NickTee

That's another testament to the S-class' popularity. Despite having an MSRP that is over double that of the XTS ($45,295 vs $95,650), it's still managed to sell at nearly identical numbers.

Doublebase

No I didn't realize that, but superdenso posted the numbers against comparable vehicles and the LS460 is downright putrid. And I imagine the A8 sales were even worse than the LS because of the A7.

And we all know how it compares in performance tests.

Personally I think the newer 460's are fine cars, but "fine", just doesn't cut the mustard in sales and performance. Reliability is what I care about, but others sure don't.

SW17LS

The XTS doesn't really belong in this list, a lot of those sales are also fleet sales...

But yeah, the S Class does well. Even it doesn't sell like it used to though. This entire segment is not what it once was.

Sales of the #3 car in the segment are "putrid"? What would you call the A8 or the XJ? Ridiculously terrible? The LS traded back and forth even #2 in the segment until the 2016 7 came out. The A7 isn't in this class.

Its all relative...sales of the LS are not "putrid", its actually quite something that it still sells as well as it does as old as it is. This segment just isn't what it used to be. Find another car that is essentially 10 years old and is still #3 in its segment.

Doublebase

It's 4th on that list with roughly 7,000 units sold, Mercedes sold three times as many S class units. BMW is ahead of Lexus and Audi has both the A8 and the A7 (the A7 may not be in the "large luxury" car segment, but it's certainly responsible for dropping the A8 down, or it would likely be ahead of the LS as well). And the Cadillac, despite you calling it a fleet option, is still way way ahead in terms of units sold. So the LS - in my opinion is putrid in terms of sales and interest right now. It's an after thought, it has been passed over. It deserves to regain its place amongst the heavy hitters in its class. The new LS should do that.

It comes down to Lexus, Mercedes, BMW...we finished last in that department. I don't know how much worse than last, you can be.

superdenso

The LS sales volume in the US is passible; the worldwide sales are weak.
1. Cadillac XTS - 23,112
2. Mercedes S - 21,934
3. BMW7 - 9,292
4. BMW6 - 8,146 (includes 2door)
5. Audi A7- 7,721
6. Lexus LS - 7,165
7. CLS-5152
8. A8 - 4,990


In total US sales 2015 the Lexus brand is #2
1) BMW - 346,023 - up 1.8 percent
2) Lexus - 344,601 - up 10.7 percent
3) Mercedes-Benz - 343,088 - up 3.8 percent
4) Audi - 202,202 - up 11.1 percent
5) Acura - 177,165 - up 5.6 percent
6) Cadillac - 175,267 - up 2.6 percent
7) Infiniti - 133,498 - up 13.8 percent
8) Lincoln - 101,227 - up 7.1 percent
9)Land Rover - 70,582 - up 37 percent
10) Volvo - 70,047 - up 24.3 percent
11) Porsche - 51,756 - up 10.1 percent
12) Jaguar - 14,466 - down 8 percent
13) Maserati - 11,697 - down 9.6 percent
14) Bentley - 2,686 - down 10.6 percent
15) Rolls-Royce - 1,140 - up 2.6 percent
http://www.businessinsider.com/bmw-s...edium=referral

SW17LS

The XTS doesn't belong in this list. Its FWD, nearly half the price to start of the rest of these cars. It makes it on size, but its not a comparable vehicle.

The flaw in your logic is to look at A8 sales.This is worldwide A8 production:



This is US sales:



Where is the dip that corresponds with the launch of the A7 in 2010? There isn't one...the A7 is not taking sales from the A8. Like I said, these 4 door coupe cars like the A7, CLS, 6 Series, etc aren't taking buyers away from the large luxury class, they've created another subclass. For large luxury sedan buyers these cars aren't big enough by a wide margin.

Success is not a zero sum game. Lexus doesn't have to be #1 to be successful, and historically the LS has not been #1. Yes the car needs to be refreshed, and it will be next year but don't overstate the issue. Lexus continues to compete in the US just fine with the current LS.

Doublebase

I guess it just depends on how you look at it...historically it's a three car race...the S class, the 7 series and the LS. The LS is dead last in sales and performance. I imagine that doesn't sit well with Lexus. I remember when they released the first LS460 in 07 - they held the press event on BMW's front lawn - nowadays the LS is buried in the back of Lexus showrooms, with big "reductions" or "sale" signs unceremonestly scribbled on their windshields. No one asks, what is that, or, I want one.

