You guys really believe the STP line of bs.I actually use synthetics in all of my vehicles, including the Kubota and zero turn. In the olden days I used all kinds of additives in my Falcon and Rambler. I used Wolfs Head and Quaker Maid, the very cheapest oil I could find. They sold for about 25 cents a quart. I bought it by the case. Both used a quart to the hundred miles. Real total loss systems. I never had to change the oil, I just had to keep oil in them. I had a Tempest station wagon that was almost as bad. It was a four cyl, half of a 389, with a two speed Corvair automatic in the rear. $200 didn't buy much fifty years ago. I was fresh out of high school and then in the Navy. You drove what you could afford.
Knock sensors, if Lexus tuned engines to run on 91, there is no need for knock sensors. Knock sensors allow the use of a far greater span of octanes. My manual isn't very clear on octane. It says not to use anything less than 87. That part is clear. They should just say "For best performance use 91 or higher", but they don't. Guess what I'll use? I'll just have to get by on 350 hp instead of 360.
Chevron Techron, I believe Chevron uses it in there gasolines. Are you saying it is a bad additive to use? Is Chevron a bad gas? It may be a waste, I have been using it for so long. I've never had an injector, fuel pump or catalytic converter problem in at least a million miles. I'll continue using it. I just had a case delivered today.

 

I don't think they will hurt your car, they are just totally unnecessary, they could potentially cause sensor issues etc. An LS460 and a Falcon or Rambler are entirely different animals. You can believe what Lexus "should say" but the reality is, their engineers CHOSE TO SAY a certain thing, and I trust their knowledge before I trust your seat of the pants experience. Unless you are a vehicle engineer (and we have one posting in this conversation who says you are wrong) I don't see how you can say with confidence that the engineers who designed this engine weren't serious when they set down the fuel requirement.

The point is to make you understand that you waste money on additives in the same way that in your opinion we waste money running premium fuel. At the end of the day, you came in and asked a question when in reality you weren't looking for an answer or people's viewpoints, you had already made up your mind what you were going to do...thats annoying.

You asked this question:

And have proceeded to argue with every single person who answered it with the answer you didn't want. What was the point of even asking the question? Just do what you want.

 

Cavedog: Let's say Toyota does tune the engine to run on 91 octane (specifically). Which to be honest, I don't KNOW that's what they do. I suspect it is either what they do, or for the most part what they do. Because what they do is very complex, but also very savvy. They are very savvy in order to *try to* please every single customer. Which is impossible, but they try. Anywho - let's say they do tune for 91. A knock sensor is still a really good idea to have. Because, even though gasoline manufacturing is controlled and quality monitored very well, it is still not perfect. And the finished product will vary. The engine is best, to still be able to protect itself. Yet if they tell a customer (in the owner's manual): "This engine is tuned for 91 octane, so run 91 octane." Customers in my area are going to question or panic. "I don't have 91 octane, I only have 87, 89 and 93 octane!" Not many customers understand the significance or insignificance of such differences. So instead of telling a customer to "run 91 octane." They are more broad and say stuff like, "Premium fuel is recommended." That is more easily understood and accomplished by nearly all customers.

I'll add one more piece of advice I learned from another engineer who had no reason in heck to lie. Gas additives, especially fuel injector cleaner. This engineer buddy of mine bought a well used V6 trans am for a son of his. It was youthful, not particularly powerful or valuable. Perfect for a teen. It wasn't running so good, so he and his son went on a campaign to add fuel injector cleaner to every tank of fuel in order to clean the injectors. After a couple months, it ran worse. I don't remember what had pointed him to the injectors, but somehow he had pinpointed them as the problem. He decided to pull the injectors and replace or send them to a shop for cleaning. He pulled them and found they were much less expensive to clean than to replace. He contacted a place that did that service. The owner of the shop told my buddy (and this is where my buddy had NO REASON to lie), that fuel injector cleaner was the best thing that ever happened to his bidness. The shop owner said what happens is, you dump that stuff in there, drive a little bit and park the car. As the fuel injector cleaner settles into the bottom of the tank, it starts doing its thing. Cleaning. It loosens up gunk in the bottom of the tank. That stuff becomes dislodged and inevitably works its way into the fuel lines. What doesn't get caught by the filter, a lot of times gets caught in the injectors. Viola, injectors become badly clogged and sent to him for cleaning. That shop owner loved fuel injector cleaner!

Buddy put his cleaned injectors back in the 3.8L V6 and then complained it made more power for his 16 year old son than he had anticipated. To this day, I've never ran ANY additive in fuel or oil. I've never had an issue with fuel, oil, or their related systems. However, if an owner's manual said to, I would. But I've never seen a manufacturer recommend to use any additive.

During my tenure as a Toyota engineer, I had to help write sections of the owner's manual. It is a tough tough job. It has to go through the review of various expert people. These experts have the experience to know what a customer will understand, and what they will find not clear. I had to rewrite so much crap, many many times. I actually totally disliked doing the owner's manual. It was so tough to get right. I tend to always write in a way assuming people understand what I'm conveying. I do a poor job of being clear. But these expert people were amazing. They were always correct, and they made my instructions so much better. The point is, THAT'S JUST THE OWNER'S MANUAL. The actual mechanical development of a car is so much more complex than the friggin owner's manual. ESPECIALLY the engine. Except maybe for Hyundai-Kia engineers. They're just trained to figure out how Toyota did it and do it as close the same as is possible.

 

Cleaning injectors is something that almost no one does anymore yet it is so easy to do......I have brought many TBI cars that have sat a long time back from the dead with just a proper clean and new seals.

 

LOL. Heard from the engineer that rights manuals for engineers that are knowledgeable on the subject and how to perform the chore. That's why the average person has problems with instructions. Why not see if your average high school dropout can understand the instructions I've told my wife many times this instruction manual can't be understood by anyone but another engineer. Oh, by the way. You have another engineer here. Electro-Mechanical degree experienced in inertial guidance systems. Specifically G280 and G300 used in F4 aircraft and variants. Plus another degrees in management. So, I see your degree and raise you one.
If Techron settles out of the gas, Chevron stations must have one hech of a lot of Techron in their tanks. If their tanks are low, it would stand to reason you could be pumping straight Techron into your tank.
Filters. I thought filters are used to capture anything large enough to clog an injector. Could it be, people with injector problems had them before the additives. The additives didn't work because it was too late.
Lexus doesn't recommend additives, correct. Why does my dealer recommend BG treatment products and services? Doesn't my dealer have a little more than a casual relationship with Lexus? I drive less than 15000 miles a year. The miles are spread out over the LS, SC and a Honda Ridgeline. I give them a shock treatment once a year of a quality treatment found in Chevron gas. I find, Techron to be very cost effective alternative to the Lexus BG treatment.
I've been enjoying March Madness. There have been some very good games. It does seem to be one long commercial with basketball interruptions.
Have a good night.

 

Because your dealer is trying to make as much money off their customers as they can. Dealers try and add crap to the maintenance schedule on top of what the manufacturer recommends all the time. Listen to the manufacturer, not the dealer.

 

LOL. I guess we can't debate like this with our spouses. Enjoy it.

 

I'm out. This is idiotic.