I caved and joined.....
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Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 18,346
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From: Ohio
Thread Starter
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 18,346
Likes: 1,795
From: Ohio
Did a three way comparison today.......got interesting results as well I think.
02 LS430 sport suspension
07 LS460 Non-Air SWB
15 A8L APR S1
Drive was about 30 min each up from my house to the shop and back, speeds varied from in suburb to 130 mph and roads involved state highways, switchbacks, sweepers, and small tight winding back roads. Normally this drive is 20 min each way, 10 min was removed due to high speed return trips.
Test was done at about 55 degrees, at dusk for the first car. Major factors car to car is that the 430 is on W rated higher performance all seasons (UHPAS), the A8 is on summer only UHPs in the form of Eagle asymmetric 3s and the 460 used the worst tires of the group in the from of primacy MXM4s
Speed/power
No question here, it's a 1-2-3 finish in the predictively logical order. The A8 is obscenely fast and claws it's way with the tires all chirping at the first two shifts to 130 like it's nothing....and it isn't since it does 180+. The experience is loud, violent, the steering swims around and the whole car feels like it's straining everything it has to pin you back and fly forward. I'm still shaking a little as it's the last one I drove lol!
The 460 is well.....not an A8, it delivers a fairly respectable amount of power in a far more calm and near silent manner. 100 comes around quite readily and 130 is reached with no fuss but it's clearly not in the same league as the Germans. I don't think I would class the LS as a true competitor to the likes of the S-class, A8, and 7 series in these years solely due to the fact that while in 07 it was competitive it needs forced induction to even have a chance here......it doesn't matter that the rest of the car is superior. The most standout aspect however was the feeling of unity with the machine and seamless, effortless power that just "glides" along at your demand. This is in sharp contrast to the A8 that feels like you are sitting in a ride and not really driving the car. The 460 doesn't push, pull, strain, or jump around at all and screams connected calmness over anything else. Very composed overall.
The 430 is obviously the slowest of the group but not by as much of a margin as you might think, there is more difference in 460 vs A8 than 430 vs 460. This car doesn't really want to get up and run vs the others if you don't have it in pwr mode, that's because the ECU tune I have is set to only activate in said mode. In normal it's very reluctant to shift, rev, respond or really do anything. With the increased aggression of shifts and 1:1 throttle programming in the tuned mode the 430 actually likes to play a bit, revs are kept over 3k RPM automatically unless you go on the brakes hard. Power delivery however is the definition of seamless, you literally can't feel the gears changing, the car just emits a little V8 tone and gently pushes you back and then advances its way to 130+.
Speaking of brakes.......
Brake performance
This is the one that will likely surprise people, I rate the 430 as the best in this department vs the others easily. I can without too much concern apply brakes enough to rotate the car mid corner or trail brake without getting the car too unhappy and they still have enough power to grab the car back from 130 to 30 without drama. In terms of raw stopping power it can't tie the Audi simply on merit of the fact the A8 has true performance tires and can just stop faster. That aside it's the most enjoyable to use hard.
Second place is the 460, I'm still not used to the electromechanical brake system but similar to the 430 the car is mostly predictable and the system works well. Main thing I'm getting used to still is that the brakes can't be modulated as precisely, it's a very ON/OFF feel at times. Once again in line with the theme of this car, very composed, no drama or noise, very isolated if I had to assign a word to it.
Last place is the A8, shocking I know. The brakes on this car can bring you to a stop fast, hard, jarring, and when hot, very shaky. Audi for some reason saw fit to have the A8 make due with sliding type calipers and lord does this decision to paywall fixed+multi-piston brakes behind the S8 badge anger me. The brakes are an on/off switch on this car and are wholly underpowered vs the motive forces you have access to. Whereas the LSs have well matched brakes to their speed and power the A8 has about 3/5 of the brakes you really need to use that power properly. You can't apply them in corners really since when hot the brakes shake the whole car and are very bite prone/ unpredictable. Can the car stop quickly? Sure. It doesn't feel nice to use though and is not as confident as the other two.
Suspension performance
Well I'm not quite sure how to rank this actually, in terms of keeping the car on the road the A8 does extremely well but a lot of that credit goes to the AWD system. When driven hard you can feel EVERYTHING, there is no question what is going on and you can feel individual wheels fighting for traction and even bounce off TC limiters. No exaggeration you can feel an individual wheel "slip" 1/4 a rotation and then be regained by traction control. Pavement differences are immediate and instinct, when you request the car change direction or alter your line mid corner the air system controls the body nearly like a Porsche. You can "twitch" over into another lane and you would never think the car is 5000lb. However.......when you aren't driving hard is when this car falls apart IMO. This is by a substantial (50000 miles) margin the lowest mileage car and also has the benefit of air suspension, you would never know it. There are a multitude of rattles, a strange squeak I can't find but I suspect is the sway link, and so many vibrations. I can't stress this enough but this car has SO MUCH NVH it's maddening to drive normally. The cup holder shakes, the dash rattles, the seat squeaks, the steering has jumpy feedback, and the vehicle simply doesn't absorb road impacts. Nothing at all like one expects from a flagship car yet alone an air, LWB version. I would never just take this car for a cruise.
