Needle-type & click-type torque wrench accuracy
06-01-13, 05:39 PM
#1
Needle-type & click-type torque wrench accuracy
I am about to torque down the rod and main bolts on my engine block. I am still contemplating if I should use the needle type or the click type torque wrench.
I am kind of skeptical using the click type since I only have an access to a cheaper, no brand name torque wrench. I don't know if I can really trust that one. If I have like a Snap-on or something in that range, I will feel more comfortable.
What about the needle-type? I would like to know your input on both of these types.
I am kind of skeptical using the click type since I only have an access to a cheaper, no brand name torque wrench. I don't know if I can really trust that one. If I have like a Snap-on or something in that range, I will feel more comfortable.
What about the needle-type? I would like to know your input on both of these types.
06-01-13, 06:25 PM
#2
the "needle" type is the best type to go with.
they are more accurate, theyre more affordable, and can take more of a beating than
click types (even though you should treat calibrated with great care, of course.)
when it comes with to special/calibrated equipment, it is always best to go with the bigger brand names.
although ALL torque wrenches have at least a small percentage of error, which is part of the reason there are low & high torque ranges.
also, in short, you would be fine using EITHER type of torque wrench even with their margin of error but your question was which was better
experience: i am a torpedo man (weapons technician/mechanic) on submarines for the navy.
reference: US Navy's Joint Fleet Maintenance Manual, chapter 5
http://www.submepp.navy.mil/jfmm/doc...Volume%20V.pdf
they are more accurate, theyre more affordable, and can take more of a beating than
click types (even though you should treat calibrated with great care, of course.)
when it comes with to special/calibrated equipment, it is always best to go with the bigger brand names.
although ALL torque wrenches have at least a small percentage of error, which is part of the reason there are low & high torque ranges.
also, in short, you would be fine using EITHER type of torque wrench even with their margin of error but your question was which was better
experience: i am a torpedo man (weapons technician/mechanic) on submarines for the navy.
reference: US Navy's Joint Fleet Maintenance Manual, chapter 5
http://www.submepp.navy.mil/jfmm/doc...Volume%20V.pdf
06-01-13, 06:32 PM
#4
on the boat (sub) to restrain the 4500 LB torpedoes in the torpedo room we use "lashing straps' that have huge nuts that have to be torqued to 500 in lbs each. for this we use the click (micrometer) type tq wrenches.
here is an excerpt in regards to torque and how we choose/use our tq wrenches:
5.2.2 Torque Wrenches.
a. Selection. Torque wrenches should be selected in such a manner that the required final torque falls
within 20% to 90% of the torque wrench range. For example:
(1) A torque wrench with a scale range of 0-100 ft-lbs can be used for a maximum torque of 90 ftlbs and a minimum torque of 20 ft-lbs.
(2) A torque wrench with a scale range of 50-250 ft-lbs can be used for a maximum torque of 225
ft-lbs and a minimum torque of 50 ft-lbs.
b. Calibration. Calibration should be verified to be within the required periodicity (based on due date on
the calibration label) prior to use. Most Navy torque wrenches are calibrated for use in one direction
only. These tools will have a label affixed stating, "Use Clockwise Only" or "Use Counterclockwise
Only". The tool can be used only in the direction indicated. Torque tools calibrated for bi-directional
use will bear a yellow "SPECIAL CALIBRATION" tag or label indicating that the tool was calibrated
for use in both directions. Navy torque wrenches can be calibrated for bi-directional use only if
specifically authorized by model number in the latest Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA) OD
45845.
c. Micrometer adjustable torque wrenches. To ensure acceptable performance of micrometer adjusted
torque wrenches, users must adhere to the following requirements:
(1) Exercise the wrench (apply pressure until snap mechanism activates) six times at
approximately 60 percent of the rated maximum value before each use. This procedure
minimizes the erratic readings often experienced with this type of wrench during the first few
activations.
(2) Micrometer-type wrenches to be used in counterclockwise applications should be calibrated in
the counterclockwise direction and marked as such.
long story short, since micrometer tq wrenches are prone to error, we set them to 60% of their capacity and then exercise them (turn them til they click) 6 times to.. "work out all the errors"
also, again since tq wrenches in general are prone to error, our tq value/spec has to fall within 20-90% of the tq wrenches value.
here is an excerpt in regards to torque and how we choose/use our tq wrenches:
5.2.2 Torque Wrenches.
a. Selection. Torque wrenches should be selected in such a manner that the required final torque falls
within 20% to 90% of the torque wrench range. For example:
(1) A torque wrench with a scale range of 0-100 ft-lbs can be used for a maximum torque of 90 ftlbs and a minimum torque of 20 ft-lbs.
