InsideLine roadtrip with LFA, GT2 and GT-R (merged threads)
#151
Lexus Test Driver
Dunno. Lexus basic wrong decisions has cost LFA a lot in its reputation building and credentials proving. I am very concerned LFA will go down in history as an overpriced supercar that did not have the credentials to back up its cost especially when it is Lexus' first halo supercar. There was a desperate need for a reputation to be established and take the proper steps to ensure it. It just did not happen.
Lexus has not been great with its decisions otherwise they would have:
- Given Lexus LFA some optional seriously competent high-grip tires to prove its prowess (No Potenza S001 are not classified even middle-tiered high-grip tires. Let alone R compound tires.)
- Allow the usage of launch control system much like any other manufacturer does.
- Release some actual official stats of the car with demo of launch control system, lap times etc.
Here is some analysis. The 2012 GTR is wearing these tires (Dunlop DSST 600 GT Maxx):
Look at the tread pattern as it becomes clear they are high-grip tires and look at the fact that these are categorized 'Extreme performance tires'. EPT tires are only one step below R compound tires.:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....T+600+DSST+CTT
Now look at the tires that Lexus LFA is wearing a custom version of these (Bridgestone Potenza S001):
The tread pattern and grooves are clearly meant to channel water to the sides for wet traction. These are far more oriented towards dry/wet traction balance. How LFA could be spinning so badly when launched from 4000 rpm on a drag strip that they had to lower the launch rpm to 3800 rpm when it is not a bottom end torque monster is simply beyond me. That is why they are categorized 'Max performance tires'. MPT are middle-tier grip street tires:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....l=Potenza+S001
These are the R compound tires Porsche GT2 RS wears meant for competition and track:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ilot+Sport+Cup
How much difference does it make?? Well, in a test conducted on Nurburgring, the test car was able to cut down 12 seconds per lap on its time when it switched from Pilot PS2 tires to Pilot Sport Cup tires.
Case in point, atleast put it on a level playing field. Lexus never really gave LFA the full opportunity to show what it truly is (or should) be capable of.
Lexus has not been great with its decisions otherwise they would have:
- Given Lexus LFA some optional seriously competent high-grip tires to prove its prowess (No Potenza S001 are not classified even middle-tiered high-grip tires. Let alone R compound tires.)
- Allow the usage of launch control system much like any other manufacturer does.
- Release some actual official stats of the car with demo of launch control system, lap times etc.
Here is some analysis. The 2012 GTR is wearing these tires (Dunlop DSST 600 GT Maxx):
Look at the tread pattern as it becomes clear they are high-grip tires and look at the fact that these are categorized 'Extreme performance tires'. EPT tires are only one step below R compound tires.:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....T+600+DSST+CTT
Now look at the tires that Lexus LFA is wearing a custom version of these (Bridgestone Potenza S001):
The tread pattern and grooves are clearly meant to channel water to the sides for wet traction. These are far more oriented towards dry/wet traction balance. How LFA could be spinning so badly when launched from 4000 rpm on a drag strip that they had to lower the launch rpm to 3800 rpm when it is not a bottom end torque monster is simply beyond me. That is why they are categorized 'Max performance tires'. MPT are middle-tier grip street tires:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....l=Potenza+S001
These are the R compound tires Porsche GT2 RS wears meant for competition and track:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ilot+Sport+Cup
How much difference does it make?? Well, in a test conducted on Nurburgring, the test car was able to cut down 12 seconds per lap on its time when it switched from Pilot PS2 tires to Pilot Sport Cup tires.
Case in point, atleast put it on a level playing field. Lexus never really gave LFA the full opportunity to show what it truly is (or should) be capable of.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 04-21-11 at 06:26 PM.
#152
Guest
Posts: n/a
Its quite frankly astonishing Lexus, barely 20 years old, mostly known for soft cars has not only produced the most exotic car from Japan but has sold them for an asking price of $375,000 in this economy. I really don't think that has hit home with people. Lexus is selling this vehicle.
The next highest priced Japanese car is a $120,000 or so LS. Then the $85,000 GT-R and Lexus LX.
Its simply astonishing.
The next highest priced Japanese car is a $120,000 or so LS. Then the $85,000 GT-R and Lexus LX.
Its simply astonishing.
#153
Lexus Champion
Its quite frankly astonishing Lexus, barely 20 years old, mostly known for soft cars has not only produced the most exotic car from Japan but has sold some of them for an asking price of $375,000 in this economy. I really don't think that has hit home with people. Lexus is selling some of this vehicle....with many going to dealers.
The next highest priced Japanese car is a $120,000 or so LS. Then the $85,000 GT-R and Lexus LX.
Its simply astonishing.