I personally like the car, but last is last. It's been passed by...it's an after thought.

SW17LS

Thats your bias working. Its not a 3 way race...what about the A8? What about the Xj? what about the Equus? The XJ has been around forever, way longer than the LS, why is it not included "historically"? Its a 6 car segment, S Class, 7, LS, A8 XJ and Equus. The LS is #3, middle of the pack not "dead last". The LS has been in this sales position most of the time it has existed.

If Lexus were that worried about it...we would have seen an all new LS in 2013. They chose to focus elsewhere. Like I said, the segment as a whole is not what it used to be.

Its not an afterthought. Is the A8 an afterthought?

Rhambler

Strangely, and maybe I'm an outlier here, I was very close to getting the A7 myself. In fact, I was on my way to get it when I stopped by the Lexus dealership. I wanted it simply because of the hatchback as it was roomy back there. The only reason both of those cars were in consideration because they were priced the same. $76k more or less.

Yes, they are totally different, drive differently, but one garnered more of my emotional side and thankfully, sensibility prevailed! Lexus won! Again, it was the price point that put these cars side-by-side for me and the prospects of sitting in the Audi dealership five year's from now kept me away. Carbon buildup, walnut shell blasting, no thanks.

Could I afford a $100k car? Probably, but I wouldn't ever considering stepping into a Mercedes S to not only pay more upfront now but way more later on too.

That's why I honestly think the next LS will be much more expensive. There's just something psychological when it comes to people with this much disposable income who are catered to by this class of vehicle (for the most part). I really don't fit into that category at all mind you, but when you spend that much for a car they think to themselves, hey, this costs more, people know it costs more and hence, they will think I'm even richer driving this car around. Yeah it's kind of shallow sadly, but that's people for you. I'm not saying everyone is like that, but it's just human nature whether you are driving in one or see one. Having that near $100k cachet carries with it a lot more even if the car isn't a lot more.

So, more expensive LS here we come!

SW17LS

Did you consider the A8?

Rhambler

No I did not. At all. It was A7 (emotion) and Lexus LS 460 (sensibility).

Frankly, I honestly don't think Lexus wants or desires to cater me. I am kind of an outlier. I have a very good job, not ultra rich and I like to drive my cars for ten years. Otherwise, they would sell more.

Their spindle grills, edgier styles are all attempts to polarize their cars. Love them or hate them, they want that emotion. With a higher price point, they are chasing up the affluent ladder. These rich people want other people to know they're rich. Lexus use to have this, it was fairly expensive for its time, but like the RL, it stagnated in price while the others kept going higher and higher. The rich customers kept moving up, while these cars didn't, at least in terms of cost. That psychological $$ rift between the LS and S got bigger.

Hey, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Heck, keeping the price down or lower allows me to drive one comfortably and not everyone can afford this car. But that upper 10% keeps getting richer and richer. Lexus will raise that price. I honestly think they have to and I'm sure they will. Hey, I'm not complaining, we will benefit off that halo.

Hey, thought of a good term for all of this: vanity factor!

superdenso

The XTS is available in the US at a discount. Buy one across the pond and that XTS price gently eclipses the s-class. In China, Cadillac sold 32,390 XTS units, while Lexus sold 0 LS's. The XTS China pricing is $55,000US to $87,000US (equals 570,000 yuan). And then there is the returning champ: "Lincoln Continental".
http://www.thecarconnection.com/over...illac_xts_2014

XTS handling review: 63.9mph slalom
http://www.edmunds.com/cadillac/xts/...oad-test1.html

F-sport handling review: 61.7mph slalom
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...50i-sport.html


*3 Equus concerns: Hyundai unloads 3,000 Equus per year; It doesn't sell well; and Hyundai is not a luxury car company.
No Mercs/BMW/Audis on this list
http://comparecamp.com/10-most-affor...cious-drivers/

G Star

iTrader: (2)

Can't wait for the LS

bostonsnow

any further news on this?
is the 2017 truly the full redesign?
when is it due out?

SW17LS

The 17 will be a carryover. The 18 will be the new car.