're the stock 440CCs at the same duty, which will basically double the amount of fuel being shot in.
i would also advise against getting a piggyback ECU unless you spent some $$$ on a nice AEM F/IC, Haltech Interceptor, or Greddy E-manage ultimate. these expensive piggybacks are so powerful that they can basically do everything that a full standalone can do, but they allow you to leave your stock ECU in place, like on an IS300 of 98+SCx00, for example, in which you have to leave the stock ECU in place to control other functions in the car (immobilizer, cruise control, factory alarm, door locks? im not sure what all this does, but it's more than just the engine) and these is300s/98+scx00s are really a pain in the *** when trying to mod the engine control. a lot of people on my.is just get a nice piggyback (most of them have e-manage ultimate), wire it in ontop of the stock ECU, unplug the stock o2 sensors, and tune away like normal.
if you have a 92-94 sc300/sc400 i'd definitely get a full standalone. if you have a 95-97 sc300/sc400 and don't have obd2 plug-in emissions testing, i'd definitely get a full standalone. if you have a 98+ or OBD2 plug-in emissions testing, you are pretty much required to get a fancy piggyback ECU, as the stock ECU has to stay in the car.
it depends how much coin you can drop on the stuff, but if you can afford it, get a haltech platinum sport 2000 or an AEM v2. if you need to spend less, get an AEM v1 or an older Haltech. it depends how many features you want, and if you want to run full-sequential injection/ignition, semi-sequential, automatic transmission control, plug-n-play into the stock harness, make your own ballin *** harness, etc. and if you're wanting to do it on the cheap with a mildly modded setup, Ali's GTE ecu NA-T setup would work well. i could do into pros and cons for each of the full standalones for days, but i'll save you all the boredom.
2 Haltech e6Ks on 2nd gen RX7s, 2 Apexi PowerFCs --one on a 3rd gen RX7 and one on a RB25 240sx-- a Haltech e8 on a 3rd gen RX7, 1 Haltech Platinum Sport 2000 on a 2jzGE running E85, 1 Apexi SAFC on a 2nd gen RX7, 1 Microtech LT-8 on a 2nd gen RX7, and a Nistune on an RB26 S13.
i had a roommate a few years ago who had a Haltech e6X on a 2nd gen RX7, my current roommate has a Haltech Platinum Sprint RE on his 2nd gen RX7, we installed a Haltech e6K on our local buddy's 2nd gen RX7 about 3 weeks ago, and just installed a Haltech e6K on our other local buddy's 1st gen RX7 last weekend. a good buddy of mine with a Haltech e6K on his S13 just upgraded to a Haltech Platinum Sprint.
i have tuned all of these cars, both on dynos (dynojet and dynodynamics) and on the street.
of course you didn't need a post showing off how qualified i am to reply in your thread, but F it. hopefully this will be informative for some of the people on here who give advice/opinions about EMS/piggybacks/AFCs/etc. and don't really know what they're talking about.
i would personally recommend not getting an SAFC. all these do is alter your airflow signal if you have a MAF, or alter your map sensor signal if you have a MAP (i'm assuming you're running a MAP, as you have a jdm 2jzgte?). this works fairly well, but you really don't have control over anything but the map sensor signal... so you are just tricking the ECU into thinking it's running more boost/vacuum than it really is, so the injector duty and timing advance/retard goes right along with it. these work fairly well for lightly modded stuff while on stock injectors and an older/dumber ECU that doesn't do constant correction, but they really just **** stuff up as soon as you upgrade the injectors -- there are separate fuel maps for things like CRANKING (or what you'd call a Priming map in a standalone) that have almost nothing to do with the map sensor so you can't alter the fuel in any way -- so if you get 850cc injectors, your ECU will still fire your injectors like they're the stock 440CCs at the same duty, which will basically double the amount of fuel being shot in.
i would also advise against getting a piggyback ECU unless you spent some $$$ on a nice AEM F/IC, Haltech Interceptor, or Greddy E-manage ultimate. these expensive piggybacks are so powerful that they can basically do everything that a full standalone can do, but they allow you to leave your stock ECU in place, like on an IS300 of 98+SCx00, for example, in which you have to leave the stock ECU in place to control other functions in the car (immobilizer, cruise control, factory alarm, door locks? im not sure what all this does, but it's more than just the engine) and these is300s/98+scx00s are really a pain in the *** when trying to mod the engine control. a lot of people on my.is just get a nice piggyback (most of them have e-manage ultimate), wire it in ontop of the stock ECU, unplug the stock o2 sensors, and tune away like normal.
if you have a 92-94 sc300/sc400 i'd definitely get a full standalone. if you have a 95-97 sc300/sc400 and don't have obd2 plug-in emissions testing, i'd definitely get a full standalone. if you have a 98+ or OBD2 plug-in emissions testing, you are pretty much required to get a fancy piggyback ECU, as the stock ECU has to stay in the car.
it depends how much coin you can drop on the stuff, but if you can afford it, get a haltech platinum sport 2000 or an AEM v2. if you need to spend less, get an AEM v1 or an older Haltech. it depends how many features you want, and if you want to run full-sequential injection/ignition, semi-sequential, automatic transmission control, plug-n-play into the stock harness, make your own ballin *** harness, etc. and if you're wanting to do it on the cheap with a mildly modded setup, Ali's GTE ecu NA-T setup would work well. i could do into pros and cons for each of the full standalones for days, but i'll save you all the boredom.
02-07-12, 09:46 AM
#34
gte & na-t
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^ This is the best post of 2012 
Very nice post. You have done alot of haltech ECus .You know i thought abou going that route but it seems a little more complicated than ECU.