The 460 has an exceedingly solid, monolithic, isolated feeling that simply exudes confidence and reassurance. It's hard to describe but it's almost like the suspension doesn't exist? That the car is attached to the road directly, but at the same time not at all?.......it's very peculiar and I've never really felt a car quite like it before. It's not communicative at all but at the same time I know exactly where all my wheels are and what they are doing, it's not muted or "hand in 3 mitts trying to feel the road" or anything but just a pleasant however strange feeling of extremely solid isolation. Subjectively it's incredible since it's supremely quiet and smooth but still reacts the second I do anything. Nothing makes it to you that is unpleasant, it's almost as if the car has a filter of sorts that stonewalls anything unpleasant but allows driving info through. That's the best way I can describe it.
The 430 is the fun one, the sport type suspension is very reactive to surfaces but the inherent nature of the car is very soft and body roll prone, commands are on a delay from when you issue them. The car informs you very well what is going on but when you back off is still very smooth, the "filtering" effect of the 460 is not present but rather the phenomenon that occurs here is more akin to simply turning a volume **** down. Everything is still there but not as "loud" as when you are driving in anger, it allows things to calm down enough when cruising to be enjoyable but the second you want to play it's ready. Body roll is a persistent issue with this car however and individual wheel feedback is low, you can generally tell what each end of the car is doing but you can't reach out and feel the individual wheels like in the A8 or even the 460
02 LS430 sport suspension
07 LS460 Non-Air SWB
15 A8L APR S1
Drive was about 30 min each up from my house to the shop and back, speeds varied from in suburb to 130 mph and roads involved state highways, switchbacks, sweepers, and small tight winding back roads. Normally this drive is 20 min each way, 10 min was removed due to high speed return trips.
Test was done at about 55 degrees, at dusk for the first car. Major factors car to car is that the 430 is on W rated higher performance all seasons (UHPAS), the A8 is on summer only UHPs in the form of Eagle asymmetric 3s and the 460 used the worst tires of the group in the from of primacy MXM4s
Speed/power
No question here, it's a 1-2-3 finish in the predictively logical order. The A8 is obscenely fast and claws it's way with the tires all chirping at the first two shifts to 130 like it's nothing....and it isn't since it does 180+. The experience is loud, violent, the steering swims around and the whole car feels like it's straining everything it has to pin you back and fly forward. I'm still shaking a little as it's the last one I drove lol!
The 460 is well.....not an A8, it delivers a fairly respectable amount of power in a far more calm and near silent manner. 100 comes around quite readily and 130 is reached with no fuss but it's clearly not in the same league as the Germans. I don't think I would class the LS as a true competitor to the likes of the S-class, A8, and 7 series in these years solely due to the fact that while in 07 it was competitive it needs forced induction to even have a chance here......it doesn't matter that the rest of the car is superior. The most standout aspect however was the feeling of unity with the machine and seamless, effortless power that just "glides" along at your demand. This is in sharp contrast to the A8 that feels like you are sitting in a ride and not really driving the car. The 460 doesn't push, pull, strain, or jump around at all and screams connected calmness over anything else. Very composed overall.
The 430 is obviously the slowest of the group but not by as much of a margin as you might think, there is more difference in 460 vs A8 than 430 vs 460. This car doesn't really want to get up and run vs the others if you don't have it in pwr mode, that's because the ECU tune I have is set to only activate in said mode. In normal it's very reluctant to shift, rev, respond or really do anything. With the increased aggression of shifts and 1:1 throttle programming in the tuned mode the 430 actually likes to play a bit, revs are kept over 3k RPM automatically unless you go on the brakes hard. Power delivery however is the definition of seamless, you literally can't feel the gears changing, the car just emits a little V8 tone and gently pushes you back and then advances its way to 130+.
Speaking of brakes.......
Brake performance
This is the one that will likely surprise people, I rate the 430 as the best in this department vs the others easily. I can without too much concern apply brakes enough to rotate the car mid corner or trail brake without getting the car too unhappy and they still have enough power to grab the car back from 130 to 30 without drama. In terms of raw stopping power it can't tie the Audi simply on merit of the fact the A8 has true performance tires and can just stop faster. That aside it's the most enjoyable to use hard.
Second place is the 460, I'm still not used to the electromechanical brake system but similar to the 430 the car is mostly predictable and the system works well. Main thing I'm getting used to still is that the brakes can't be modulated as precisely, it's a very ON/OFF feel at times. Once again in line with the theme of this car, very composed, no drama or noise, very isolated if I had to assign a word to it.
Last place is the A8, shocking I know. The brakes on this car can bring you to a stop fast, hard, jarring, and when hot, very shaky. Audi for some reason saw fit to have the A8 make due with sliding type calipers and lord does this decision to paywall fixed+multi-piston brakes behind the S8 badge anger me. The brakes are an on/off switch on this car and are wholly underpowered vs the motive forces you have access to. Whereas the LSs have well matched brakes to their speed and power the A8 has about 3/5 of the brakes you really need to use that power properly. You can't apply them in corners really since when hot the brakes shake the whole car and are very bite prone/ unpredictable. Can the car stop quickly? Sure. It doesn't feel nice to use though and is not as confident as the other two.
