How much is the LS worth.. I mean.. see what the depreciation is for the next 3-4 years on both cars. More than likely the ES350 is more, but at least calculate it.

If the LS is going to drop $30k vs a new ES dropping $25k... I would say ES would be the better deal if you are trying to save $$$.

In some cases, keeping the used car isn't the best option. All my opinion, of course....

 

Right now, it looks like the '11 LS is a $25-$30k car. In 5 years, it will still be worth somewhere between $10-$15k, so you're looking at about $15k depreciation. The ES appears to be $45-$50k right now and will most likely be $15-$20k in 5 years, which makes the depreciation $30k. To me this is a no brainer.

 

I agree with what others are saying. Even if you overpaid and financed at a bad interest rate you would be better off saving some cash to throw at the principal and refinance the loan vs rolling the negative equity into a ES lease. You can join PenFed for $5 and they offer very competive financing options. USAA is another great credit union if you qualify.

 

My impression after reading it is he says he "entered" into the 2011 upside down. This likely means he was upside down on a previous car (or two) and rolled that into the LS. If he has a high(er) interest rate on the LS, the problem gets exponentially worse. I have seen this mistake too many times with my friends earlier in life.

I 100% agree with the person who was suggesting to get a Toyota or Honda for a few years (sounds like he may listen to Dave Ramsey as well). You'll bring the negative LS equity over, but you will have substantially lower payments and therefore have more free monthly cash flow. If you're saving $200/month, the smart thing to do is throw that $200/month towards the Toyota/Honda car payment to accelerate your ability to "break even" (pay off your negative equity). You also may save a little money over the course of each year in service costs (lower labor rate, cheaper parts). In my opinion the absolute worst thing you could do is consider a lease or any type of new luxury car at this point. You have negative equity and won't own anything at the end of the lease...and if you decided to buy out the lease, you've just overpaid for an ES due to your LS negative equity and likely paying a high starting price that they based your lease payments off of.
EDIT: what I would consider is to find a car less than 5 years old (which gives you the best interest rate from banks) and try to buy something around $15k or less. An Accord or Camry would fit that bill easily and you can quickly make your situation a lot better. Even if you put nothing down you'd be looking at no more than $300/mo, hopefully less.

In my humble opinion, time to take a little medicine here and get rid of your LS, get into something affordable and reliable for a few years and "right" your situation. Don't make the problem worse by looking at new luxury cars. It looks like you're in FL - if you want to consider selling your LS, PM me the details of it as I am semi-seriously kicking tires and may be interested (I'm being serious).

 

still not sure on everyone's advice, he can afford the payment so just keep the LS for another 2-3 years and your negative equity will Balance out, why drive a lessor car, it's different if you can't afford the payment, then dump the car for a cheaper one

 

It seems to me he was considering the lease idea of a 350 because it would lower his payments.... Everyone views this differently, but if I were in the situation I would want to get out of the negative equity position as fast as humanly possible. The only way to do that is throw more at your monthly payment. Without knowing his financial situation and how upside down he really is, most likely the fastest way to achieve that is to ditch the 460 for a cheaper car with a lower payment, but continue paying the same amount as if you had your LS. Either that or keep your LS and add $200-$400/month to the payment and hope you get out of the negative spot in 12-24 months.

Regardless, looking at a new car makes absolutely no sense given his situation (my opinion). Just yesterday someone on this forum and I were trading PM's about a different topic and he had a great line. "Never be in a hurry to buy a depreciating asset."

 

Time cures these sorts of things. He has a fixed term loan now that he can afford. A couple of years from now he will no longer be upside down. I don't see any reason to make any changes right now simply because he is currently upside down.

 

Agreed on all who say to keep it. As I had to have the brake actuator replaced, I had a brand new RX350 (thank goodness it was not the CVT equipped 400h which I really do not like aside from only the RX "h" models being built in Japan) for about a week and never have I been more impatient to get my car back.

I had a ES350 loaner for a weekend when I took my car in for an oil change and most of the 90k Service because I was too lazy to bring the loaner back as they told me it was ready around 5:30 on a Friday and the traffic was patently absurd on that particular day. Between the FWD platform and honestly the whole experience, it is a rather large downgrade as it to be expected considering the delta in pricing.

For reasons I will never agree or understand, my father purchased a maxed out ES300h that cost in excess of $50,000 before TTL in spite of both myself and my older brother imploring him not to. While the ES is a solid car, when spending around $60,000 out the door, it pains me to even contemplate doing so.

 

I was in a similar boat a couple years ago...thought maybe I should get out of the LS and get into the more "practical" ES.

