water / meth injection on supercharged v8 - coming soon
05-10-09, 08:02 PM
#46
Quick update on my progress and some pics.
I have decided to run the pipe through the engine bay. Two nozzles post blower and pre throttle body. No intercooler of course and ditched the bypass valve.
There didn't seem to be any benefit from the pre-blower nozzle so I decided it wasn't worth whatever risk there may be.
Taking out the intercooler was a no brainer. Have gained about 2psi. Just to give you all an idea of how restrictive an intercooler can be: With the intercooler and no bypass valve I would get bad compressor chatter. Without the intercooler and no bypass valve, have little to no chatter. So the pressure waves between the blower and the intercooler would cause the chatter, not between the throttle plate and the blower.
Have been working on the tuning and I'm getting pretty close. The new plugs seem to be working out but I have not track tested them yet. I also think I'm going to lower the activation point a tad. Looking at my logs it comes on at about 4000rpm (about 4 psi) at WOT.
That's about it for now. I will update after I hit the 1/4 if not before.
KC
I have decided to run the pipe through the engine bay. Two nozzles post blower and pre throttle body. No intercooler of course and ditched the bypass valve.
There didn't seem to be any benefit from the pre-blower nozzle so I decided it wasn't worth whatever risk there may be.
Taking out the intercooler was a no brainer. Have gained about 2psi. Just to give you all an idea of how restrictive an intercooler can be: With the intercooler and no bypass valve I would get bad compressor chatter. Without the intercooler and no bypass valve, have little to no chatter. So the pressure waves between the blower and the intercooler would cause the chatter, not between the throttle plate and the blower.
Have been working on the tuning and I'm getting pretty close. The new plugs seem to be working out but I have not track tested them yet. I also think I'm going to lower the activation point a tad. Looking at my logs it comes on at about 4000rpm (about 4 psi) at WOT.
That's about it for now. I will update after I hit the 1/4 if not before.
KC
05-10-09, 08:06 PM
#47
BTW, I know the sealer is as ugly as sin but I suck at putting holes in the thin wall piping. With the sealer I don't have to worry about leaks.
Also, it took a couple of tries, but nothing is hitting the hood, it's all clear.
One more thing, I improved my belt alignment. Was having an issue with it. I don't think it was slipping under load but the MAP pressures in my logs do look a little smoother now.
KC
Also, it took a couple of tries, but nothing is hitting the hood, it's all clear.
One more thing, I improved my belt alignment. Was having an issue with it. I don't think it was slipping under load but the MAP pressures in my logs do look a little smoother now.
KC
05-10-09, 11:03 PM
#48
There are alot of people that use it and claim it works just fine, no doubt about that. I just hate to see all your effort into this project go to waste because of another "theory" in the forced induction world when you start crankin up the boost. All I can say is that if you get the chance to dyno it, run them back to back and look at the results. Either way progress looks great. GL and post up the new numbers!
BTW you can get aluminum bungs to weld on the piping for the nozzles...
BTW you can get aluminum bungs to weld on the piping for the nozzles...
Last edited by 2jzlex; 05-10-09 at 11:13 PM.
05-11-09, 05:36 PM
#49
There are alot of people that use it and claim it works just fine, no doubt about that. I just hate to see all your effort into this project go to waste because of another "theory" in the forced induction world when you start crankin up the boost. All I can say is that if you get the chance to dyno it, run them back to back and look at the results. Either way progress looks great. GL and post up the new numbers!
BTW you can get aluminum bungs to weld on the piping for the nozzles...
BTW you can get aluminum bungs to weld on the piping for the nozzles...
I have my mind pretty much set on getting some "real" methanol while at the track in Darlington, assuming they have it. Not only would I not have to be concerned with the quality of the meth, it would also make it much easier to try different mixes. I am planning on using AT LEAST a 50/50 w/m mix. I might try as high as 75% on the meth. I wouldn't go higher than 75% for safety reasons, don't want an invisible fire in my engine bay.
I am maxed out on boost without the intercooler. Removing the intercooler is / was about the only thing I could do to up the boost. I am using a 2.4 inch pulley which is the smallest I have found. The place I got it from is also the only place I've found that has such a small pulley, in 6 rib anyway. About the only other thing I could do to up boost, short of getting a bigger blower, would be to find a larger crank pulley.