(2) A torque wrench with a scale range of 50-250 ft-lbs can be used for a maximum torque of 225
ft-lbs and a minimum torque of 50 ft-lbs.
b. Calibration. Calibration should be verified to be within the required periodicity (based on due date on
the calibration label) prior to use. Most Navy torque wrenches are calibrated for use in one direction
only. These tools will have a label affixed stating, "Use Clockwise Only" or "Use Counterclockwise
Only". The tool can be used only in the direction indicated. Torque tools calibrated for bi-directional
use will bear a yellow "SPECIAL CALIBRATION" tag or label indicating that the tool was calibrated
for use in both directions. Navy torque wrenches can be calibrated for bi-directional use only if
specifically authorized by model number in the latest Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA) OD
45845.
c. Micrometer adjustable torque wrenches. To ensure acceptable performance of micrometer adjusted
torque wrenches, users must adhere to the following requirements:
(1) Exercise the wrench (apply pressure until snap mechanism activates) six times at
approximately 60 percent of the rated maximum value before each use. This procedure
minimizes the erratic readings often experienced with this type of wrench during the first few
activations.
(2) Micrometer-type wrenches to be used in counterclockwise applications should be calibrated in
the counterclockwise direction and marked as such.
long story short, since micrometer tq wrenches are prone to error, we set them to 60% of their capacity and then exercise them (turn them til they click) 6 times to.. "work out all the errors"
also, again since tq wrenches in general are prone to error, our tq value/spec has to fall within 20-90% of the tq wrenches value.
06-01-13, 06:34 PM
#5
i bought this tq wrench from hf a few years ago mainly to tq my lug nuts
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-hal...D%0AOCJ9%0D%0A
according to the specs its accuracy is -/+ 4% which isnt bad for that price. as long as you arent doing super critical work id say go for it
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-hal...D%0AOCJ9%0D%0A
according to the specs its accuracy is -/+ 4% which isnt bad for that price. as long as you arent doing super critical work id say go for it
06-01-13, 06:38 PM
#6
i bought this tq wrench from hf a few years ago mainly to tq my lug nuts
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-hal...D%0AOCJ9%0D%0A
according to the specs its accuracy is -/+ 4% which isnt bad for that price. as long as you arent doing super critical work id say go for it
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-hal...D%0AOCJ9%0D%0A
according to the specs its accuracy is -/+ 4% which isnt bad for that price. as long as you arent doing super critical work id say go for it
06-01-13, 06:59 PM
#7
oh i agree if theres any place that you dont want to cut corners, its in an engine rebuild, which is why i bought a craftsman needle tq wrench for a rebuild (lil bit of a step up from HF)
but when youre torquing rod bolts, etc they have a low and high torque spec, to account for error, i always torque to the middle of the 2 numbers.
example: 1996 nissan 240sx connecting rod nuts:
torque spec is 28-33 ft lb, i would tq to 31 ft lb
a 4% error is only 1.24ft lb so id actually be tqing to 29.76-32.24 ft lbs, which are both within range
of that torque spec.
but when youre torquing rod bolts, etc they have a low and high torque spec, to account for error, i always torque to the middle of the 2 numbers.
example: 1996 nissan 240sx connecting rod nuts:
torque spec is 28-33 ft lb, i would tq to 31 ft lb
a 4% error is only 1.24ft lb so id actually be tqing to 29.76-32.24 ft lbs, which are both within range
of that torque spec.
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06-01-13, 07:09 PM
#8
oh i agree if theres any place that you dont want to cut corners, its in an engine rebuild, which is why i bought a craftsman needle tq wrench for a rebuild (lil bit of a step up from HF)
but when youre torquing rod bolts, etc they have a low and high torque spec, to account for error, i always torque to the middle of the 2 numbers.
example: 1996 nissan 240sx connecting rod nuts:
torque spec is 28-33 ft lb, i would tq to 31 ft lb
a 4% error is only 1.24ft lb so id actually be tqing to 29.76-32.24 ft lbs, which are both within range
of that torque spec.
but when youre torquing rod bolts, etc they have a low and high torque spec, to account for error, i always torque to the middle of the 2 numbers.
example: 1996 nissan 240sx connecting rod nuts:
torque spec is 28-33 ft lb, i would tq to 31 ft lb
a 4% error is only 1.24ft lb so id actually be tqing to 29.76-32.24 ft lbs, which are both within range
of that torque spec.
Can you please tell me how to calculate that 4% error?
