LS460 Wind Noise Fix (continued discussion)
05-27-10, 10:51 PM
#706
I just put a deposit down on a 07 LS460L exec today...love it! only problem is it has the wind noise. Not super prominent, but it's there. Do I even attempt the TSB with the dealer, or go directly to the jmcraney fix?
05-27-10, 11:16 PM
#707
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Well, as many of you read in my previous posts I have this annoying whistling sound coming from my driver's side mirror at highway speeds and when I pull the mirror in there is no whistling. It was driving me nuts so today I was very pleased with how Lexus of Plesanton took a positive first step in keeping me happy.
My service manager suggested that I take a drive with a tech and we did so. I had him drive and asked him to get on the freeway and drive at about 70. It was a very faint noise (sometimes its worse than other times) so I had him roll down the window and it was much more noticeable with the window down. While it wasn't very loud today, he agreed that he could hear it.
So, he goes back and tells the service manager that Lexus should do what they can to keep me happy. After I jump in my loaner Lexus I receive a call from the service manager saying that they would be installing new mirrors to see if this corrects the problem. Now that is service and I am hopeful that this will correct my problem....I will share the results when I pickup the car later tomorrow. I am happy to see that some Lexus dealers indeed put their customers first.
Stay tuned...
My service manager suggested that I take a drive with a tech and we did so. I had him drive and asked him to get on the freeway and drive at about 70. It was a very faint noise (sometimes its worse than other times) so I had him roll down the window and it was much more noticeable with the window down. While it wasn't very loud today, he agreed that he could hear it.
So, he goes back and tells the service manager that Lexus should do what they can to keep me happy. After I jump in my loaner Lexus I receive a call from the service manager saying that they would be installing new mirrors to see if this corrects the problem. Now that is service and I am hopeful that this will correct my problem....I will share the results when I pickup the car later tomorrow. I am happy to see that some Lexus dealers indeed put their customers first.
Stay tuned...
05-28-10, 07:31 AM
#708
Driver School Candidate
Hello all. Just bought a nicely maintained '07 LS460 -- my first Lexus -- and thus joined this board. My car has more wind noise than I expected (more than the '02 745i it replaced), and my LS is still under warranty, so I took it to my local Lexus dealer to get TSIB NV009-07 done.
Well I got a call from the dealer not long after dropping it off, and they said the car was "within spec" and they wouldn't do it. Furthermore the service rep angrily lectured me for asking them to do a specific TSIB! What gives? Do all dealers treat their customers this shabbily?
Do I have any recourse for getting this TSIB done? It's obvious the car hasn't had it done. No laminated glass, etc.
TIA
Well I got a call from the dealer not long after dropping it off, and they said the car was "within spec" and they wouldn't do it. Furthermore the service rep angrily lectured me for asking them to do a specific TSIB! What gives? Do all dealers treat their customers this shabbily?
Do I have any recourse for getting this TSIB done? It's obvious the car hasn't had it done. No laminated glass, etc.
TIA
05-28-10, 08:02 AM
#709
Driver School Candidate
I had the same problem and took my car to lexus of Orlando and the were very helpful. They did all the TSIBS but it didn't help much. I would try another dealer. Did you try the JMCraney triangle fix yet?
05-28-10, 08:21 AM
#710
Driver School Candidate
I bumped it up to the service manager at the first dealer, but he wouldn't budge. Is there an "official" way to get the issue mediated through the corporate office?
My old 745i had many problems, and I was glad to be rid of it, but I can honestly say the dealer was always willing to listen, and always applied the service bulletins if I asked. I was quite surprised by the reaction I got from my Lexus dealer's service department. The were defensive about it from the moment I said "hello".
05-28-10, 08:53 AM
#711
Don't despair! Most of the cars can be repaired with a simple DIY fix. The cars are exceptionally quiet when they are adequately repaired. This discussion has become quiet long and it is difficult to figure out how to do the DIY repair because so much has been said. I will try to find time in the next two weeks to start a new thread to consolidate my suggestions for repairing the triangle trim. If you have some urgency to do your repair sooner, you can contact me through the Private Message feature on this site and I will try to help you via some emails.
05-28-10, 03:03 PM
#712
jmcraney: please make us step by step instructions into a PDF - like for beginners to even do it!!! It would help so much.
05-28-10, 04:21 PM
#713
...........
Well I got a call from the dealer not long after dropping it off, and they said the car was "within spec" and they wouldn't do it. Furthermore the service rep angrily lectured me for asking them to do a specific TSIB! What gives? Do all dealers treat their customers this shabbily?
TIA
Well I got a call from the dealer not long after dropping it off, and they said the car was "within spec" and they wouldn't do it. Furthermore the service rep angrily lectured me for asking them to do a specific TSIB! What gives? Do all dealers treat their customers this shabbily?