I did see your thread on the WM injection and I saw the bungs. I like the idea but there is one thing that bothers me. The nozzles I have (don't know if yours are the same) barely stick out into the air stream as it is. I would be worried that the nozzle tip would be sort of recessed possibly causing problems. What I really need to do is find a good welder and have a custom, one piece intake made with some shallow bungs and provisions for the idle air control valve and IAT sensor. That would be sweet.
-----------------------------
On a side note, my car really seems to be likey the new plugs with the close gap. The real test will be the track.
KC
05-11-09, 07:25 PM
#50
Couple of things....
I have my mind pretty much set on getting some "real" methanol while at the track in Darlington, assuming they have it. Not only would I not have to be concerned with the quality of the meth, it would also make it much easier to try different mixes. I am planning on using AT LEAST a 50/50 w/m mix. I might try as high as 75% on the meth. I wouldn't go higher than 75% for safety reasons, don't want an invisible fire in my engine bay.
I am maxed out on boost without the intercooler. Removing the intercooler is / was about the only thing I could do to up the boost. I am using a 2.4 inch pulley which is the smallest I have found. The place I got it from is also the only place I've found that has such a small pulley, in 6 rib anyway. About the only other thing I could do to up boost, short of getting a bigger blower, would be to find a larger crank pulley.
I did see your thread on the WM injection and I saw the bungs. I like the idea but there is one thing that bothers me. The nozzles I have (don't know if yours are the same) barely stick out into the air stream as it is. I would be worried that the nozzle tip would be sort of recessed possibly causing problems. What I really need to do is find a good welder and have a custom, one piece intake made with some shallow bungs and provisions for the idle air control valve and IAT sensor. That would be sweet.
-----------------------------
On a side note, my car really seems to be likey the new plugs with the close gap. The real test will be the track.
KC
I have my mind pretty much set on getting some "real" methanol while at the track in Darlington, assuming they have it. Not only would I not have to be concerned with the quality of the meth, it would also make it much easier to try different mixes. I am planning on using AT LEAST a 50/50 w/m mix. I might try as high as 75% on the meth. I wouldn't go higher than 75% for safety reasons, don't want an invisible fire in my engine bay.
I am maxed out on boost without the intercooler. Removing the intercooler is / was about the only thing I could do to up the boost. I am using a 2.4 inch pulley which is the smallest I have found. The place I got it from is also the only place I've found that has such a small pulley, in 6 rib anyway. About the only other thing I could do to up boost, short of getting a bigger blower, would be to find a larger crank pulley.
I did see your thread on the WM injection and I saw the bungs. I like the idea but there is one thing that bothers me. The nozzles I have (don't know if yours are the same) barely stick out into the air stream as it is. I would be worried that the nozzle tip would be sort of recessed possibly causing problems. What I really need to do is find a good welder and have a custom, one piece intake made with some shallow bungs and provisions for the idle air control valve and IAT sensor. That would be sweet.
-----------------------------
On a side note, my car really seems to be likey the new plugs with the close gap. The real test will be the track.
KC
Glad to hear your gonna run some good mix. It will require a retune, so expect that. Any luck on cracking the timing?
05-11-09, 08:13 PM
#51
Your S/C is already maxed out? WEEEAAAKK! lol. If I remember right my nozzles were almost flush after I had the bungs welded on, so you have some pretty short ones... Glad to hear your gonna run some good mix. It will require a retune, so expect that. Any luck on cracking the timing?
Glad to hear your gonna run some good mix. It will require a retune, so expect that. Any luck on cracking the timing?But, you have to keep in mind this is one of the SMALLEST units Vortech makes. V-9 F-trim.
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/scspecsheet.php
Going by weight (3725 + or - with me in it) and trap speeds (been doing 111-112mph lately), I'm currently making about 380-400 rwhp on a 750cfm blower. Now imagine if I switched to a V-1 T-trim that puts out 1200cfm and can boost up to 26 psi.
I would need to build an engine before even thinking about it though.
And, I always expect the need for tuning changes. Hell, after changing the plugs I am running significantly leaner. I think (my own theory here) this is actually a good sign. Better spark = better combustion = less unburnt fuel = more power. Definately feeling strong.
KC
05-11-09, 09:11 PM
#52
Yes, it is about maxed out. I just figured out that I am spinning it very close to its max speed of 52000 rpm.
But, you have to keep in mind this is one of the SMALLEST units Vortech makes. V-9 F-trim.
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/scspecsheet.php
Going by weight (3725 + or - with me in it) and trap speeds (been doing 111-112mph lately), I'm currently making about 380-400 rwhp on a 750cfm blower. Now imagine if I switched to a V-1 T-trim that puts out 1200cfm and can boost up to 26 psi.
