writes123

So, I have read the sticky post for how to DIY the 04-06 WS transmission fluid. Utilizing temperature sensor, shifting gears, etc.

I came to a conclusion that my newly acquired '05 LS430 with 122K was due to a transmission fluid service. After calling several dealers (toyota and lexus), some dealers only advocated a drain and fill, others only did "flushes" via machine, others quoted me both services.

I decided on a local Toyota dealer who wold do the "flush/exchange" for $170. The next best price for a flush was 260 from a local lexus dealer. Other dealers offered a drain and fill for the same price.

While waiting for my car, I was able to see the technician lift the car and remove some transmission bolts. Since I didn't get too close, I don't know exactly what was unscrewed.

My issue or concern with the service is that the tech inserted a long hose attached to a GREEN barrel with red lid on rollers. The tech would pump the fluid from the barrel (ATF) and liquid would flow out of another hole (i'm guessing the overflow outlet).

There was no special machine or exchange machine utilized. Only a ATF barrel with a hose attached and some pumping action with excess draining into their other barrel.

From the TSB on WS transmission for the LS430, it seems that the SST was a little different that was pictured vs what I actually observed.

Ironically, the service advisor that wrote up my ordered the
19TOZZATF1 ATF FLUID EXCHANGE service on my estimate.

"Perform ATF exchange: Using a 2 part kit. the transmission cleaner is installed into the old fluid and the vehicle is taken on a road test to ensure proper shift quality and overall transmission performance. after which, using the specialized equipment our factory trained tech flushes out the torque converter, cooler & lines, valve body & trans pan using up to 10 qts of new fluid to evacuate virtually all of the old depleted fluid. then install the ATF supplement to protect against thermal breakdown and foaming to help extend fluid life.

This sound like the BG machine procedure or something similar. However, all I saw was a barrel on wheels with a pump. I also believe that my car was turned off during the entire procedure. The tech took his time with the pumping and draining, possibly a good 20 minutes till he started screwing things back in.

The kicker is that on my final bill invoice: for material used there is a trans additive costing $30 and 10 MULTI-GRADE ATF costing 3.75 each. I asked the service writer about the Multi-grade ATF and whether it was WS and he stated that it was but the computer just labels it as MULTI-GRADE ATF.

Can anyone comment on the procedure that I observed, what it was, if it was likely correctly done, etc. Also, is the multi-grade ATF is really WS ATF? Major concerns if the ATF used was correct.

As I noted, the car was completely turned off during the fluid service.

As a side note, the struts were completely deflated and the tech was slightly perplexed why my car was so low. I was concerned that my air struts were damaged. But to my relief they reinflated once the car was turned on and a few minutes passed.

Thanks in advance.

XJSFan

Now u have me nervous about going to my Lexus dealer for an ATF change. I will know doubt make sure my dealer will use only Lexus/Toyota brand WS fluid... Otherwise, I'll just do it myself...

jimbosr1

$170 i would think they would of used toyota w/s fluid.i looked at my receipt when i got mine changed, and the labor was $90 and i bought the w/s sense i get my parts at wholesale for $7 a qt and gave the 12 qts to the service dept. i am sure they didnt use all 12 qt so i paid a little more then you did.
how much was the labor charge?
if i were you i would like to see world standard written on you receipt.if it goes up it wouldnt be to difficult to find out which fluid was put in there.they would be on the hook for a transmission.

writes123

Labor was 102.54. Parts was 67.45.

I've attached a detailed bill of the ATF service.

Gene01

You have a couple of questions there, so here's my $.02 worth.
First, we have a terminology issue. The best descriptive terms are:
a. Drain & Fill - this means to drain some quantity of ATF through the drain plug and add the same quantity back in. The amount drained depends on the time allowed but is only a few quarts at most. If repeated several times, you will get most of the old ATF exchanged. Let me know if you want the (simple) calculation. See the extensive posts by LScowboyLS in the LS400 subforum for more detail.
b. Fluid exchange - this means to exchange all of the old fluid for new at one operation. There is a special expensive, magical machine that does this, which I understand uses the lines running to the ATF cooler in the radiator to accomplish this miracle. I believe that the exchange machine has its own pump, but could be wrong about that. If it doesn't, you would have to run the transmission to exchange the fluid in the torque convertor at least.
c. Flush - this is the service, sometimes called a "power flush" that is widely recommended AGAINST by knowledgeable technicians. Again, read the posts in the LS400 subforum.
It sounds like you got something like a "hand-powered exchange" which may or may not get al the fluid exchanged, especially from the torque convertor. I's really hard to tell.
The second issue is the fluid itself. If it were me, I would ask for a written statement that they used (ONLY) WS ATF. That is what Lexus (and Aisin, the transmission manufacturer) specify. No additives are specified, nor are any desirable,
I can't imagine that the correct WS ATF would come from an unlabeled barrel. It sounds very suspicious to me.
Thirdly, from your description, they did not come close to doing what they said they did: add cleaner (what?), drive it, then exchange all the fluid.
I am not anything like an expert, so my advice would be to PM LScowboyLS and get his opinion.
Good luck, and let us know what you find out.

BradTank

I honestly think a big reason why manufacturers are going to "lifetime/sealed" transmissions is they probably have internal stats showing that transmissions are more often damaged by techs screwing up with some sort of flush or using the wrong fluid than just having old fluid in there. The manufacturers go out of their way now to keep people from messing with the fluid.

This probably isn't the answer you want to hear, but if it were my car, I would probably take it to a Lexus dealer, explain what happened at the Toyota dealership, and have them exchange all of the fluids.