06-01-13, 07:41 PM
#9
I have a cheapie no name brand that is identical in torque to each of 5 snap-on, calibrated twice a year, torque wrenches at work... I used it successfully to torque everything that needed torquing...
rod bolts are easy - relatively low torque numbers, the important part is the 1/4 turn portion...
head studs (hopefully you sprung for ARP head studs, using OEM style ones are a waste of a motor build if it is already apart) are easy as well... torque isn't even that super duper important on them, so long as they are torqued evenly... literally can torque them anywhere from 75 to 90 lb-ft and be successful...
rod bolts are easy - relatively low torque numbers, the important part is the 1/4 turn portion...
head studs (hopefully you sprung for ARP head studs, using OEM style ones are a waste of a motor build if it is already apart) are easy as well... torque isn't even that super duper important on them, so long as they are torqued evenly... literally can torque them anywhere from 75 to 90 lb-ft and be successful...
06-01-13, 07:52 PM
#11
Off topic,
What do you suggest doing on my crankshaft? I don't want to do knife edging, just want to keep everything oe. Maybe balancing and that's about it?
What about piston and rods? What needed to be checked? I am buying oem piston rings set amd just clean them out.
About the block, just want to hot tanked it.
The block looks pretty good, I don't think I would go all out on it.
What do you suggest doing on my crankshaft? I don't want to do knife edging, just want to keep everything oe. Maybe balancing and that's about it?
What about piston and rods? What needed to be checked? I am buying oem piston rings set amd just clean them out.
About the block, just want to hot tanked it.
The block looks pretty good, I don't think I would go all out on it.
06-01-13, 08:46 PM
#12
to get X% of something, you multiply the number you are trying to find X% of and the X% then divide
by 100.
example, we want 4% of 31 so 4 x 31 = 124
then divide 124 by 100.
as for the crank, you want to get it mic'd (measured by micrometer). this will determine if you need bigger bearings and if you need to have it balanced.
as for pistons and rods, DONT buy the rings yet because you need to have the cylinders mic'ed to determine if they need to be bored out any. if they require a bore, for example .25mm over, then youll need to buy .25mm over pistons with matching rings. as for the rods, theyll just do some measurements/tests to see if they are within standards and if you can reuse them or not.
by 100.
example, we want 4% of 31 so 4 x 31 = 124
then divide 124 by 100.
as for the crank, you want to get it mic'd (measured by micrometer). this will determine if you need bigger bearings and if you need to have it balanced.
as for pistons and rods, DONT buy the rings yet because you need to have the cylinders mic'ed to determine if they need to be bored out any. if they require a bore, for example .25mm over, then youll need to buy .25mm over pistons with matching rings. as for the rods, theyll just do some measurements/tests to see if they are within standards and if you can reuse them or not.
06-02-13, 07:25 AM
#13
Yup... Toyota blocks are awesome from the factory, so much so, that one block I have has been honed twice and is still within factory specification... the crank has been out of the same one and same thing - within factory specs...
the crank and block assembly is so stout in all of the 2JZ's, that I wouldn't recommend doing anything aside from cleaning, polishing, honing and checking tolerances... what pistons and rods? please don't re use the VVTI pistons and rods... they are terribly weak in comparison, and even a used set of GE (non vvti) or GTE pistons and rods is a massive upgrade...
cheapest place to buy the OE rings is driftmotion...
also, line honing isn't completely necessary with main studs - the problem is the torque values can be much higher with main studs and they just need to be checked prior to installation...
the crank and block assembly is so stout in all of the 2JZ's, that I wouldn't recommend doing anything aside from cleaning, polishing, honing and checking tolerances... what pistons and rods? please don't re use the VVTI pistons and rods... they are terribly weak in comparison, and even a used set of GE (non vvti) or GTE pistons and rods is a massive upgrade...
cheapest place to buy the OE rings is driftmotion...
also, line honing isn't completely necessary with main studs - the problem is the torque values can be much higher with main studs and they just need to be checked prior to installation...
Last edited by mitsuguy; 06-02-13 at 07:29 AM.
06-02-13, 07:47 AM
#14
So if its still in factory specs, I should buy the same OE piston ring set from toyota? Are those piston ring set have different specs you can chose or just one spec for all GTEs?
06-02-13, 07:53 AM
#15
Honing, you mean to clean the cylinder walls right? Boring is a different procedure, correct?
I will be using all stock GTE pistons and rods.
So if its still in factory specs, I should buy the same OE piston ring set from toyota? Are those piston ring set have different specs you can chose or just one spec for all GTEs?
I will be using all stock GTE pistons and rods.
So if its still in factory specs, I should buy the same OE piston ring set from toyota? Are those piston ring set have different specs you can chose or just one spec for all GTEs?
Honing gives you the pretty cross cut pattern to break in rings, boring enlarges the hole for larger pistons...
Good, the stock GTE stuff is pretty stout.. I recommend using a stock GE (thin) head gasket so you don't lose "squish".
Don't buy them from Toyota, get them from Aaron at Driftmotion.com for cheaper... they are factory fit for stock bores - just need to check them to make sure there is enough clearance between the ring ends prior to installation...