I would need to build an engine before even thinking about it though.
And, I always expect the need for tuning changes. Hell, after changing the plugs I am running significantly leaner. I think (my own theory here) this is actually a good sign. Better spark = better combustion = less unburnt fuel = more power. Definately feeling strong.
KC
But, you have to keep in mind this is one of the SMALLEST units Vortech makes. V-9 F-trim.
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/scspecsheet.php
Going by weight (3725 + or - with me in it) and trap speeds (been doing 111-112mph lately), I'm currently making about 380-400 rwhp on a 750cfm blower. Now imagine if I switched to a V-1 T-trim that puts out 1200cfm and can boost up to 26 psi.
I would need to build an engine before even thinking about it though.
And, I always expect the need for tuning changes. Hell, after changing the plugs I am running significantly leaner. I think (my own theory here) this is actually a good sign. Better spark = better combustion = less unburnt fuel = more power. Definately feeling strong.
KC
Yeah I was gonna ask how much more you were gonna push things till it was time for ripping it open. Go ***** out and twincharge it.... 
05-14-09, 07:17 PM
#53
Update.
So race tracks can be frustrating! Drove 2 hours to Darlington, got there at 7pm. Left at about 11:15pm and only ran twice!
And to top it off I wasn't able to get any Methanol. They do have it but there was a wreck at about 10:45 (bad wreck, pro mod car) and the guy in charge of the gas was part of the clean up crew. I waited for about 20 minutes and gave up. I'll have to look around town I guess.
But I do have a pretty good time to show for it.
Prev best with intercooler and without the wm injection was....
RT 0.354
60ft 1.936
330 5.385
1/8 et 8.169
1/8 mph 88.41
1/4 et 12.625
1/4 mph 111.6
Best time last night was.....
RT 0.03
60ft 1.943
330 5.417
1/8 et 8.187
1/8 mph 89.18
1/4 et 12.637
1/4 mph 111.82
Not too shabby. Probably could have done better with more runs. That run was my second / last run.
I am still pinging a little at the top of 3rd but not near as bad. I was going to run a little richer for the next run but I never got to go again.
KC
That is a new best 1/8 mile trap speed BTW.
So race tracks can be frustrating! Drove 2 hours to Darlington, got there at 7pm. Left at about 11:15pm and only ran twice!
And to top it off I wasn't able to get any Methanol. They do have it but there was a wreck at about 10:45 (bad wreck, pro mod car) and the guy in charge of the gas was part of the clean up crew. I waited for about 20 minutes and gave up. I'll have to look around town I guess.But I do have a pretty good time to show for it.
Prev best with intercooler and without the wm injection was....
RT 0.354
60ft 1.936
330 5.385
1/8 et 8.169
1/8 mph 88.41
1/4 et 12.625
1/4 mph 111.6
Best time last night was.....
RT 0.03
60ft 1.943
330 5.417
1/8 et 8.187
1/8 mph 89.18
1/4 et 12.637
1/4 mph 111.82
Not too shabby. Probably could have done better with more runs. That run was my second / last run.
I am still pinging a little at the top of 3rd but not near as bad. I was going to run a little richer for the next run but I never got to go again.
KC
That is a new best 1/8 mile trap speed BTW.
05-14-09, 08:16 PM
#54
Update.
So race tracks can be frustrating! Drove 2 hours to Darlington, got there at 7pm. Left at about 11:15pm and only ran twice! And to top it off I wasn't able to get any Methanol. They do have it but there was a wreck at about 10:45 (bad wreck, pro mod car) and the guy in charge of the gas was part of the clean up crew. I waited for about 20 minutes and gave up. I'll have to look around town I guess.
But I do have a pretty good time to show for it.
Prev best with intercooler and without the wm injection was....
RT 0.354
60ft 1.936
330 5.385
1/8 et 8.169
1/8 mph 88.41
1/4 et 12.625
1/4 mph 111.6
Best time last night was.....
RT 0.03
60ft 1.943
330 5.417
1/8 et 8.187
1/8 mph 89.18
1/4 et 12.637
1/4 mph 111.82
Not too shabby. Probably could have done better with more runs. That run was my second / last run.
I am still pinging a little at the top of 3rd but not near as bad. I was going to run a little richer for the next run but I never got to go again.
KC
That is a new best 1/8 mile trap speed BTW.