Suspension performance
Well I'm not quite sure how to rank this actually, in terms of keeping the car on the road the A8 does extremely well but a lot of that credit goes to the AWD system. When driven hard you can feel EVERYTHING, there is no question what is going on and you can feel individual wheels fighting for traction and even bounce off TC limiters. No exaggeration you can feel an individual wheel "slip" 1/4 a rotation and then be regained by traction control. Pavement differences are immediate and instinct, when you request the car change direction or alter your line mid corner the air system controls the body nearly like a Porsche. You can "twitch" over into another lane and you would never think the car is 5000lb. However.......when you aren't driving hard is when this car falls apart IMO. This is by a substantial (50000 miles) margin the lowest mileage car and also has the benefit of air suspension, you would never know it. There are a multitude of rattles, a strange squeak I can't find but I suspect is the sway link, and so many vibrations. I can't stress this enough but this car has SO MUCH NVH it's maddening to drive normally. The cup holder shakes, the dash rattles, the seat squeaks, the steering has jumpy feedback, and the vehicle simply doesn't absorb road impacts. Nothing at all like one expects from a flagship car yet alone an air, LWB version. I would never just take this car for a cruise.
The 460 has an exceedingly solid, monolithic, isolated feeling that simply exudes confidence and reassurance. It's hard to describe but it's almost like the suspension doesn't exist? That the car is attached to the road directly, but at the same time not at all?.......it's very peculiar and I've never really felt a car quite like it before. It's not communicative at all but at the same time I know exactly where all my wheels are and what they are doing, it's not muted or "hand in 3 mitts trying to feel the road" or anything but just a pleasant however strange feeling of extremely solid isolation. Subjectively it's incredible since it's supremely quiet and smooth but still reacts the second I do anything. Nothing makes it to you that is unpleasant, it's almost as if the car has a filter of sorts that stonewalls anything unpleasant but allows driving info through. That's the best way I can describe it.
The 430 is the fun one, the sport type suspension is very reactive to surfaces but the inherent nature of the car is very soft and body roll prone, commands are on a delay from when you issue them. The car informs you very well what is going on but when you back off is still very smooth, the "filtering" effect of the 460 is not present but rather the phenomenon that occurs here is more akin to simply turning a volume **** down. Everything is still there but not as "loud" as when you are driving in anger, it allows things to calm down enough when cruising to be enjoyable but the second you want to play it's ready. Body roll is a persistent issue with this car however and individual wheel feedback is low, you can generally tell what each end of the car is doing but you can't reach out and feel the individual wheels like in the A8 or even the 460
Last edited by Striker223; Nov 4, 2021 at 06:51 PM.
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From: Ohio
Steering feel/responsiveness
This is a very predictable category if you have been paying any attention above lol!
The A8 is superb in this department, despite being an EPS car the A8 allows you to exactly know where you are, what the front wheels are doing, and responds to commands INSTANTLY. You want to be 3 lanes over? Done. You want to adjust your line 2/3 of the way through this 3x the speed limit turn 10 inches to the inside? Done. No drift, no drama, excellent on center calmness at extremely high speeds and no propensity to twitch about unless you are applying extreme power.....and that's just it letting you know EXACTY what the fronts are up to. Once again this sucks to cruise around with, mainly because the on center zone is relatively small and if you leave it the car will move that direction with immediacy. Huge NVH when not being driven hard vs the other two.
The 430 has an advantage over the other two in that it uses a hydro rack, once again similar to the suspension everything and I mean everything can be felt if you want to pay attention or are pushing hard. However that's about the only edge the old LS can claim, the steering is vague on center unless you are going 80+ and sometimes wanders even with 100% correct alignment and all new parts down to the rack bushings. I'm not 1000% certain but I am resting the blame with the lower control arm bushings being soft enough to allow deflection when encountering road irregularities unless loaded up at speed. Annoying and constantly makes me second guess tire PSI and alignment status. This issue of wandering center extends through the whole steering feedback experience, when under higher load it's great and direct but it's too forgiving to the point that it almost invites cruising only. Overall however I find it enjoyable to use.
The 460 also uses an EPS rack that I think moves the tires? Can't tell, the car does move in the direction I want it to but if you take my analogy of the suspension "filtering" out unwanted nastiness the steering does the same thing but has clearly decided the road is nasty and must go. The car does respond very quickly once you come off center but I'm giving most of credit for that to the suspension that I'm really quite impressed by. The center dead zone is the largest of the three cars but doesn't ever wander or do anything weird like the 430, a big plus in that regard. It's easy to cruise with and requires the lowest effort to drive of the three.
Smoothness/ride quality
This will be a "quick" section, I have included enough info about the cars already that detailed extrapolation of their individual behaviors should be simple to do. They do not deviate from their "theme" much.
The 430 is mostly smooth, doesn't "hide" anything but mostly just uniformly lowers the "volume" of unpleasant road occurrences. Interior noise is relatively high due to tires, the 06 is a tomb on wheels but it has very very quiet tires. The car will and does react to essentially everything you roll over, no filtering effect and you can easily chose to either pay attention to it or ignore it both are equally easily accomplished. The interior doesn't have anything move around or creak unless you go over some really bad roads and then you might get a door seal squeak and the defrost vent can chirp. Then again it has 231000 miles......
