No problem, Big Jimm!

One thing to keep in mind is that the majority of automotive news writers cannot afford the big luxury flagships that they review, this might also color some of their opinions.

I know that this biting review won't affect my appreciation for the new LS very much! Because there really wasn't anything concrete about the car itself, more on a traditionalist assessment of the luxury marketplace and how that view fits Lexus into it.

I think you have a point, however I disagree with the view of Benz and BMW, moreso the latter. Mercedes' volume seller is the E-class, IIRC--a middle product. It seems to be Benz is more balanced. BMW, by contrast, derives some 75% of its sales from the 3-series; it is as bottom-heavy as Lexus if not more so.

As a former owner of an ES 300, I will forgive you for having insulted my vehicle. I must disagree here (although the 2 ES I owned was marketed as being more 'sporty' than the current ES, especially post-4 ES). I have to say that the ES says something about Lexus that is credible. That Lexus is, #1, about LUXURY. And the ES does it better than anyone else, at that level. It coddles and comforts in a way that is absolutely second to none. The A6 interior has nothing on the ES. Neither do any competitor's vehicles at that price range.

The problem with competing vehicles in the price market, to me, is that they place sporty emphasis first, and luxury second. The ES does it the other way around, and has captured a VERY LOYAL market of buyers that forms a base for the Lexus brand. The ES has a comfortable ride which is foremost its strength. Yes it is tailored toward certain markets, such as the US. But make no mistake the ES is also a segment leader--making Lexus #1 in sales in South Korea last year, and taking it to leadership positions in Taiwan and elsewhere.

But I concede that the ES is not very effective at giving Lexus a GLOBAL marketing presence; the IS does that better and will continue to go up, IMO. However, it still has not eclipsed the ES in sales. Lexus needs to keep selling pure, roomy luxury that Americans and Asians want! The IS and ES tap into very different markets. I see the ES remaining focused on the US/Canada/Asia sales--and in all those markets, the IS will be available.

Elsewhere (Europe, Australia), the IS takes charge, as it should.

I agree with a cap on sales. Of course, 320,000 sales in Europe is years and years off.

I highly doubt that more than a small percentage of those 12 million Europeans would notice the ES (it blends in too). And I don't think the ES is so bad it causes brain damage. Lexus will continue to market the ES in specific markets and I think that is a good thing. They should not cede the entire entry market to sporty luxury. Mercedes and other brands have their share of limited-popularity vehicles, but the ES enjoys high popularity in the markets it is sold. The IS can do the job on its own without killing the ES off. Lexus is not Infiniti, it does not need to drop the I35 and focus on all sport, thus giving us crap interiors and leaving the rich quality tradition behind.

The point is, Lexus is weaker on the sporty aspect and will make improvements, but it will always be lacking for the sports aficianados. Because simply of Lexus' emphasis on luxury and safety. You won't hear the throttle noise, you won't feel the bumps in the road, stability control will intervene, etc. If you want pure sport, get a Porsche! Otherwise, the IS and GS are the best bets here, plus in the future the IS coupe/convertible, perhaps the new SC, and maybe the supercoupe GT.

The only thing I would recommend is possibly moving the ES to a different platform, excising the Camry comparisons completely (that IMO is the most damaging aspect), perhaps making the ES RWD. However, the GS is in the E-class market and doing so might make the ES an E-class competitor. I actually believe that the biggest conundrum is not IS vs. ES but rather ES vs. GS, IMO the GS is suffering as a result.

One last point: one of Lexus' mottos, internally, is "we do not advance the next generation by rejecting the previous generation." The LS builds upon itself. Lexus has not had to cancel a single model designation, EVER and I think it prides itself on that. It is not Lincoln or Infiniti and dropping designations left and right because of outright failures. The ES is a Lexus stalwart and it would hurt the brand to kill it, not just financially but also with the mythos of the brand. You may argue, convincingly, that it will advance the brand in the long term, but I'm still advocating keeping it in limited markets where it enjoys phenomenal success.

So Lexus may be trying to have it both ways, in a) pricing and b) entry-level market. On both I have ambivalent positions, but on b) I am not in favor of outright killing the ES, there should be other, less drastic actions.

Anyhow, this discussion might be best made in a new thread, as it is now way off the LS 460.

 

Actually from the data it sounds like Mercedes is still top heavy. Just look:

TOP ($70K+, top 1% of market)
1. S-class + SL + CL + CLS + G-class = 55 K
2. 7-series + some 6series = ~30K (estimate)
3. LS 430 + SC 430 + LX = 10 K (estimate)

Bottom ($30-45 K)

1. C-class + some ML + some SLK = 80,000
2. 3-series + X3 + Z4 + some X5 = 140,000
3. RX + IS + ES + some GS = 220,000

SO clearly, Benz = top heavy, Lexus = bottom heavy.

I respect your opinions deeply, and do not want to grind too much, but I hope you get my point.

I agree that ES is very luxurious, coddles and comforts like a baby, loyal following, tempting to keep it in US, Canada and korea, Taiwan, compliant ride unmatched by germans.

But the problem:

1. Size is as big as GS. Cabin is as big as GS. Luxury level is same as GS. So GS is suffering. and IS is suffering because of negativity associated with marshmellow ES. So I feel like killing the ES. Also, as you noted, the camry slur.

