430SLOwner

Both buyers and sellers should be aware of resources available to help determine the true market value of a vehicle.

Sellers should try to get the most money they can, while buyers should try to part with the least amount they can.

So, going into a negotiation with the right ammunition is important.

There are many tools out there to help determine the value of a car and the interweb allows one access to a wealth of available information. One source is Edmunds TMV free used car appraisal at https://www.edmunds.com/appraisal/ which "bases its pricing on information from a wide variety of sources, including dealer transactions, depreciation costs for unique automobiles and consumer information. ... factors, including year, make, model, trim, mileage, depreciation and features. ... in determining the value of your used vehicle."

NADA is another free source https://www.nadaguides.com/ to help determine price as well as Kelly Blue Book https://www.kbb.com/. (Have found NADA and KBB prices to be ambitious on some models. But if you are selling a car quoting these sources may help your cause while buyers may prefer to use Edmunds as a quide for pricing many models of used cars.)

Emotion should be left out of the equation by both buyer and seller when trying to determine price. Many cars for sale end up rotting still in a stubborn private owners possession when an owner will not drop a dime less than a certain price because of emotion. The market does not care much about what an owner paid or how much was spent in recent repairs, It only cares about matches of amounts ready buyers are willing to pay to amounts ready sellers are willing to sell. Some cars sell at prices well above their actual market value when a buyer "falls in love" with a vehicle and over-pays with hard-earned money that the buyer would be much better off keeping to use in other ways or for other purposes. One way to help determine what a car is currently worth is to follow recent auction results of the particular vehicle to determine a base price from which to help determine at what price to buy or sell.

A member recently was kind enough to post that at the beginning of May 2019 Mannehein auction sale results for Lexus LS 430s showed actual sale prices from $3500 to $6000. One may be in a much better position to make a fair bargain using this irrefutable data as opposed to using a price someone may "feel" is the current market value of a car.

Miles, wear and tear, and mechanical condition are important factors to consider when making a buying decision. $3500 may be an amount vastly more than a high mileage, worn out LS 430 with mechanical issues may be worth and a waste to pay that amount for such a car, while a near perfect 2005 or 2006 LS 430 with low miles, a spotless maintenance record, whose only owner drove it just once each week but each and every week, 100 miles on the highway, to and from church, may be a fine deal and a good value at nearly twice the amount of the high $6000 auction result if one is acquiring a LS 430 to keep for personal use. When buying, always remember. it is ok to just walk away from a deal. And there is no need to travel a vast distance to buy any large production run vehicle as with patience a buyer will eventually find a suitable example of a car the buyer seeks for sale not far from home.

I hope this information may be helpful to someone.

Peacebay

Where’s that dead horse picture?

Johnhav430

I saw a YouTube that I found interesting where it compared buying a car in the 1970's to today. Seemed a lot easier in 1970, not to mention a person on average spent < 33% of their income on a car, whereas today it approaches 60%.

One noteworthy point though, was that sales back then were one of two things. Either higher pressure, or, they actually tried to get repeat customers--like 4 to 5 cars in 10 years, as the same salesperson was likely to spend 25 years at a dealership. I was blown away on how a person had 7 engines to choose from, 20 colors, etc.

Along the lines of LS430s. I think the car was and I stress past tense. It was a unique used car, because it's a flagship car, and generally could be driven by an ordinary person due to its stellar reliability. Dealer maintenance is basically unaffordable, but at the same time, DIY is quite possible and likely. But here it is 2019. I just spent some time in Calif. driving a CX-5 rental, and it got 28.x mpg combined in LA. Had nav, yacht rock 311, adaptive LED blah blah blah, it isn't really much longer that most can tolerate 19 mpg on premium combined, except those who don't drive much or rich people (say 2019 V8's or big SUVs etc).

So imho a LS430 purchase today is rather whimsical--if you see it and it seems good, get it. If not, don't., Not a whole lot of thought needs to go into it anymore. The newest ones are pushing 14 years old. Even a kid in HS is gonna get a newer car than that. Heck my first car cost $700 and was 11 y.o. lol it wasn't 14.

ThomasGS4

iTrader: (19)

Appreciate the mid-afternoon laugh.

Stu

What are you talking about ! My LS430 is worth more than I bought it for 9 years ago.

When I sell it I will get enough cash from the sale to buy a new Audi R8

Bocatrip

Johnhav430......I watched the same you tube on 70s new car buying. It was quite interesting. The median gross income for 1970 was $9,870 and the average new car price was $3543 which equates to 36% of median family income to purchase a new car in 1970. Today's median family income is $60,336 and the average new car price is $36,000 which equates to $59% of family income to purchase a new car. That struck home to me right away.......NEW CARS TODAY ARE EXPENSIVE! Another reason there is so much leasing and people who do own their cars are keeping them longer. I own my LS430 for 10 years and it is now 18 years old!