I thought about this for a couple reasons...one I drive a lot, a real lot, so I figured I'd save on fuel (regular vs super, plus a little better mileage). The other was repairs, I figured parts would be cheaper on the ES with it basically being a V6 Camry...plus that 3.5 engine/drivetrain is pretty damn reliable if you take care of it. And I actually love the way the newer ES 350's look, inside and out. Then I test drove one...wow, hated it compared to the LS. The power just wasn't there, which really surprised me because I've driven a few of the V6 Camrys and they seemed at least peppy, if not fast. But the ES? It just had nothing - I don't know if it's because it's a bigger car or what, but I turned to the salesman and said, what the hell is wrong with this car? It's got nothing, it feels like a four cylinder. He said, yeah they do, perhaps you'd be better off with the GS. And that was about it for me...back to my LS I went...been happy ever since. It's going to be hard leaving the LS line, if I ever do...I'm spoiled now.

 

If your dad spent around $60,000 out the door for a loaded ES300h he got totally screwed. They max out around 50, 10% off is easily attainable so that's $45k. Even if he paid sticker taxes and tags aren't $10k.

Let's not make the ES or to be costlier than it is, it's a fine car for what it costs. Of course the LS is a much better car, you could buy two ESs for the cost of one.

 

In Tennessee sales tax on cars is 7% which is a rather large part of it being so high. It was a custom order without an option left unchecked. Hate the bloody thing and while I do not know down to the penny what was paid, it was close and in cash.

 

Sales tax here is 6%, Anyways 7% of $50,000 is $3,500. $53,500 is not "almost $60,000". If he bought warranties and all and paint sealants and stuff that's on him, that's not a reflection of the cost of the vehicle.

Point is the ES is a 40k-50k vehicle, and in that range it's a fine offering. Find another sedan you can buy for $45k loaded up with that much size, comfort, style and refinement. It's a great entry level sedan, way better than being in some tiny low optioned 3 series or A4 IMHO.

Point is would I trade an older well running LS on a new ES? No. Would I buy a new ES to save $40,000 and $5-600 a month on a lease over a new LS? Sure, and I did twice at different times in my life and they were great cars for that value.

 

This is getting trifling. He preordered it and if memory serves the sticker price was $52,000. And indeed he got something of a discount, but not much of one as at the time it was seemingly quite desirable to some. So yes, maybe it was $55,000 or $56,000, but this was not meant neither as hyperbole nor boast. Rather disgust.

And while I do not mind the ES350, between the CVT and and how bloody slow it is, to spend in excess of $50,000 on it is a farce to me.

 

The issue is that at CL we have an issue with owners of different models and different generations back-biting each other. If we get frustrated here by LS430 owners for instance posting things that just aren't true, or exaggerations, such as "the LS460 has many serious reliability problems", we can't be guilty of the same thing. The ES300h starts at $42,815. Fully loaded its $51,270. It is not "nearly $60,000". Thats like me saying my $80,000 LS460 was "nearly $90,000". It wasn't.

The hybrid thing doesn't do it for me, but people like them and thats why its nice to have options.

Bottom line is, if you look at what a loaded ES350 costs $49,230. When you look at what else you can buy for that money, if you want a basically full size luxury sedan the ES is a good value. Its going to look more expensive than it is, most people can't tell the difference between the ES and our LS, like I said you can get 10% off of one easy, its a $500/mo lease with nothing out of pocket. Thats why they sell so well...

 

When next I speak to my father, I will go ahead and ask him exactly what he paid for the 300h. I do know it was well excess of $50,000 and I do seem to remember the window sticker being around $54,000. This jives with Edumunds showing a 300h with every option stickering for $53,409 with a TMV of $49,056.

So while say it ended up being around $55,000 after tax, tags, etc, I just still do not find it hyperbole to say it was close to $60,000. Even at $53,000, I still find it an absurd amount to pay for any ES model.

In addition, I do not quite see the correlation between people bashing the 460 being analogous to a $50,000 plus ES being a crazy amount to pay. While it no doubt would be easy to get 10% off on a 2016 LS considering it is a model that depending on your interpretation being out for either 3 years (2013 refresh) or 9 years (the span of the LS460), the ES300h was a highly anticipated model at the time of its introduction and was an all new model.

At minimum, for the same money, he could have gotten into a very nice new GS. Heck, he does not even like it and has since ordered a Tesla. Regardless, while I respect that you consider it to be "exaggeration or "not true" that I said it was close to $60,000, being all but positive it was in the mid 50's (and saying it was close to $60k) is different than saying something which cost $80,000 out the door is $90,000.

I truly do respect your opinion and as someone who once moderated a rather large home theater forum, I get where you are coming from. I will go ahead find out exactly what the car ended up costing tomorrow and report back. If mistaken and the car only ended up costing him $50k out the door, I will absolutely acknowledge my "exaggeration"