The next highest priced Japanese car is a $120,000 or so LS. Then the $85,000 GT-R and Lexus LX.
Its simply astonishing.
I'm a fan of these vehicle too, but after some of the hype...real or imagined...there are some tough questions that are fair to be asked.
#154
Super Moderator
Why would it be surprising that many LFA 's are bought by owners of dealerships ?
I myself have speculated a long time ago that all three owners of the 4 Vancouver dealerships would probably be interested in buying one for themselves, since at least two of them are from billionaire families, and since they own Lexus dealerships as well as dealerships of other brands, why won't they want to collect a rare car like the LFA ? which is just peanuts for them even at almost $400K ...
You can safely say the same for many other super rich dealership owners in the USA and all over the world ...
I myself have speculated a long time ago that all three owners of the 4 Vancouver dealerships would probably be interested in buying one for themselves, since at least two of them are from billionaire families, and since they own Lexus dealerships as well as dealerships of other brands, why won't they want to collect a rare car like the LFA ? which is just peanuts for them even at almost $400K ...
You can safely say the same for many other super rich dealership owners in the USA and all over the world ...
#155
Lexus Champion
Why would it be wrong to sell the LFA to dealers? That's like Ferrari selling GTO's to Ferrari dealers and saying it's bad! LOL, come on now. If they have the means and have owned Lexus cars before, why not give them the chance to own it? They could have left it in Japan, and it'd been sold out LONG ago. Be happy it's coming to other parts of the world. The thing is, no one has done the l/c demonstration with any specific measured time, no one has taken it to the ring with a production model and made a specific time, etc. etc. All we can do is speculate. But to write it off and say it'll be forgotten is premature. It's going to make race appearances, it already has and will be at the Nurburgring again this year. Who knows what the future hold for the LFA! We may yet see it in LeMans, or FIA GT, or even SuperGT! Just because it is good in any weather and sacrificed some of that dry traction with it's tire choice doesn't mean it loses it's credentials or potential. That's what I believe.
#156
Lexus Test Driver
Well, it is based on the immense and baffling hatred I find for the LFA and there is a very rational and objective excuse going in favor of the haters all over the place that is the basis of my dilemma here. If Lexus gave it a fair chance to put down the right numbers for a $375,000 car, it would reduce the hatred down to pure subjectivity since the objective data would have been right where it had to be. No one would be able to refute or downplay it. We are talking very attainable 11.1 - 11.3 secs 1/4 mile and maybe 7:21 - 7:23 Nurburgring lap time with high-grip tires. It was a win-win situation for both Lexus and LFA.
Anyway, the biggest thing you said is MAY. MAY is the key here. That is deja vu all over again. We were hoping last summer Lexus will allow the press to use launch control system on the LFA to extract the best times (much like any other manufacturer would do). Did that happen??? We were hoping Lexus will fit it with serious high-grip tires (afterall, it is a high-performance supercar). As you can see by the data I supplied above, the de facto standard does not put the Potenza S001 in the league of serious high-grip tires that cars like GTR or GT2 RS come with. I have very low hopes for the upcoming "Best Motoring" battle.
The Potenza S001 completely go up in smoke even if the LFA is launched on a drag strip from a reasonable 4000 rpm when it is not even a bottom end torque monster so insideline had to reduce the rpm down to 3800 rpm just to get off the line. I was noticing the tires were gripping when the rpm finally bogged down to only 2600 rpm, which explains the lower than expected trap speed. A 515 wheel HP high-output RWD supercar needs every ounce of grip it can get to put all that power down.
I can assure you, nothing is going to happen now that so many tests have already been conducted. The 7:38 AutoBild lap time is probably as close as it will ever get to knowing what LFA's track prowess was. The only thing plausibly it might be remember for are the underwhelming, subpar performance numbers for the price (again, I am saying plausible and hopefully proven wrong).
Anyway, the biggest thing you said is MAY. MAY is the key here. That is deja vu all over again. We were hoping last summer Lexus will allow the press to use launch control system on the LFA to extract the best times (much like any other manufacturer would do). Did that happen??? We were hoping Lexus will fit it with serious high-grip tires (afterall, it is a high-performance supercar). As you can see by the data I supplied above, the de facto standard does not put the Potenza S001 in the league of serious high-grip tires that cars like GTR or GT2 RS come with. I have very low hopes for the upcoming "Best Motoring" battle.
The Potenza S001 completely go up in smoke even if the LFA is launched on a drag strip from a reasonable 4000 rpm when it is not even a bottom end torque monster so insideline had to reduce the rpm down to 3800 rpm just to get off the line. I was noticing the tires were gripping when the rpm finally bogged down to only 2600 rpm, which explains the lower than expected trap speed. A 515 wheel HP high-output RWD supercar needs every ounce of grip it can get to put all that power down.