The A8 is.......well, bad. Jittery, shaky, and it feels like you have a set of 4, rock solidly attached to the pavement, confidence machines that are linked via hydraulic fluid to the NVH filled mess of a car body you sit in. It's just unpleasant, feels no different than a Passat or A6 really and once again everything moves around. Doesn't feel solid or monolithic whatsoever, and it's loud inside. Thoroughly gets its *** kicked by the 430 to say nothing of my favorite...
The 460 is freaking amazing. Literally can fall asleep diving, near silence, NOTHING vibrates or so much as dare squeak even over train tracks going 60 to try and compel something to utter a sound. I'm in awe at how good this car does for the mileage, wind noise fix has been done on this car. I can press on any panel, and nothing moves or makes any sounds. Contrast this to the A8 where if you set your arm down on the arm rests there is always a creak or pop and the whole center console moves if you press it with a knee. You can push, bodily on anything in the 460 and it's one solid object even if the seat isn't part of the door card ETC.
This is a very predictable category if you have been paying any attention above lol!
The A8 is superb in this department, despite being an EPS car the A8 allows you to exactly know where you are, what the front wheels are doing, and responds to commands INSTANTLY. You want to be 3 lanes over? Done. You want to adjust your line 2/3 of the way through this 3x the speed limit turn 10 inches to the inside? Done. No drift, no drama, excellent on center calmness at extremely high speeds and no propensity to twitch about unless you are applying extreme power.....and that's just it letting you know EXACTY what the fronts are up to. Once again this sucks to cruise around with, mainly because the on center zone is relatively small and if you leave it the car will move that direction with immediacy. Huge NVH when not being driven hard vs the other two.
The 430 has an advantage over the other two in that it uses a hydro rack, once again similar to the suspension everything and I mean everything can be felt if you want to pay attention or are pushing hard. However that's about the only edge the old LS can claim, the steering is vague on center unless you are going 80+ and sometimes wanders even with 100% correct alignment and all new parts down to the rack bushings. I'm not 1000% certain but I am resting the blame with the lower control arm bushings being soft enough to allow deflection when encountering road irregularities unless loaded up at speed. Annoying and constantly makes me second guess tire PSI and alignment status. This issue of wandering center extends through the whole steering feedback experience, when under higher load it's great and direct but it's too forgiving to the point that it almost invites cruising only. Overall however I find it enjoyable to use.
The 460 also uses an EPS rack that I think moves the tires? Can't tell, the car does move in the direction I want it to but if you take my analogy of the suspension "filtering" out unwanted nastiness the steering does the same thing but has clearly decided the road is nasty and must go. The car does respond very quickly once you come off center but I'm giving most of credit for that to the suspension that I'm really quite impressed by. The center dead zone is the largest of the three cars but doesn't ever wander or do anything weird like the 430, a big plus in that regard. It's easy to cruise with and requires the lowest effort to drive of the three.
Smoothness/ride quality
This will be a "quick" section, I have included enough info about the cars already that detailed extrapolation of their individual behaviors should be simple to do. They do not deviate from their "theme" much.
The 430 is mostly smooth, doesn't "hide" anything but mostly just uniformly lowers the "volume" of unpleasant road occurrences. Interior noise is relatively high due to tires, the 06 is a tomb on wheels but it has very very quiet tires. The car will and does react to essentially everything you roll over, no filtering effect and you can easily chose to either pay attention to it or ignore it both are equally easily accomplished. The interior doesn't have anything move around or creak unless you go over some really bad roads and then you might get a door seal squeak and the defrost vent can chirp. Then again it has 231000 miles......
The A8 is.......well, bad. Jittery, shaky, and it feels like you have a set of 4, rock solidly attached to the pavement, confidence machines that are linked via hydraulic fluid to the NVH filled mess of a car body you sit in. It's just unpleasant, feels no different than a Passat or A6 really and once again everything moves around. Doesn't feel solid or monolithic whatsoever, and it's loud inside. Thoroughly gets its *** kicked by the 430 to say nothing of my favorite...
The 460 is freaking amazing. Literally can fall asleep diving, near silence, NOTHING vibrates or so much as dare squeak even over train tracks going 60 to try and compel something to utter a sound. I'm in awe at how good this car does for the mileage, wind noise fix has been done on this car. I can press on any panel, and nothing moves or makes any sounds. Contrast this to the A8 where if you set your arm down on the arm rests there is always a creak or pop and the whole center console moves if you press it with a knee. You can push, bodily on anything in the 460 and it's one solid object even if the seat isn't part of the door card ETC.
Last edited by Striker223; Nov 4, 2021 at 06:56 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 18,346
Likes: 1,795
From: Ohio
Interior/exterior materials, gadgets, audio system quality, misc bits and bobs/random stuff I found interesting.
