LS - 1st and 2nd Gen (1990-2000) Discussion topics related to the 1990 - 2000 Lexus LS400

Cryo rotors

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Old 12-11-07, 11:25 AM
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RA40
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Default Cryo rotors

I didn't want to post in the vendor section because it is not the place. This is one reply I received when this was put by some of my metal working friends:

If the steel used is a secondary hardening steel, it could be beneficial. If it isn't (and most steels used on brake rotors aren't) then it's not worth the added expense.

At least in my opinion. But I am not a metallurgist, just some guy that reads a lot....

What was the goal of cryo treating? Harder steel, longer life, more stopping power? Again, I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that a harder steel would resist the abrasion of the brake pads, and as a result, stopping power would be reduced. Consider that, in order to stop via abrasion, the coefficient of friction comes into play, and a harder steel would have a lower CF. Maybe. Again, I suppose that depends on the steel and what sort of microstructures are present through the depth of the rotor.

Hmm. Thinking about it, it seems to me that if you make the steel harder but more abrasive (by creating hard microstructures), you're going to go through brake pads a heck of a lot faster. So you have the tradeoff of having to buy those more often. That could actually be more expensive than just buying a set of rotors every few years.

Personally, I consider it a waste of money. Brake rotors are designed to be consumed slowly over their life, and the typical life of rotors (based on my experience alone) is about 100k miles. I suppose it could be useful on racecars in endurance races - like 24 Hours Of Le Mans to ensure that your rotors don't fail prematurely, but last I looked, those rotors weren't even made of steel - it's some sort of composite or high alloy (can't find the reference, too busy to look).

Anyway, I'm interested to see what the experts have to say.
When I have time, I may run the question by my heat treater. In my experience with cutting tools, cryo treatment has a marginal performance increase. For some applications, it did make the steel more brittle by raising the Rockwell C scale 2 points. This depends on the steel and how it was heat treated to begin with. I use specific formulated steels that adhere to a industry spec. I dunno about brake rotors and especially what formulations they use.

Just some thoughts to consider.

??
Old 12-11-07, 11:47 AM
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its got more to do with strengthening the steel internally than making it "harder" as far as i know.

Any cast or manufactured part has some built in internal stresses and brake rotors and pads are no exception. This is why rotors can warp just by sitting on the shelf.

The most effective way to completely eliminate these stresses is to do it in the controlled environment of a computerized deep cryogenic treatment system. CI’s controlled deep cryogenic treatment system and process is capable of treating a wide variety of materials, such as ferrous and non-ferrous metals, metallic alloys, carbides, plastics (including nylon and Teflon) and ceramics. The entire process takes between 36 to 74 hours, depending on the weight and type of material being treated. In the case of steel and its alloys, cryogenic treatment removes the built-in kinetic energy of atoms, which is the energy of motion. There is a normal attraction between atoms that makes them want to get together. But their energy of motion keeps them apart unless that energy is removed by low temperature cooling.

This special process is not a surface treatment; it affects the entire mass of the brake rotor, drum or pad being treated, making it stress free and stronger throughout. The hardness of the material treated is unaffected, while its strength is actually increased. This eliminates the danger of heat cracks, chipping and breaking. An additional benefit of the CI process is the elimination of vibrations caused by stresses in the rotor.

In steel, the CI treatment at temperatures of (-320°F) transforms soft austenite into hard martensite. This transformation improves rotor surface wear and heat resistance; more miles can be driven before costly changes are required. This reduces the changeover rate of the rotors, thus improving the over-all life, and saving on vehicle downtime and labor. In general, a forty percent reduction in heat is seen after brake rotors, pads, and calipers are deep cryogenically treated.
http://www.cryogenicsinternational.com/rotors.htm
Old 12-11-07, 12:33 PM
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just want to point out, time attack cars....dont use cryo rotors....why should a luxury car?
Old 12-11-07, 01:32 PM
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Certain steel compositions may benefit from it, the slag that rotors are made for the mass markets...

There are different approaches to steel hardening and my experience is limited. Usually cryo treatment of my cutting tools is done immediately after a stage of annealing because the steel is already at a specific held temperature. The cryo changes the grain structure to the desired result. Cryo after this period does not have effect on the steels I use/am familiar. So if the rotors are made in China, heat treated, then a slow ship ride to the US and cryo'd months later...it is not going to effect grain structure. It has already been set. If this company anneals, drills, re-heat treat's them, then does a cryo...

I just called my heat treater (company has 40+ years in the biz). He's read about this as well. In his opinion, it does not provide a benefit to braking. His reply is to increase rotor hardness, the pad has to become softer to compensate. Thus you will need to replace pads more frequently. Softer pads usually create more dust. No matter what, it's friction and there maintains a balance.

The original rotors on mine now have 120K and the OEM ceramic pads last about 60-70K depending how hard you are on your brakes. Personally, I'll stick with the OEM brake set-up. If one desires that flashy symmetrical drilling pattern, it's your $$. Based on what my heat treat guy just relayed, I don't think there will be any obvious braking improvement. (Your wallet is lighter hence less weight, you car will stop faster hopefully. )

Last edited by RA40; 12-11-07 at 01:36 PM.
Old 12-11-07, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PureDrifter
its got more to do with strengthening the steel internally than making it "harder" as far as i know.

http://www.cryogenicsinternational.com/rotors.htm
A harder steel resists wear and supposedly if done right has improved heat cycling abilities. For internal engine parts held to high spec...important. By aligning the grain structure in steel, it will become stronger but that presumes a high quality steel. Each of those little holes drilled creates stress points when heated. Even after a cryo treatment where the grain may flow around the holes.

For that, a good metalurgist will formulate specific soak times (Soak time is how long the steel is exposed to heat or cryo treatment). Certain steels if going above to below the specified soak and heat temperature, it can be ruined. You'll either find in this application, the rotor is too soft and wears quickly or too hard and doesn't stop. At best, it will be nearly identical to a OEM rotor.
Old 12-11-07, 02:48 PM
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bingo. if you notice, most cryo parts are engine, driveline, and tranny parts. cryo gear boxes are extremely popular as well as cryo pistons for higher boost. its all in your budget
Old 12-11-07, 08:46 PM
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Gee. I'm repeating myself...I consulted another metal working buddy...who relayted similar:

Cryo treatment follows immediately after the final tempering within a specified heat range of the object. If not done, it needs to go through the heat treat, anneal/tempering process then cryo to bring out the properties desired. So following the hole drilling, they would need to heat treat the rotor then cryo it. If this deep freeze process is done simply after hole drilling, it is not setting the grain of the steel and you will likely encounter similar incidents as with other drilled rotors...warpage and cracking.

I wish I could properly discuss the details but the process is pretty common so I'll refer you out. Find out what the steel composition-origin is. Then call a certified heat treat agency and ask them what their thoughts are about cryo treatment on brake rotors made from this steel. Your yellow pages will have plenty to choose.

Last edited by RA40; 12-11-07 at 08:51 PM.
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