It sucks to eat that $180 at the Toyota dealership, and I would maybe have the Lexus dealer write something up about having to redo it and talk to a manager about getting a refund, but they'll probably tell you to pound sand. They'll swear up and down they did it by the book and the right fluid was put in.

The Toyota dealership probably put one of their $10 an hour lube monkeys on it that has never touched an LS.

Who knows, you could be paranoid over nothing, but I personally think $200 to redo it is pretty cheap insurance. If it was the wrong fluid or the wrong amount, and it fries your transmission, you're going to have to hire a lawyer and probably sue the Toyota dealership to get them to pony up for a replacement.

Sorry, I could be completely wrong, but I don't think you can be too careful with transmissions.

Lavrishevo

iTrader: (1)

When you are talking about manufacturers your are referring to Lexus right? Aisin has never claimed that the transmission is a lifetime fluid and they designed it to be serviced.

BradTank

There is no scheduled change for the transmission fluid in the owner's manual for that era LS. There is also no dipstick opening where you can add in fluid.

You can debate what that means, but Lexus definitely gives owners the impression that it's a lifetime filled unit.

If they wanted people to change it at regular intervals, shouldn't that be in the service/owner's manual?

I'm not making the case for not changing the transmission fluid, but to say Lexus never pushed this is simply not true.

XJSFan

Its very easy to do a ATF drain and fill... I am planning on doing mine this Spring and will probably do 3-4 drains and fills over a few weeks, and then maybe do one once a every year after that. . ...

Coulter

That's really excessive, and I definitely wouldn't call the procedure DIY-friendly like the old style were.

I disagree, Lexus and their service departments definitely want owners to think it's lifetime with regard to the fluid.

writes123

Thanks for all the discussion and comments thus far.

I've decided that I must err on the side of precaution. My thinking is that there is a bit of difference b/t the T-IV and WS fluid, the majority of which is the viscosity and the service interval. For the 01-03 using T-IV, there was a recommendation in the maintenance schedule to replace if under severe conditions etc. at 30k miles. The 04-06 with WS never says to replace but to inspect. How I'm supposed to inspect it without a dipstick is a mystery to me. Not very DIY friendly.

I'm thinking that the 100 miles I put on the Multi-grade ATF from the Toyota dealer would not do too much damage. At worst, the service interval for me is 10k instead of 30k or 100k or infinity. I also, consider that the hand pump exchange with my car turned off was not a full flush or exchange.

Fortunately, via a coupon, I only paid out-of-pocket for the questionable ATF exchange around 126. I called a couple of nearby Lexus dealers and the lowest quote I got was 174 for an ATF fluid exchange.

From the estimate, its OPCODE "ATFWS"
World Standard Transmission Fluid Replacement
00289-ATFWS WORLD STANDARD AUTOM (QTY 6)
Notes: DRAIN,REFILL TRANSMISSION, USE SCANTOOL TO ADJUST FLUID LEVEL, INSPECT FOR LEAKS AND TEST DRIVE
labor 710
Est: LBR 112.75 PTS 55.80

I explained to the Lexus service adviser what had happened with the Toyota dealer. He offered the above service. After clarifying with the service adviser, he stated that the above procedure removes everything but the torque converter fluid. If the car were to run and engage the torque converter fluid change, it would involve around 15 qts of WS; running the bill to around $500. He also added, since there is no service interval for this service a drain and refill should be more than adequate and more cost-effective.

At this dealer, there's a 10% off for AAA members, so in the overall scheme, this Lexus dealer will cost less than the Toyota dealer for a hopefully (fingers crossed) correct transmission fluid change.

Right now, I'm in an excessively large waiting room. Much nicer than the small one at the Toyota dealer I was at .

I will update after the service is complete.

Thanks again.

As a side note, I'll probably do a drain and fill every 30k at this lexus dealer. To most CL members that may be quite excessive and a waste of money and time, but it's cheap insurance and provides some peace of mind on my part.

jimbosr1

lexus will not change my fluid in my 06.toyota changed it.lexus said never needs changing

writes123

I would greatly appreciate the calculation.

Thanks in advance.

BradTank

writes123,

I think you made the right call, even though I'm sure it's frustrating to have to redo it. It's probably worth the price you paid just for the peace of mind. I don't thing you did any damage in that amount of time, you just don't want the wrong fluid or amount in there over the long haul.

The whole cleaner and additive part is odd, it's the kind of nonsense you would get at a JiffyLube, not a dealership.

Gene01

OK, the calculation:
Assume that the transmission, torque convertor, lines, etc. (everything) holds 15 qts. as stated in post #11.
Now, measure the amount of fluid drained. This is quite dependent on how long you let it drip (15 mins. vs. overnight). Let's say you drain and then refill 2 qts. So, you now have 2 / 15 new fluid, which is a bit over 13%.
When (not if :-) you repeat the procedure, you will now have removed 2 qts of fluid (containing 13% "fresh" and 87% "old" fluid) and replaced it with 2 qts of new, The result is that you now have 13+11% fresh and 74% old.
You can see the "diminishing returns" for each partial drain and fill. It is apparent that the more you can drain out at each repetition, the less reps you have to do to achieve acceptably fresh fluid. Also, it is apparent that you will never replace 100& of the old fluid, but this is OK. What you want to do is to drain and fill as much as you have time and patience for and repeat the operation until the color and smell is as near as you would like to new fluid.
Budget and time permitting, of course.