The A8 didn't really come with too much stuff, no real tool kit or anything noteworthy in terms of cargo management and overall severely lacks in places to put stuff. No real storage other than the enormous rear seat, the center console is barely deep enough to fit a phone. No I'm not joking on that. Interior uses real wood? At least that's what they tell me it is, looks like plastic to me......speaking of plastic dear god why so much gloss black. Kill it with fire, my sanity erodes every time I go for a drive since the polishing cloth just HAS to come out, without fail, no matter how careful I am.
The seats are supposed to be leather, they are very hard and really to be honest feel like vinyl to me, however the function of said seats is legitimately amazing. The massage is effective, the range of adjustment is PERFECT, the fact the seat cooler pulls through not pushes air is so much more effective, the auto inflation on hard corners is fast and accurate, and overall these are simply the best seats I have ever used. Perfect, almost. Keeping on theme with NVH the seat coolers are louder than the LS430 main fan on its highest speed. The wheel and little armrest compartment cover are a nice, real feeling leather though and I like that. Headliner is right out of a Jetta, this car has twin leak points....I mean sunroofs.
The rear seat has all the "peasant blockers" but their operation is integrated into the windows switches so it required longer than I want to admit to figure out how to use them. Rear seats are overly hard, pointlessly so in my opinion since anyone in the rear isn't driving and you usually won't perform maneuvers hard enough to disrupt rear passengers when you have rear passengers. There is a rear pass through, allows you to carry longer stuff like pipes or wood but I have no idea why you would in this, the trunk is fairly small and the powered opener/closer sometimes doesn't work and other times "jumps" and chirps. I'm just waiting for it break at this point.
The MMI screen and control system is nothing short of amazing! I can banish the screen into the dash so I don't have to look at it and IT IS NOT A TOUCH SCREEN. This is the single best feature on the entire car, you can have a perfectly clean screen at all times that resides out of sight where it belongs unless you are changing a car setting. Super easy to use without looking at all to change drive modes and adjust suspension. Nailed it.
Sound system is very average, can't really listen too long without fatigue and the ASL program is a joke with stepping so easy to hear I actually laughed when I tried it. Just leave it off the car instead of claiming you have a feature just to have it when it doesn't work, try a 430. It actually works seamlessly in there. The rest of the audio system is meh, soundstage isn't really good, imaging is nothing to note, I can't really write too much since it just is not that great. Sure my standards are probably insane (reference system that's about $100k) but come on, this is supposed to be a flagship. Wheel controls are okay, the roller wheels are prone to having to use a really fine input vs the larger buttons on the LSs. Overall feeling of all the buttons and controls is a very "about to snap in half" clicking feeling and sound that doesn't inspire long term confidence or inspire calm when operating. Think of someone who is typing loudly next to you and just grating on your nerves, that's what this type of switch feedback does to me.
Overall not a very impressive interior but very functional and effective, much better than an SRT car or ZL1 and that's what I would compare it to since this is clearly a performance car not a luxury car.
The LS430 has a wonderful spread of materials that have proven they withstand time and use, the chrome is real chrome that can be power polished to perfection if faded, the leather is real and feels like it, the cloth areas and carpet is thick and the headliner is still perfect. The wood is everywhere and I love just staring at it sometimes, the way it flows from doors to dash and draws your eyes along the cabin just does it for me. Every single point you touch is soft, controls are buffered and have a very distinct yet smooth feeling, the car shares almost nothing switches wise with other cars unlike the 460 that has a lot of parts bin syndrome going on. The glove boxes are huge, extremely pleasant to open or "snap" closed, and are well lit, lockable, and easy to get things out of relative to the other two. They are simply pleasing to operate, this theme extends to everything on a 430, even stupid little things you do every day feel legitimately special in this car. The wiper control stick is by far the best one I have ever used with "single wipe" being pull toward you an spray having its own button on the end. Little things like that just make the car so special, the little tool box in the trunk is probably the most obvious example of this effect IMO. "Are you stuck? Something broke? Don't worry! We have this nice little kit to try and lift your spirits!" That's what goes through my head when I see it, very well thought out of a car overall and no expense was spared with attention to detail. Does the 460 have a micro sun visor over the rear view mirror? NOPE! That's about par for the course moving from a 430 to 460, you miss out on a lot of little details and attention to user ergos but hey! It can park itself! That makes up for the cost cutting I'm sure since more features=better car. The audio system is very warm and natural, all types of music sound good to my ears but imaging and soundstage suffers from there being too much glass in the cabin. Still a very listenable experience with plenty of emotion, not a reference system but a very good "daily driver" IMO. Sound is very subjective so you may hate it but FOR ME it's a great system.
The shortest section I'm planing (and likely will fail) to write about is the 460, it's best described as a 430 that everything is a little cheaper, a little less well thought out, less effective storage options in the form of no easy place to put my phone, the ultra nifty sliding center console can jam on cords or items in the top tray, the glove box can't hold as much as the top box alone in a 430. Yeah I'm still trying to figure that out, old car I could fit a scanner, analogue tire gauge, wheel lock, four spare valve stem covers, all manuals, registration etc, one pen, a Glock 32c with TLR-1hl and three spare mags. The lower box was for my DB meter and CDs of the week The 460 struggles to hold just the upper box worth of items and requires everything to come out to do a filter.