OG Member

iTrader: (1)

LS430FL

In my eyes an LS430 is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I find it very unrealistic to try and bargain manheim prices with a dealer. Those are wholesale dealer only prices and dealers are not in business to break even. There is a risk a dealer takes buying at manheim knowing nothing about the cars true condition that you must account for in their asking price.

Johnhav430

I did that with the LS430 I bought, from a new car dealer. And as you suggest, it didn't work. You always know when you've gone into some taboo pricing zone when the dealer doesn't even bother to counter. Mine was advertised at first for $15,998, and I offered $12k cash. We know $15,998 in Oct 2016 was not a reasonable price, so yes eventually they did come down about $1500 (not great but they did end up doing some repairs as well for $0), but to $12k they did not even counter. I bet they gave the person who traded it in 8-9k.

What does getting it from a new car dealer used, do? Well, I got the front brakes done with Lexus OE, and the driver door actuator done, for free. Had that have been a private party sale or used car dealer, I would have been on my own. Retail wise that's at least $1400 of work.

Let's say at my out the door price I overpaid by $2k--I'm spreading it out over 15 years so it won't be a big deal. Another 4 months and I would have had this car 3 years, and only 3 issues. 2 front park sensors, check engine went on but did not come back after being reset and 1800 miles, and subwoofer started buzzing, $4 silicone fine since.

Would I buy a LS430 today in June 2019? No. car is too old. would I keep one that I have? Yes. This car has served me well for almost 3 years thus far. Avoided a car payment.

On buying a new car, the unfortunate thing is most of us here are enthusiasts, we know that the cars today have been decontented to the hilt. I was looking at that CX-5 online and I thought, for 40k, this car has solid rear discs, holy moley that's like 1992. Then, I started poking around. A RX350 also has solid rear discs. At nearly 60k? Today more than ever, that "new car smell" is really not worth it. Even at the M5 level, Alpina B7 level, the rear calipers are floating. When Porsche does that, the proverbial fat lady has sung. Thank goodness you can still get fixed calipers if you spend 140k.

p.s. on a business trip I found my boss (new this year) has 7 cars and is a car enthusiast. One car of interest is a 2002 325 BMW Cic. I said dang, when that car was brand new, the 328 model was my dream car, later the 330. Time flies.

430SLOwner

Of course anything is worth to a person the amount that person pays for it. No transaction would ever take place if this was not the case. A buyer will trade an amount of mosey for an item because the buyer values the item more than the amount of money. A seller will trade an item for an amount of money because he values the amount of money more than the item. So while an LS 430 may be "worth" to that buyer the amount of money the buyer paid, it neither makes that car worth more nor less than its market value. e. g. If one were to buy a 2006 Lexus LS 430 in showroom condition with 80,000 miles for $9,900 and another person buys an identical (except for vin #) 2006 LS 430 in showroom condition with 80,000 miles for $6200, is either worth more than the other in the market for used LS 430s? Or, do both still have about the same market value? Whatever that is. An auction is a pure example of ready buyers and ready sellers agreements of a price which gives a strong indication of retail market value as they are a function of that retail price. Using auction price as an input, the relationship will determine the output or retail price.

Auction price amounts also give the indication of a car's condition. Expect that vehicles crossing the auction block at $6000 appear to be in better condition than those crossing at $3500 (other things being equal).
Expensive real estate, taxes, payroll, building and maintaining expenses (notice Lexus dealerships have some plush showrooms and service facilities), insurance, accounting, legal fees, and etc. have to be paid by dealers. To avoid bankruptcy, mark-ups are required on acquired inventory. (It is a given that the dealer already knows auction prices so a buyer should only bargain for the selling price of the vehicle he is trying to buy.)

While one cannot expect the dealer to resell a car to the public at the price it paid, one should still use those actual auction transactions as a guide to help determine what price to offer when buying. If a buyer has information that a make and model car A sells at auction between $3500 and $6000 and a different make and model car B sells at auction between $500 and $1000 dollars one may be reasonably certain that such information will allow the logical thinking buyer to be aware that retail values for B should be significantly less than values for A by using the auction inputs.