TIA
BTW I did Jeff's fix very early on and then recently updated it. It solved my wind noise issue. Without this fix, I would have dumped my LS long time ago irrespective of the $$$ hit.
05-29-10, 09:04 AM
#714
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Unbr
Adding my perspective to this long thread.
I recently acquired a CPO. I have heard about the wind noise problem from the forum so was fully on the alert. One car I drove seemed unusually noisy for a Lexus so I looked up its history and found numerous complaints and work done on the doors. I now think whatever the dealership did to that car made it worse. The car we bought was much quieter.
During the commutes to the dealer we used our Mercedes E320. I made careful notes of the Mercedes cabin noise, especially on the highway. Our Mercedes cabin noise level is actually pretty high if you pay attention to it. The LS460 by comparison was much quieter. During the test drive, at 45 mph I heard some buffeting wind noise but thought it was acceptable. At 70 mph it was noisier but still much quieter than the Mercedes.
For several weeks after the purchase I drove that car only and became increasingly unhappy. I had been thinking about this wind noise issue and reached an odd conclusion. When it comes to cabin noise the Mercedes is actually a better design?! If you are familiar with audio design you probably have heard of noise dithering. It's a technique of deliberately injecting steady noise as background in order to mask objectionable noise. With a steady background of noise sudden blasts from passing cars, cross winds etc... are less noticeable. Information theory also teaches us that the brain has a great ability to filter out noise (low information content). Road noises that are continuous and pervasive have very low information content. While the inside of the Mercedes becomes quickly quiet to the mind, the Lexus remains obnoxiously annoying with obtrusive blasts of noise from passing cars and crosswinds grabbing your attention. I think Lexus engineers designed their car to an averaging noise meter and convinced themselves that the car is quiet - which in a way it is. If you take measurements with a noise meter the Lexus would be very quiet. But that's not how our brain process data and that’s not what we should care about. What we need first is a lower Unwanted Noise to Background ratio (I will coin the term and the acronym UNBR for this discussion). Only then would lowering the cabin noise floor be better. In this sense the Mercedes has lower UNBR than the Lexus and is far less fatiguing to ride in.
We also have a BMW 540iT, idled for an audio upgrade. A friend and I took it out for a ride and we both noticed a difference that was startling. No wind noise issues. The BMW has a relatively low noise floor and a low UNBR. After this ride the Lexus remained parked for several weeks until my wife suggested we sell it since we don’t really need it. I told her I would try the Craney fix first. And so I did.
With the trim removed I understood what has been discussed here. There isn't a flat surface parallel with the surface of the trim. You can do the fix in one step if you are careful but it’s probably easier the first time around to do it in two steps. First to seal all the gaps then attach the trim. This way the trim does not interfere with the sealing operation and will remain attached in a tension-less manner.
With the fix the car became much quieter. The whole noise floor has been lowered. More importantly the UNBR has also been lowered. The passing cars now sound distant. There is still wind noise but more subdued. I doubt if much more can be done given this door design. I was also relieved to hear road noise more now.
My opinion of this car has improved. A seemingly small fault like this can seriously affect how the car feels overall. It’s like preparing a fine dish then sprinkle dead flies on it. Some may be able to eat around the flies and still enjoy the experience. I could not. So thank you Jim for discovering the cause and coming up with the fix. Without a doubt the fix significantly improves the car.
Lexus should redesign the doors. All forward and side surfaces should be solid. The trim should be attached to the outside of the door and not poking through to the inside. They should set up a crosswind pattern and measure the UNBR. And finally they should recall and replace all the doors.
Is this car the quietest amongst our cars? Yes and no. It has the lowest noise floor for sure but our BMW still has a lower UNBR, passing cars sound more distant, road and engine noise is higher. I think our Mercedes has a lower UNBR as well but its noise floor is rather high, so not sure I would prefer. What I do know is that I have never been bothered by wind noise until now. What I conclude from all this is that the noise floor is not a sufficient figure of merit. A “quiet” car can be fatiguing to ride in. And I could not test drive my way out of this risk either. All luxury cars will have an acceptable noise floor. After that it’s the UNBR that matters. One way to lower the UNBR for this Lexus would be to let in a controlled amount of noise from that magnificent beast of an engine they have under the hood.
I recently acquired a CPO. I have heard about the wind noise problem from the forum so was fully on the alert. One car I drove seemed unusually noisy for a Lexus so I looked up its history and found numerous complaints and work done on the doors. I now think whatever the dealership did to that car made it worse. The car we bought was much quieter.