I can assure you, nothing is going to happen now that so many tests have already been conducted. The 7:38 AutoBild lap time is probably as close as it will ever get to knowing what LFA's track prowess was. The only thing plausibly it might be remember for are the underwhelming, subpar performance numbers for the price (again, I am saying plausible and hopefully proven wrong).
Why would it be wrong to sell the LFA to dealers? That's like Ferrari selling GTO's to Ferrari dealers and saying it's bad! LOL, come on now. If they have the means and have owned Lexus cars before, why not give them the chance to own it? They could have left it in Japan, and it'd been sold out LONG ago. Be happy it's coming to other parts of the world. The thing is, no one has done the l/c demonstration with any specific measured time, no one has taken it to the ring with a production model and made a specific time, etc. etc. All we can do is speculate. But to write it off and say it'll be forgotten is premature. It's going to make race appearances, it already has and will be at the Nurburgring again this year. Who knows what the future hold for the LFA! We may yet see it in LeMans, or FIA GT, or even SuperGT! Just because it is good in any weather and sacrificed some of that dry traction with it's tire choice doesn't mean it loses it's credentials or potential. That's what I believe.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 04-21-11 at 11:39 PM.
#157
Lexus Test Driver
http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...11-gt2-rs.html
So they got 580 wheel HP from the GT2 RS. About 65 wheel HP more than the LFA on the same dyno and at the same time, but LFA revs 40% higher and has much shorter gearing due to the huge rev range resulting in much more torque multiplication through gears.
GT2 RS is RR layout so the drivetrain loss should be considerably less than FR layout of the LFA.
So they got 580 wheel HP from the GT2 RS. About 65 wheel HP more than the LFA on the same dyno and at the same time, but LFA revs 40% higher and has much shorter gearing due to the huge rev range resulting in much more torque multiplication through gears.
GT2 RS is RR layout so the drivetrain loss should be considerably less than FR layout of the LFA.
Simply put, it was a powerful day. First we ran the 2012 Lexus LFA on the rollers of the Dynojet 248 chassis dyno, and immediately following it was the 2011 Porsche 911 GT2 RS. Yes, that RS, the limited-production powerhouse of power with power.
Each car is indeed the most horsepower-laden production vehicle ever turned out by their respective automaker. For Porsche, that's saying a lot. For Toyota, well, it says not quite as much.
You've seen the LFA's dyno result. So how did Porsche's latest turbopanzer fare? Hit the jump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Ehx...layer_embedded
What's that? The humdrum, rear-drive, turbocharged Porsche 911 GT2 is weaksauce; a little too soft in the middle for you? Here's your solution, Clanky McBrassballs -- the GT2 RS subtracts weight and adds power (plus a hefty sum to the window sticker) to the tune of 620 horsepower and 516 lb-ft as measured at the flywheel.
Think of the GT2 RS as the swan song for not only the 997-based 911 but also the "Metzger" engine, the motorsports version of the Porsche flat-six. Today, the Metzger engine is found only in GT3/GT3 RS/GT2 and GT2 RS versions of the 911. And while Porsche cranks out special- and limited-edition versions of the 997 at an ever-increasing pace as the sun sets on this generation of 911, the GT2 RS will go down as the most powerful production Metzger of them all.
Honest, all the Porsche dorks swear up and down that there's an engine in the trunk.
The Metzger engine is an entirely different architecture than that of the Boxster/Cayman and garden-variety 911s (including the Turbo), and it displaces "only" 3.6 liters and employs conventional port fuel injection to the Turbo's 3.8 liters and direct injection. Yet when Porsche builds their hardest-core models, they consistently tap the Metzger engine for duty.
It's difficult to argue with this:
That's 580 horsepower and 518 lb-ft as measured at the wheels on California's "premium" 91 octane. Yeah, all the ponies are in the stable. And how. Torque hovers right around 500 lb-ft from 3500 to nearly 6000 rpm and barely tapers off as it runs into the fuel cut, resulting in a crushingly wide and flexible powerband.
However, since nitpicking is what I do, I expected the boost to rise faster than it did (see the ramp in torque up to 3500 rpm) as the GT2 RS has fancy variable-nozzle turbos. To be fair, the boost (and torque) will rise sooner in a taller gear, but 140 mph at the top of fourth puts plenty enough heat in the tires on a dyno, thank you.
The lack of rotating inertia is noticeable even on the dyno. This car forces you to really be on your game when you shift, else the revs rise or fall too much and you feel like a tool. Beyond that, this engine is a total *****cat -- you can easily creep away from a stoplight or plunk around at low revs without a hiccup in the power delivery, and the clutch is substantial but totally progressive.