There is also no good place to put my phone, I got used to putting it in the sliding tray in the 430 and the only place it fits in the 460 is in the ash tray with the actual tray removed. Works fine but I usually placed my keys in the ashtray so I have to keep them inside the console now. Front cup holders are far superior, best out of all the cars. Rears are okay but lose to the 430 since that car doesn't have anything in the rear so it has the advantage of the big ones. The 460 and A8 have the "framework" style, the 460 is adequate but the A8s snapped off when I put my usual drink in it. That was an annoying waste of $50.
The touch screen doesn't really get smeared if you keep your hands clean, the setting menu was easy to use and the full maintenance log menu is just like the Sequoia and is a massive boon for someone like me who does all that themselves, nothing gets forgotten with that system. The MPG readout is a joke, the sliding bar from 0-90 mpg is nearly useless vs the 430 reading out XX.X giving actual feedback, I much prefer the cluster in that car, ditto with the HVAC system. It's much quieter, easily adjustable, and quick to use vs being forced to use a screen for manual override of auto mode, it is very accurate though and raw heat and cold output is very good. If the 430 is a 10/10 HVAC system the 460 is a 8.75/10 and the A8 is a 4/10 due to it being loud, inaccurate, and annoying overall to use. The vents do not adjust as "hydraulically" in the 460 as the 430 but they are still damped, tight, and smooth the A8 feels like a Jetta.
The seats are a cross between the two other cars, more functional than a 430 but nowhere near as "let go pull 1.0g while getting a massage" as the A8. The memory (and trunk/fuel door) buttons are pure parts bin from other Lexus cars. Plenty of adjustment and adequate bolstering, good leather feel as well.
Audio. I feel that I may have made a serious mistake. My god this is a good system, and I didn't get ML.......man I think I screwed up big there. This is without a doubt the 2nd best system I have ever heard in a car and is good enough to contend with a low end (sub $15,000) floor-standing system in some cases. I was getting chills for song after song after song, phenomenal. The system is actually good enough to easily discern track/album mastery and resolution, and when combined with the serene silence of the car is an experience for sure. I'm actually deeply impressed and was not expecting this at all, I now really think I messed up by not getting ML. Entire genres of music I normally don't listen to in cars (vocal, jazz, acapella) is actually very very good to enjoy with this system. Again if there is one thing this car impressed me we with above all its the audio system and silence of the ride. The unique ride characteristics that I am enjoying so much don't even take away that 1st place award from how astonished I was when I put my testing CDs in. I totally am convinced now that the "reference" tag on the ML system might actually be worthy of declaring it a "reference" class system if not just for a car borne system.
If I had to sum all this up I'll just say this. The 460 is more than the sum of its trim and parts, it comes together as a fantastic, enduring, experience that has few rivals in the automotive world. It's my favorite of the group of 4 flagships I have access to/own even if it's not the fastest or the most technically impressive/detailed.
The A8 didn't really come with too much stuff, no real tool kit or anything noteworthy in terms of cargo management and overall severely lacks in places to put stuff. No real storage other than the enormous rear seat, the center console is barely deep enough to fit a phone. No I'm not joking on that. Interior uses real wood? At least that's what they tell me it is, looks like plastic to me......speaking of plastic dear god why so much gloss black. Kill it with fire, my sanity erodes every time I go for a drive since the polishing cloth just HAS to come out, without fail, no matter how careful I am.
The seats are supposed to be leather, they are very hard and really to be honest feel like vinyl to me, however the function of said seats is legitimately amazing. The massage is effective, the range of adjustment is PERFECT, the fact the seat cooler pulls through not pushes air is so much more effective, the auto inflation on hard corners is fast and accurate, and overall these are simply the best seats I have ever used. Perfect, almost. Keeping on theme with NVH the seat coolers are louder than the LS430 main fan on its highest speed. The wheel and little armrest compartment cover are a nice, real feeling leather though and I like that. Headliner is right out of a Jetta, this car has twin leak points....I mean sunroofs.
The rear seat has all the "peasant blockers" but their operation is integrated into the windows switches so it required longer than I want to admit to figure out how to use them. Rear seats are overly hard, pointlessly so in my opinion since anyone in the rear isn't driving and you usually won't perform maneuvers hard enough to disrupt rear passengers when you have rear passengers. There is a rear pass through, allows you to carry longer stuff like pipes or wood but I have no idea why you would in this, the trunk is fairly small and the powered opener/closer sometimes doesn't work and other times "jumps" and chirps. I'm just waiting for it break at this point.
The MMI screen and control system is nothing short of amazing! I can banish the screen into the dash so I don't have to look at it and IT IS NOT A TOUCH SCREEN. This is the single best feature on the entire car, you can have a perfectly clean screen at all times that resides out of sight where it belongs unless you are changing a car setting. Super easy to use without looking at all to change drive modes and adjust suspension. Nailed it.