I agree, lets form a new discussion to debate whether Lexus should price LS, GS and IS head-to-head with germans while still maintaining decent volumes.

 

^^^
I agree, if you'd like to start the thread, be my guest. Or maybe discuss it in the Lexus Japan, or other threads in Car Chat. We had a thread somewhat like that several weeks ago, but it was titled "Is Lexus failing?" which was IMO rather unfortunate a way to start the thread. Lexus is not failing, it is a huge success in America and elsewhere, and a fledgling success in some markets, particularly Europe.

Actually Mr. Neil's comments in his e-mail are relevant to that discussion, as he certainly equated higher $$$$$ to more luxury. Perhaps a thread on "Lexus Strategy" or something...

Thanks for the praise!!! I noticed that the article seriously needed improvement, and since I had just finished reading Lexus: The Pursuit of the Perfect Automobile, The Lexus Story, and Lexus: The Relentless Pursuit, I thought I might have a go at it. This was the first major restructuring and content addition to the article perhaps since its inception, and I see room for further expansion and improvement. But I thought I might let the article lie fallow for awhile since the major expansion. I posted a thread yesterday in Car Chat asking for more information about Lexus' corporate structure, but no one responded. That information would help.

Incidentally, I edited the article knowing that Lexus corporate probably would not want to touch it. There have been controversies recently where wikipedia article edits have been tied to computer servers inside company buildings. Those edits have been PR embarassments for the firms involved, so I can see why Lexus PR would stay away from wikipedia, leaving the opportunity for Lexus customers like myself to step in and contribute.

 

Yes, please do!
vvv

 

Can I publish this data prominently on other threads on clublexus?????

Its very significant price trend between LS and its competitors.

 

Audi is definitely not worth that price. Poor reliability and low name recognition/prestige for the price.

 

TREMENDOUS KUDOS to you!! Very well written with your sources.

His reply shows his clear bias, that the LS is just a fake to him. Thus, no matter what Lexus does to the LS, it will always be worse.

 

Thank you for the wonderful graph. You can publish once it is related to another thread, however, we won't ask you post a duplicate thread about it like the one currently in the LS forum.

Again, thank you.

 

I wonder sometimes do we read what we write. In every review I have read, the same can be said about BMW short of the M3. Lets see here;
Active stabilizer bars
Power assist this and that
I-drive
M5/M6 are not manuals, period. THus moving further from the driver.

Most reviwers PREFER the older cars b/c they were more simplistic and you were more intimate with responses. New BMWs (and most all new cars) have so many gadgets and gizmo's and weigh 10,000 lbs, the driver is just less and less involved.


Did it ever occur to the NON Lexus owner 300,000 people a year in the USA and almost 500,000 a year worldwide, LIKE a less sporting nature and don't want to take corners at 100mph in a 30 mph zone??

The LS is NOT a sports sedan and for the matter:

Nor is the 7
or S
or A8
or S8
or S65

or anything that weighs over 4000lbs and uses and automatic.

They are not. Yes, some are "sportier" than others but the goal of these cars is luxury and prestige.

 

Originally Posted by Stevekil ..
I saw your edits on wikipedia. Great writing! It was balanced and accurate.
And I noticed you made a sincere effort. You dramatically improved the article.

===========

What is wikipedia?

Big Jimm
So. Fla.

 

Google my friend Its a free online encylopedia that has submissions from anyone on the internet. They are supposed to be verified before posted.

I'm going to be on there soon

 

Thank you for your support ISICKLEX! Actually I remember that you have posted about writing letters to publications in the past, so I thought this time I might give it a try.


Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia which is free for the general public to access and contribute information. It is one of the internet's largest sources of free information, and one study in Science (IIRC) found its accuracy similar to Encyclopedia Britannica, much to their chagrin. However, wikipedia is known for being vulnerable to vandalism, so its editors check regularly and control access to certain areas.

The Lexus article is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus

 

Brilliant post. You hit a home run. Go Yankees! Those who want 123 mile per hour cornering should buy porsche or NSX.

Steve Kilburn

 

To: Chris Erskine, editor

RE: Dan Neil’s biased anti-Lexus article - “Passion takes a back seat.”

Dear Mr. Erskine:

Your Dan Neil is bringing strong discredit to the L.A. Times and its reputation. As an editor, you must know that any writer who consistently overuses “big words” is writing to impress .. rather than inform. This should flag suspicion of objectivity.

Auto interested readers are not interested in egotistical, over-educated bloviators. We want cold facts. Not careless, biased opinions.

I’m not a Lexus owner. Just thinking about buying one. I’m looking for supportable, ACCURATE information. Even a novice could see that Neil’s article was filled with inaccuracies and “personal” off-the-cuff comments .. rather than FACTS. VERY unhelpful - and angering - for new prospective buyers.

Why would the respected Times continue employment of such a careless loose canon as Neil?

Aren’t you at all concerned with “reader trust?”

Jim Graham
Palm Beach Gardens, Fl

 

Thanks for offering them your views, Big Jimm. I think your letter and others (at least one person on Autospies commented he'd sent one) will let them know that many people disagree with the tone and conclusions of this article. From what I've read on several automotive websites, the article seems to have backfired--even anti-Lexus readers were put off by the language. Even they wanted to see the LS subjected to a fair, accurate test.

Fortunately there are lots of reviews still to come, and already out there, that offer more information! This details in this article seemed written largely off a press release or information kit.