During the commutes to the dealer we used our Mercedes E320. I made careful notes of the Mercedes cabin noise, especially on the highway. Our Mercedes cabin noise level is actually pretty high if you pay attention to it. The LS460 by comparison was much quieter. During the test drive, at 45 mph I heard some buffeting wind noise but thought it was acceptable. At 70 mph it was noisier but still much quieter than the Mercedes.
For several weeks after the purchase I drove that car only and became increasingly unhappy. I had been thinking about this wind noise issue and reached an odd conclusion. When it comes to cabin noise the Mercedes is actually a better design?! If you are familiar with audio design you probably have heard of noise dithering. It's a technique of deliberately injecting steady noise as background in order to mask objectionable noise. With a steady background of noise sudden blasts from passing cars, cross winds etc... are less noticeable. Information theory also teaches us that the brain has a great ability to filter out noise (low information content). Road noises that are continuous and pervasive have very low information content. While the inside of the Mercedes becomes quickly quiet to the mind, the Lexus remains obnoxiously annoying with obtrusive blasts of noise from passing cars and crosswinds grabbing your attention. I think Lexus engineers designed their car to an averaging noise meter and convinced themselves that the car is quiet - which in a way it is. If you take measurements with a noise meter the Lexus would be very quiet. But that's not how our brain process data and that’s not what we should care about. What we need first is a lower Unwanted Noise to Background ratio (I will coin the term and the acronym UNBR for this discussion). Only then would lowering the cabin noise floor be better. In this sense the Mercedes has lower UNBR than the Lexus and is far less fatiguing to ride in.
We also have a BMW 540iT, idled for an audio upgrade. A friend and I took it out for a ride and we both noticed a difference that was startling. No wind noise issues. The BMW has a relatively low noise floor and a low UNBR. After this ride the Lexus remained parked for several weeks until my wife suggested we sell it since we don’t really need it. I told her I would try the Craney fix first. And so I did.
With the trim removed I understood what has been discussed here. There isn't a flat surface parallel with the surface of the trim. You can do the fix in one step if you are careful but it’s probably easier the first time around to do it in two steps. First to seal all the gaps then attach the trim. This way the trim does not interfere with the sealing operation and will remain attached in a tension-less manner.
With the fix the car became much quieter. The whole noise floor has been lowered. More importantly the UNBR has also been lowered. The passing cars now sound distant. There is still wind noise but more subdued. I doubt if much more can be done given this door design. I was also relieved to hear road noise more now.
My opinion of this car has improved. A seemingly small fault like this can seriously affect how the car feels overall. It’s like preparing a fine dish then sprinkle dead flies on it. Some may be able to eat around the flies and still enjoy the experience. I could not. So thank you Jim for discovering the cause and coming up with the fix. Without a doubt the fix significantly improves the car.
Lexus should redesign the doors. All forward and side surfaces should be solid. The trim should be attached to the outside of the door and not poking through to the inside. They should set up a crosswind pattern and measure the UNBR. And finally they should recall and replace all the doors.
Is this car the quietest amongst our cars? Yes and no. It has the lowest noise floor for sure but our BMW still has a lower UNBR, passing cars sound more distant, road and engine noise is higher. I think our Mercedes has a lower UNBR as well but its noise floor is rather high, so not sure I would prefer. What I do know is that I have never been bothered by wind noise until now. What I conclude from all this is that the noise floor is not a sufficient figure of merit. A “quiet” car can be fatiguing to ride in. And I could not test drive my way out of this risk either. All luxury cars will have an acceptable noise floor. After that it’s the UNBR that matters. One way to lower the UNBR for this Lexus would be to let in a controlled amount of noise from that magnificent beast of an engine they have under the hood.
05-29-10, 09:30 AM
#715
With the trim removed I understood what has been discussed here. There isn't a flat surface parallel with the surface of the trim. You can do the fix in one step if you are careful but it’s probably easier the first time around to do it in two steps. First to seal all the gaps then attach the trim. This way the trim does not interfere with the sealing operation and will remain attached in a tension-less manner.
I can't tell, from what you have said, if you used the metal patch that I suggested later in the discussion. If you didn't do that sort of fix, you may find that you will get a significant improvement by trying it. I was amazed when I redid mine because I was very satisfied with the first fix.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.
Last edited by jmcraney; 05-29-10 at 11:17 AM.
05-29-10, 08:47 PM
#716
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I picked up a 2007 LS-460 in Dec 09 and noticed the wind noise issue but since I don't drive it much (wife's car) I didn't try any of the repairs discussed in this thread.
I'm currently on a long road trip and did I ever get the wind noise when in a cross wind situation. Yesterday, I had a 30mph crosswind while I was going 80mph. It was quite noisy. What was interesting though when I pop open the sunroof most of the whistling went away. It was almost like there was an equalizaion of air pressure which eleminated most of the whistling noise.