Sound system is very average, can't really listen too long without fatigue and the ASL program is a joke with stepping so easy to hear I actually laughed when I tried it. Just leave it off the car instead of claiming you have a feature just to have it when it doesn't work, try a 430. It actually works seamlessly in there. The rest of the audio system is meh, soundstage isn't really good, imaging is nothing to note, I can't really write too much since it just is not that great. Sure my standards are probably insane (reference system that's about $100k) but come on, this is supposed to be a flagship. Wheel controls are okay, the roller wheels are prone to having to use a really fine input vs the larger buttons on the LSs. Overall feeling of all the buttons and controls is a very "about to snap in half" clicking feeling and sound that doesn't inspire long term confidence or inspire calm when operating. Think of someone who is typing loudly next to you and just grating on your nerves, that's what this type of switch feedback does to me.
Overall not a very impressive interior but very functional and effective, much better than an SRT car or ZL1 and that's what I would compare it to since this is clearly a performance car not a luxury car.
The LS430 has a wonderful spread of materials that have proven they withstand time and use, the chrome is real chrome that can be power polished to perfection if faded, the leather is real and feels like it, the cloth areas and carpet is thick and the headliner is still perfect. The wood is everywhere and I love just staring at it sometimes, the way it flows from doors to dash and draws your eyes along the cabin just does it for me. Every single point you touch is soft, controls are buffered and have a very distinct yet smooth feeling, the car shares almost nothing switches wise with other cars unlike the 460 that has a lot of parts bin syndrome going on. The glove boxes are huge, extremely pleasant to open or "snap" closed, and are well lit, lockable, and easy to get things out of relative to the other two. They are simply pleasing to operate, this theme extends to everything on a 430, even stupid little things you do every day feel legitimately special in this car. The wiper control stick is by far the best one I have ever used with "single wipe" being pull toward you an spray having its own button on the end. Little things like that just make the car so special, the little tool box in the trunk is probably the most obvious example of this effect IMO. "Are you stuck? Something broke? Don't worry! We have this nice little kit to try and lift your spirits!" That's what goes through my head when I see it, very well thought out of a car overall and no expense was spared with attention to detail. Does the 460 have a micro sun visor over the rear view mirror? NOPE! That's about par for the course moving from a 430 to 460, you miss out on a lot of little details and attention to user ergos but hey! It can park itself! That makes up for the cost cutting I'm sure since more features=better car. The audio system is very warm and natural, all types of music sound good to my ears but imaging and soundstage suffers from there being too much glass in the cabin. Still a very listenable experience with plenty of emotion, not a reference system but a very good "daily driver" IMO. Sound is very subjective so you may hate it but FOR ME it's a great system.
The shortest section I'm planing (and likely will fail) to write about is the 460, it's best described as a 430 that everything is a little cheaper, a little less well thought out, less effective storage options in the form of no easy place to put my phone, the ultra nifty sliding center console can jam on cords or items in the top tray, the glove box can't hold as much as the top box alone in a 430. Yeah I'm still trying to figure that out, old car I could fit a scanner, analogue tire gauge, wheel lock, four spare valve stem covers, all manuals, registration etc, one pen, a Glock 32c with TLR-1hl and three spare mags. The lower box was for my DB meter and CDs of the week The 460 struggles to hold just the upper box worth of items and requires everything to come out to do a filter.
There is also no good place to put my phone, I got used to putting it in the sliding tray in the 430 and the only place it fits in the 460 is in the ash tray with the actual tray removed. Works fine but I usually placed my keys in the ashtray so I have to keep them inside the console now. Front cup holders are far superior, best out of all the cars. Rears are okay but lose to the 430 since that car doesn't have anything in the rear so it has the advantage of the big ones. The 460 and A8 have the "framework" style, the 460 is adequate but the A8s snapped off when I put my usual drink in it. That was an annoying waste of $50.
The touch screen doesn't really get smeared if you keep your hands clean, the setting menu was easy to use and the full maintenance log menu is just like the Sequoia and is a massive boon for someone like me who does all that themselves, nothing gets forgotten with that system. The MPG readout is a joke, the sliding bar from 0-90 mpg is nearly useless vs the 430 reading out XX.X giving actual feedback, I much prefer the cluster in that car, ditto with the HVAC system. It's much quieter, easily adjustable, and quick to use vs being forced to use a screen for manual override of auto mode, it is very accurate though and raw heat and cold output is very good. If the 430 is a 10/10 HVAC system the 460 is a 8.75/10 and the A8 is a 4/10 due to it being loud, inaccurate, and annoying overall to use. The vents do not adjust as "hydraulically" in the 460 as the 430 but they are still damped, tight, and smooth the A8 feels like a Jetta.
The seats are a cross between the two other cars, more functional than a 430 but nowhere near as "let go pull 1.0g while getting a massage" as the A8. The memory (and trunk/fuel door) buttons are pure parts bin from other Lexus cars. Plenty of adjustment and adequate bolstering, good leather feel as well.
Audio. I feel that I may have made a serious mistake. My god this is a good system, and I didn't get ML.......man I think I screwed up big there. This is without a doubt the 2nd best system I have ever heard in a car and is good enough to contend with a low end (sub $15,000) floor-standing system in some cases. I was getting chills for song after song after song, phenomenal. The system is actually good enough to easily discern track/album mastery and resolution, and when combined with the serene silence of the car is an experience for sure. I'm actually deeply impressed and was not expecting this at all, I now really think I messed up by not getting ML. Entire genres of music I normally don't listen to in cars (vocal, jazz, acapella) is actually very very good to enjoy with this system. Again if there is one thing this car impressed me we with above all its the audio system and silence of the ride. The unique ride characteristics that I am enjoying so much don't even take away that 1st place award from how astonished I was when I put my testing CDs in. I totally am convinced now that the "reference" tag on the ML system might actually be worthy of declaring it a "reference" class system if not just for a car borne system.