So race tracks can be frustrating! Drove 2 hours to Darlington, got there at 7pm. Left at about 11:15pm and only ran twice!
And to top it off I wasn't able to get any Methanol. They do have it but there was a wreck at about 10:45 (bad wreck, pro mod car) and the guy in charge of the gas was part of the clean up crew. I waited for about 20 minutes and gave up. I'll have to look around town I guess.But I do have a pretty good time to show for it.
Prev best with intercooler and without the wm injection was....
RT 0.354
60ft 1.936
330 5.385
1/8 et 8.169
1/8 mph 88.41
1/4 et 12.625
1/4 mph 111.6
Best time last night was.....
RT 0.03
60ft 1.943
330 5.417
1/8 et 8.187
1/8 mph 89.18
1/4 et 12.637
1/4 mph 111.82
Not too shabby. Probably could have done better with more runs. That run was my second / last run.
I am still pinging a little at the top of 3rd but not near as bad. I was going to run a little richer for the next run but I never got to go again.
KC
That is a new best 1/8 mile trap speed BTW.
05-15-09, 07:24 PM
#55
The burning question though, why am I pinging?
The plugs have definately helped with the pinging and the power. I had the same setup but with the bypass valve and the copper plugs gapped to .036 and ran a best (1/8 mile track) of 8.285 @ 86.861 with a 1.918 60ft. Took out the bypass and put in the iridium plugs gapped to .028 and ran a best of 8.187 @ 89.18 with a 1.943 60ft. So between the plugs and the bypass valve, I have gained some power.
I'm kind of at a loss. Options:
1. Run richer. I was going to but didn't get to run again. I'm confused on what the afr should be with wm injection. Methanol's perfect burn is 6 something to 1 versus gasoline's 14.7 to 1 so I would think that I that if one is spraying a fair amount of meth into the mix, richer afrs would be optimal.
2. Try the bkr8eix plugs.
3. Try running with the ECT in NORM mode, I've heard that the ECU adds timing in power mode but I don't know if it's true. I'm currently feeding the PWR terminal of the ECU 12volts when the key is on since I'm using the NORM/PWR switch to select auto or manual modes for the Suprastick.
4. Add another nozzle.
5. Play with the WM mix. Not sure if I'd want more or less water though.
Thoughts?
KC
The plugs have definately helped with the pinging and the power. I had the same setup but with the bypass valve and the copper plugs gapped to .036 and ran a best (1/8 mile track) of 8.285 @ 86.861 with a 1.918 60ft. Took out the bypass and put in the iridium plugs gapped to .028 and ran a best of 8.187 @ 89.18 with a 1.943 60ft. So between the plugs and the bypass valve, I have gained some power.
I'm kind of at a loss. Options:
1. Run richer. I was going to but didn't get to run again. I'm confused on what the afr should be with wm injection. Methanol's perfect burn is 6 something to 1 versus gasoline's 14.7 to 1 so I would think that I that if one is spraying a fair amount of meth into the mix, richer afrs would be optimal.
2. Try the bkr8eix plugs.
3. Try running with the ECT in NORM mode, I've heard that the ECU adds timing in power mode but I don't know if it's true. I'm currently feeding the PWR terminal of the ECU 12volts when the key is on since I'm using the NORM/PWR switch to select auto or manual modes for the Suprastick.
4. Add another nozzle.
5. Play with the WM mix. Not sure if I'd want more or less water though.
Thoughts?
KC
05-17-09, 07:11 AM
#56
Quick update.
Put in a set of bkr8eix's, left the gap alone. I measured one of them, they are pre-gapped to about .030. Have not track tested yet but so far so good.
I didn't run but I went to the local 1/8 mile track last night and picked up 5 gallons of Sunoco methanol for $20. Also picked up some bottled water at the grocery store. I have already pre-mixed some, 75% meth 25% water. Nothing scientific, got a jug and marked it at about 1/4 gallon. 3 parts meth to 1 part water. If for some reason I don't like the 75% meth, I can easily add 1 more part water and have a 60-40 mix. Haven't drove it at all yet since filling the washer jug, which I drained via the wiper/washer motor, but I have high hopes.
KC
Put in a set of bkr8eix's, left the gap alone. I measured one of them, they are pre-gapped to about .030. Have not track tested yet but so far so good.