Market value is what it is. If one is looking to buy a Lexus LS 430 that person is is a very strong position to negotiate a low price from a private seller and a lower price than a high (compared to market) asking price from a dealer.

caddylover

i'll give you some insight. First LS i looked at was a 2005 cypress pearl UL. 120000kms and was at the dealership more than any car should have been at that mileage. Car was imported from California to Manitoba Canada. Seller wanted $`15000 Cdn for the car. Took it for a test drive and there was a shimmy at speeds from 80-100kph. Said no thanks and 4 months later saw it as a trade in at a local dealership and they wanted $12500. Then missed a 2005 black on black CL with 150000km for $7500. After another 9 months, finally saw a Briarwood Pearl / Black UL 2004 with 300000km for $8500. Wasn't selling. Two months later went down to $7400. I offered $6500 and settled at $7000. One owner, all service records and maintenance done at proper intervals. Also found out it was my friends uncle selling it as he moved up to a 460. Guy was **** about all maintenance. Good buy, love the car and paid what i thought was fair.

jimbosr1

I want to buy a 2006 LS with 80k miles in showroon condition in 430SLOwner's world.Please provide examples of such creations.If i had a buyer look at my car and he laid that line of BS on me, he would have my foot up is A$$!

430SLOwner

If you are trying to sell your car and you still have it apparently your asking price is too high. And, either prospective buyers are unwilling to come look at your over-priced item or prospective buyers appear to be unwilling to make an offer once they see your car, if you still have your foot not in someone. If you don't have your car for sale, then why should you care?

However, you have provided the thread with insight on how human emotion may interfere with our logical thinking when we decide on what price we will pay for a car.

I also own a 430 LS and am happy with the car. And I think it is a very fine automobile. But, I also realize that the LS 430 is an old car with continual falling demand resulting in lower and lower market prices as time goes on. And, this makes for an opportunity for someone who may like this car, to own one for a couple grand or so for one with miles (17 months ago I looked at a white 2002 LS 430 with 138,000 miles, all services completed, mechanically needing nothing, center arm rest worn, a few parking dings and dangs, just ok tires, drove perfectly, but reeked of cigarette smoke as the owner was a smoker. The miser in me made me want to buy it at the $2100 price the seller dropped to as I was leaving his house as I was confident I could drive that LS 430 from Maine to California worry free. But I don't smoke and did not like the smell and passed on it.) or one can own a pristine LS 430 for maybe around $9000 if one is willing to pay up for lower miles and better condition (a few months ago a Toyota dealer in a neighboring county sold a 41000 mile one-owner 2004 LS 430 for $8900. The car looked in showroom condition and the dealer was initially asked almost 12 when it put it up for sale some weeks before it sold at 89). While I can guess that my pampered 95000 mile luxury package 2006 LS 430 may bring $8000 from an enthusiastic buyer if I were to sell it today, I think it will be better for me to drive it into the ground as I like the LS 430 very much and do not care how old it is or how many more miles I put on it.

The LS 430 is just not a very desirable car in the car market today (look at CarGurus or any of the many sites on the interweb selling cars and you will see many LS 430s offered for sale have been on the market for months and months and are not selling.) Years ago it was a very desirable car in the market. Current market conditions give an opportunity to someone who may wish to buy a Lexus LS 430 to do so at lower and lower prices as time goes on. And there are still many pampered low-mileage LS 430s which will be coming on the market. The LS 430 is still a very fine automobile. And, bargain shoppers who decide to buy one may be very happy once they own and drive a LS 430. There is little reason to pay an inflated price when you can just walk away from sellers with overly ambitiously priced LS 430s and wait for reasonable sellers offers to come to market to make a deal.

jimbosr1

First i don't have my car for sale due to it being totaled and the insurance company cut me a check for $12k for my 06 with 122k miles so under your theory i should of received $3k-?.I have dealing in vehicles for 44 years and i have never sold my cars at auction prices.

430SLOwner

You got a very nice settlement. But, I saw pics of your car and it appears you kept it very well. So, you may have rather had the car still undamaged as you knew exactly what you had with it. i do not blame you if you do. Sorry for the loss of your car, But glad you at least got a generous settlement (relative to current market values). I had two cars totaled by drivers who ran stops and hit me and received generous insurance checks relative to the market value of the cars. And, I would rather have had the cars undamaged as both were near perfect.

But I have no idea of any theory you mention. I never even mentioned anything about how to settle a total-loss insurance claim. But if I were to, I might suggest to present the highest retail offers of similar vehicles in the marketplace by same nameplate new car dealers who may have a used like kind vehicle for sale. Previously, I have only discussed cold hard irrefutable facts about buying or selling in the marketplace which anyone can verify quickly and easily on the interweb. Having facts may be very helpful in determining market values and what one should be willing to pay for an item if one may want to buy that item. Not emotion and theory. The facts are that prices for LS 430s are at an all time low and prices are steadily going lower. This real world fact may allow you an opportunity to replace your LS 430 with one with lower miles and still have thousands in change from your settlement check. Maybe be happy for that?

I do have a question if you may please be so kind to answer. Do you have any intention what-so-ever of buying another LS 430? Are they now too old for you to consider buying another one?