My plan for the return home is to find some good masking tape and mask around both triangles to see if any of the noise is abated. Once I get back home then I will apply the jmcraney fix.
Other than the wind noise this car is awesome. I asked my wife how does it feel to go 100mph and she said "just like it does at 80mph!" In other words "rock solid". Thanks again for all the DIY help and information in this thread.
I'm currently on a long road trip and did I ever get the wind noise when in a cross wind situation. Yesterday, I had a 30mph crosswind while I was going 80mph. It was quite noisy. What was interesting though when I pop open the sunroof most of the whistling went away. It was almost like there was an equalizaion of air pressure which eleminated most of the whistling noise.
My plan for the return home is to find some good masking tape and mask around both triangles to see if any of the noise is abated. Once I get back home then I will apply the jmcraney fix.
Other than the wind noise this car is awesome. I asked my wife how does it feel to go 100mph and she said "just like it does at 80mph!" In other words "rock solid". Thanks again for all the DIY help and information in this thread.
05-30-10, 04:19 AM
#717
Masking tape, or any other kind of tape, is unlikely to provide much improvement. Several others in this discussion have tried it and I have tried it and it just doesn't do much good. Tape of any sort and especially masking tape, when exposed to heating from the sun is likely to leave a residue that will be difficult to get off and may be damaging to the plastic trim. I expect you are going to be dazzled at the improvement in your car when you get the trim repaired adequately. It will even be quieter when you are sitting still than it was before. Be sure that you use the repair that employs the metal patch.
Last edited by jmcraney; 05-30-10 at 07:14 AM.
05-31-10, 05:17 AM
#718
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First, I would like to publicly thank jmcraney. He was a huge help/support during my attempting the fix. After hearing my situation (post-op back surgery) he even offered to do it for me!
This post is for every guy who is not a normal 'DIYer'. I've never been good at stuff like this, but decided to give it a try. I purchased the materials advised from Lowes and went to work. The metal plate took me the longest as I've never constructed something like this.
Even with the plate, this fix was surprisingly simple to do. My only advice is to take your time so that nothing gets scratched and everything is properly assembled back to the stock look.
If anyone here needs help from another dummy and needs some tips in laymans terms then just shoot me a PM, I'd be more than happy to help.
Thanks again to jmcraney and all that have contributed to this thread
This post is for every guy who is not a normal 'DIYer'. I've never been good at stuff like this, but decided to give it a try. I purchased the materials advised from Lowes and went to work. The metal plate took me the longest as I've never constructed something like this.
Even with the plate, this fix was surprisingly simple to do. My only advice is to take your time so that nothing gets scratched and everything is properly assembled back to the stock look.
If anyone here needs help from another dummy and needs some tips in laymans terms then just shoot me a PM, I'd be more than happy to help.
Thanks again to jmcraney and all that have contributed to this thread
05-31-10, 07:50 AM
#719
First, I would like to publicly thank jmcraney. He was a huge help/support during my attempting the fix. After hearing my situation (post-op back surgery) he even offered to do it for me!
This post is for every guy who is not a normal 'DIYer'. I've never been good at stuff like this, but decided to give it a try. I purchased the materials advised from Lowes and went to work. The metal plate took me the longest as I've never constructed something like this.
Even with the plate, this fix was surprisingly simple to do. My only advice is to take your time so that nothing gets scratched and everything is properly assembled back to the stock look.
If anyone here needs help from another dummy and needs some tips in laymans terms then just shoot me a PM, I'd be more than happy to help.
Thanks again to jmcraney and all that have contributed to this thread
This post is for every guy who is not a normal 'DIYer'. I've never been good at stuff like this, but decided to give it a try. I purchased the materials advised from Lowes and went to work. The metal plate took me the longest as I've never constructed something like this.
Even with the plate, this fix was surprisingly simple to do. My only advice is to take your time so that nothing gets scratched and everything is properly assembled back to the stock look.
If anyone here needs help from another dummy and needs some tips in laymans terms then just shoot me a PM, I'd be more than happy to help.
Thanks again to jmcraney and all that have contributed to this thread
Jmcraney went out of his way to assist me too. God Bless Him.
05-31-10, 07:46 PM
#720
Lexus Champion
you guys might try some dynamat extreme or stinger expert mat.. its a product used in car audio installs.. basically a aluminum sheet w an adhesive backin designed to reduce noise an vibration in vehicles. an it can be added in multiple layers (if necessary) it can be cut w a simple razor blade, peel the paper backing and apply to a clean surface (use alcohol) a license plate kit (15-25$) should do it..
but please be careful as the aluminum is thin an fairly sharp an i have (paper cut) heard of small accidents w it...
but please be careful as the aluminum is thin an fairly sharp an i have (paper cut) heard of small accidents w it...