I didn't run but I went to the local 1/8 mile track last night and picked up 5 gallons of Sunoco methanol for $20. Also picked up some bottled water at the grocery store. I have already pre-mixed some, 75% meth 25% water. Nothing scientific, got a jug and marked it at about 1/4 gallon. 3 parts meth to 1 part water. If for some reason I don't like the 75% meth, I can easily add 1 more part water and have a 60-40 mix. Haven't drove it at all yet since filling the washer jug, which I drained via the wiper/washer motor, but I have high hopes.
KC
05-18-09, 02:03 PM
#58
I think there is still the potential to run faster, maybe even significantly faster. I am trying something new with the tuning, hopefully it works out. Trying to tune without the o2 sensors connected, which puts me in open loop 100% of the time. (2jzlex, you have a pm coming soon).
I had tried this before without much luck but I have a much better understanding of the tuning process than I did a year ago when I tried last.
One nice thing about the MAFTPro is that it can automatically track and keep the afr where you set it for pretty much all driving conditions, AND, the percent of fuel being added or taken out to keep it where set can be logged. Should make it pretty easy to tune full time open loop.
Not sure when I'll make it to the track next but I'll update.
KC
06-05-09, 06:58 PM
#59
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...............
I was having some heat soak issues with normal driving, I put the IC back in. I went to the track with the setup and the engine bounced on the rev limiter like mad on the 1-2 shift.
I only have two theories here.
1. The water meth injection combined with the intercooler is making allot more power than either by themselves.
2. My trans has had it.
I don't think the trans is done yet. I adjusted the Suprastick for the 1-2 shift and was going to try again but I sprung a leak on one of my coolant hoses and didn't get to run again. So, stay tuned.
I also tried a smaller intercooler, that didn't work out. Without an intercooler I make about 12psi. With the large intercooler (20x10x3) I make about 9psi, with the smaller intercooler I tried (21x5.5x2.5) I was lucky to see 6psi and it felt weak on the top end. So I'm going to keep the big intercooler and run with it and the WM injection to see what happens.
Have something else up my sleeve, I'm going to bring up in another thread.
KC
I was having some heat soak issues with normal driving, I put the IC back in. I went to the track with the setup and the engine bounced on the rev limiter like mad on the 1-2 shift.
I only have two theories here.
1. The water meth injection combined with the intercooler is making allot more power than either by themselves.
2. My trans has had it.
I don't think the trans is done yet. I adjusted the Suprastick for the 1-2 shift and was going to try again but I sprung a leak on one of my coolant hoses and didn't get to run again. So, stay tuned.
I also tried a smaller intercooler, that didn't work out. Without an intercooler I make about 12psi. With the large intercooler (20x10x3) I make about 9psi, with the smaller intercooler I tried (21x5.5x2.5) I was lucky to see 6psi and it felt weak on the top end. So I'm going to keep the big intercooler and run with it and the WM injection to see what happens.
Have something else up my sleeve, I'm going to bring up in another thread.
KC
01-01-10, 01:52 PM
#60
Hey guys.
Thought I'd share some "real world" info on the effectiveness of water / meth injection. Using 75% meth (Sunoco) and 25% water.
Last ran the local 1/8 mile in November. I had the w/m pump disconnected the night before while I was doing some work to the car. I had forgotten to hook it back up so the first few runs were without it. As soon as I noticed my intake temps going to the sky I hooked it up.
Anyway, best run WITHOUT the w/m injection was a 7.915 @ 87.254. Best run WITH the w/m injection was a 7.703 @ 88.723! So over two tenths and alomost 1.5 mph WITHOUT any difference in tuning. Not too shabby! Probably about a 100 degree difference in temperatures by the end of the runs.
The 7.703 is, by allot, a new personal best.
Here's the vid for anyone who hasn't seen it. Not bad for a daily driven SC400!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM2qX_nLHzw
KC
Thought I'd share some "real world" info on the effectiveness of water / meth injection. Using 75% meth (Sunoco) and 25% water.
Last ran the local 1/8 mile in November. I had the w/m pump disconnected the night before while I was doing some work to the car. I had forgotten to hook it back up so the first few runs were without it. As soon as I noticed my intake temps going to the sky I hooked it up.
Anyway, best run WITHOUT the w/m injection was a 7.915 @ 87.254. Best run WITH the w/m injection was a 7.703 @ 88.723! So over two tenths and alomost 1.5 mph WITHOUT any difference in tuning. Not too shabby! Probably about a 100 degree difference in temperatures by the end of the runs.
The 7.703 is, by allot, a new personal best.
Here's the vid for anyone who hasn't seen it. Not bad for a daily driven SC400!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM2qX_nLHzw
KC