If I had to sum all this up I'll just say this. The 460 is more than the sum of its trim and parts, it comes together as a fantastic, enduring, experience that has few rivals in the automotive world. It's my favorite of the group of 4 flagships I have access to/own even if it's not the fastest or the most technically impressive/detailed.
Last edited by Striker223; Oct 30, 2021 at 10:21 PM.
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I always get such a kick out of people who were so firmly anti 460 getting a 460 and realizing why we always found anti-460 guys so amusing lol.
Its a much better car than the 430. More complex yes but better. I think you said it yourself, its like a Japanese Mercedes. And having had an S Class now too thats totally true. So, ya gotta replace some control arms. Big deal lol
Its a much better car than the 430. More complex yes but better. I think you said it yourself, its like a Japanese Mercedes. And having had an S Class now too thats totally true. So, ya gotta replace some control arms. Big deal lol
Last edited by SW17LS; Oct 30, 2021 at 08:54 PM.
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I always get such a kick out of people who were so firmly anti 460 getting a 460 and realizing why we always found anti-460 guys so amusing lol.
Its a much better car than the 430. More complex yes but better. I think you said it yourself, its like a Japanese Mercedes. And having had an S Class now too thats totally true. So, ya gotta replace some control arms. Big deal lol
Its a much better car than the 430. More complex yes but better. I think you said it yourself, its like a Japanese Mercedes. And having had an S Class now too thats totally true. So, ya gotta replace some control arms. Big deal lol
I couldn't care less about some control arms if it gets me this type of ride. It blows the A8 out of the water for refinement! I have a really bad feeling I may follow you to Mercedes when it's time for me to move up from my 460, it's that or a Bentley to be honest. There really are not many cars above the 460 I'm finding, it's a hard choice where to go from here but S-Class seems like a clear answer.
However a 12 cyl would also be nice.....
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I agree, FAR better as a car if not necessarily as a engineering exercise/concept.
I couldn't care less about some control arms if it gets me this type of ride. It blows the A8 out of the water for refinement! I have a really bad feeling I may follow you to Mercedes when it's time for me to move up from my 460, it's that or a Bentley to be honest. There really are not many cars above the 460 I'm finding, it's a hard choice where to go from here but S-Class seems like a clear answer.
I couldn't care less about some control arms if it gets me this type of ride. It blows the A8 out of the water for refinement! I have a really bad feeling I may follow you to Mercedes when it's time for me to move up from my 460, it's that or a Bentley to be honest. There really are not many cars above the 460 I'm finding, it's a hard choice where to go from here but S-Class seems like a clear answer.
Here's the think about the Mercedes too, if it weren't for the fact that the 500 is such a different car there wouldn't be a need to upgrade to the S Class. Your next upgrade should be to a good 13-17 LWB model. From a drive perspective, the 4LS holds up even to my W222 S Class. Its the technology and lack of availability new thats the issue.
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Yep, exactly! The multi-link suspension setup is just much better...
Here's the think about the Mercedes too, if it weren't for the fact that the 500 is such a different car there wouldn't be a need to upgrade to the S Class. Your next upgrade should be to a good 13-17 LWB model. From a drive perspective, the 4LS holds up even to my W222 S Class. Its the technology and lack of availability new thats the issue.
Here's the think about the Mercedes too, if it weren't for the fact that the 500 is such a different car there wouldn't be a need to upgrade to the S Class. Your next upgrade should be to a good 13-17 LWB model. From a drive perspective, the 4LS holds up even to my W222 S Class. Its the technology and lack of availability new thats the issue.
The 500 was a major disappointment, I love how they did the top end interiors but the driveline and suspension just kills the experience for me. I would consider it if they offered a V8 but as it sits I would much sooner go the same route you did once I "run out" of good 460s.
I am seriously thinning about a Bentley though since purchase price is relatively low and they did make a version starting in 14 with the Audi 4.0 engine that I've had a good time with, I see it as a way to get one of the very top automotive interiors and rides without having to constantly drop the engine for work.
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I get where you are coming from with Bentley, I would try and find a subdued spec of the Flying spur and remove most of the exterior badging since I feel it's very redundant on a car like that. Some of their models are way too over the top both inside and out
Last edited by Striker223; Oct 31, 2021 at 02:02 PM.
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Raced a buddy of mine who has a 2019 charger 5.7 with basic stuff, somehow I won each pull.
We did 50-130 since I can't go faster as it sits and each time I pulled 1/2 a car length and held it till I hit limiter. I'm not sure how since on paper his car is faster than mine
We did 50-130 since I can't go faster as it sits and each time I pulled 1/2 a car length and held it till I hit limiter. I'm not sure how since on paper his car is faster than mine
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