For me Standalone was the best mod i have ever done to my car.
Very nice post. You have done alot of haltech ECus .You know i thought abou going that route but it seems a little more complicated than ECU.For me Standalone was the best mod i have ever done to my car.
02-07-12, 09:52 AM
#35
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Can I ask you, do you have a NA-T or a GTE swap?
The SAFC is a nice little fuel trimmer for the factory speed density cars for a mild increase in injector capability. This is because you are trimming the Voltage for the MAP sensor, which measures the air directly.
Using a SAFC with Throttle Vs RPM is silly, which is what you have to do with the MAF systems.
Either way, it seems the MAP ECU, AEM FIC, And Mega Squirt are the most cost effective Fuel computers you can get when you wanna get serious.
The SAFC is a nice little fuel trimmer for the factory speed density cars for a mild increase in injector capability. This is because you are trimming the Voltage for the MAP sensor, which measures the air directly.
Using a SAFC with Throttle Vs RPM is silly, which is what you have to do with the MAF systems.
Either way, it seems the MAP ECU, AEM FIC, And Mega Squirt are the most cost effective Fuel computers you can get when you wanna get serious.
im not knocking standalones. i would love to have one, for me.. since im not shooting for anything over 550whp i believe the mapecu is the best choice. very cost effective, unless you get a v1 cheap
Last edited by bryan767; 02-07-12 at 09:58 AM.
02-07-12, 09:59 AM
#36
gte & na-t
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^ But bryan remember the 1Jzgte ecu is a POS itself, it does weird things ...they out a bad taste in my mouth so i really just hate the ECU.
That's why when i do 1js swaps i use 2jzgte ecu and harness and 440cc and never look back.
That's why when i do 1js swaps i use 2jzgte ecu and harness and 440cc and never look back.
02-07-12, 10:02 AM
#37
the AEM and Haltech are equally capable. it really just comes down to a few different features, and the overall feel of the software. for people who can spend almost $2000 on an EMS, i always tell them to get a haltech PS2000 and a plug-n-play harness... i'm actually helping a local friend of mine on here Trenton (carfreak75028349248293) install his haltech PS2000 plug-n-play into his GS300 tomorrow night and help him do some tuning.
02-07-12, 10:03 AM
#38
i have a 1jzgte, so its map. the car runs.. but i just dont trust it. and i RARELY ever see a 14.7afr..
im not knocking standalones. i would love to have one, for me.. since im not shooting for anything over 550whp i believe the mapecu is the best choice. very cost effective, unless you get a v1 cheap
im not knocking standalones. i would love to have one, for me.. since im not shooting for anything over 550whp i believe the mapecu is the best choice. very cost effective, unless you get a v1 cheap
rarely ever see a 14.7:1 afr under what condition?
02-07-12, 10:15 AM
#39
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Idle, normal driving. Low load, it jumps all over the place. It's not a huge fuel table you can tune by. I mean it's not going to do an excellent job, like mentioned its just a trimmer
Btw my car was dyno tuned
Btw my car was dyno tuned
02-07-12, 10:20 AM
#40
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Thanks like i said i thought about Haltech 4years ago, but the only local tuner we have is not the best to deal with .Because you **** him off he will lock your tune or FYSU lol trust me so that was the turn off for me.i didnt wanna go through that mess.
02-07-12, 01:27 PM
#41
I think I will try the MapECU 2 first. It will do everything an EMU will do AFAIK. If that does not work, I think I am going MS3X. I have built and tuned MS before and it was pretty inexpensive and easy. The only issue I had was the idle control was not ideal, but that was way back on MS-I and I did not spend too much time dialing it in. For less than $500 I can build a MS3X and have a VERY powerful standalone. I just cant justify spending over 1k on engine management to make 450whp.
02-07-12, 02:08 PM
#42
yeah i like the MS3X concept. i don't have much experience with it, but it is very capable if you know what you're doing. i do know, however, that it can get expensive if you buy the board to make it run a 6cyl fully sequential (like the gte stock ecu does). i wouldn't go to all this trouble unless you're planning on going to run fully sequential inj and ign.
maybe i missed this in an earlier post, but what ECU/piggyback are you using currently?
maybe i missed this in an earlier post, but what ECU/piggyback are you using currently?
02-07-12, 02:12 PM
#43
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If your going to run me2 you should be aware it uses 9pin serial cable to connect to your pc. You will need a serial to pci slot converter because the usb to serial does NOT work. Mapecu3 uses USB or wifi however
02-07-12, 02:38 PM
#44
I think I will try the MapECU 2 first. It will do everything an EMU will do AFAIK. If that does not work, I think I am going MS3X. I have built and tuned MS before and it was pretty inexpensive and easy. The only issue I had was the idle control was not ideal, but that was way back on MS-I and I did not spend too much time dialing it in. For less than $500 I can build a MS3X and have a VERY powerful standalone. I just cant justify spending over 1k on engine management to make 450whp.
Unless you are able to get a MAPECU2 cheap used, I don't see the advantages of spending the extra $$$ over the standard MAPECU. For ~500 you can find used Haltech E6Xs (My.IS) and go standalone.
02-07-12, 02:38 PM
#45
yeah i like the MS3X concept. i don't have much experience with it, but it is very capable if you know what you're doing. i do know, however, that it can get expensive if you buy the board to make it run a 6cyl fully sequential (like the gte stock ecu does). i wouldn't go to all this trouble unless you're planning on going to run fully sequential inj and ign.
maybe i missed this in an earlier post, but what ECU/piggyback are you using currently?
maybe i missed this in an earlier post, but what ECU/piggyback are you using currently?