Its engine note isn't much to write home about. There's a flat, pissed-off roar as the GT2 RS absolutely pulverizes the rollers, and that's it. It's not as dumpy-sounding as a Viper, but it definitely doesn't tingle the spine the way Porsche's normally aspirated flat-sixes do. Then again, normally aspirated engines can't produce the torque that a turbocharged engine can. Life is such a series of tradeoffs.
This car points up the importance of speed in making power. Namely, the dyno fan situated at the nose of the car is too directional to supply adequate air to the intercooler ducts atop the rear fenders -- on one run the car lost 70 horsepower as it tried to reconcile the high manifold temperatures with the ambient air temperature. Figuring a small child was inadvertedly jammed in each intercooler duct, it dialed back boost and throttle as a self-preservation mechanism.
Once I pointed little squirrel-cage fans into the intercooler ducts, all the power returned, and consistently so. Out in the wild it'll have Mother Nature supplying literally all the air in the world to the intercoolers. Just keep those damned rugrats from cramming themselves into the rear fenders and you'll be all set.
As for our mega-power day on the dyno, here's how the 911 GT2 RS stacks up to the Lexus LFA:
Although the LFA revs some 40% higher than the GT2 RS, in fourth gear both cars reach their respective rev limits at 140 mph. It turns out the LFA's gearing is similarly shorter than the Porsche's. How's that for two completely different means arriving at the same end, speed-wise?
--Jason Kavanagh, Engineering Editor
Each car is indeed the most horsepower-laden production vehicle ever turned out by their respective automaker. For Porsche, that's saying a lot. For Toyota, well, it says not quite as much.
You've seen the LFA's dyno result. So how did Porsche's latest turbopanzer fare? Hit the jump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Ehx...layer_embedded
What's that? The humdrum, rear-drive, turbocharged Porsche 911 GT2 is weaksauce; a little too soft in the middle for you? Here's your solution, Clanky McBrassballs -- the GT2 RS subtracts weight and adds power (plus a hefty sum to the window sticker) to the tune of 620 horsepower and 516 lb-ft as measured at the flywheel.
Think of the GT2 RS as the swan song for not only the 997-based 911 but also the "Metzger" engine, the motorsports version of the Porsche flat-six. Today, the Metzger engine is found only in GT3/GT3 RS/GT2 and GT2 RS versions of the 911. And while Porsche cranks out special- and limited-edition versions of the 997 at an ever-increasing pace as the sun sets on this generation of 911, the GT2 RS will go down as the most powerful production Metzger of them all.
Honest, all the Porsche dorks swear up and down that there's an engine in the trunk.
The Metzger engine is an entirely different architecture than that of the Boxster/Cayman and garden-variety 911s (including the Turbo), and it displaces "only" 3.6 liters and employs conventional port fuel injection to the Turbo's 3.8 liters and direct injection. Yet when Porsche builds their hardest-core models, they consistently tap the Metzger engine for duty.
It's difficult to argue with this:
That's 580 horsepower and 518 lb-ft as measured at the wheels on California's "premium" 91 octane. Yeah, all the ponies are in the stable. And how. Torque hovers right around 500 lb-ft from 3500 to nearly 6000 rpm and barely tapers off as it runs into the fuel cut, resulting in a crushingly wide and flexible powerband.
However, since nitpicking is what I do, I expected the boost to rise faster than it did (see the ramp in torque up to 3500 rpm) as the GT2 RS has fancy variable-nozzle turbos. To be fair, the boost (and torque) will rise sooner in a taller gear, but 140 mph at the top of fourth puts plenty enough heat in the tires on a dyno, thank you.
The lack of rotating inertia is noticeable even on the dyno. This car forces you to really be on your game when you shift, else the revs rise or fall too much and you feel like a tool. Beyond that, this engine is a total *****cat -- you can easily creep away from a stoplight or plunk around at low revs without a hiccup in the power delivery, and the clutch is substantial but totally progressive.
Its engine note isn't much to write home about. There's a flat, pissed-off roar as the GT2 RS absolutely pulverizes the rollers, and that's it. It's not as dumpy-sounding as a Viper, but it definitely doesn't tingle the spine the way Porsche's normally aspirated flat-sixes do. Then again, normally aspirated engines can't produce the torque that a turbocharged engine can. Life is such a series of tradeoffs.
This car points up the importance of speed in making power. Namely, the dyno fan situated at the nose of the car is too directional to supply adequate air to the intercooler ducts atop the rear fenders -- on one run the car lost 70 horsepower as it tried to reconcile the high manifold temperatures with the ambient air temperature. Figuring a small child was inadvertedly jammed in each intercooler duct, it dialed back boost and throttle as a self-preservation mechanism.
Once I pointed little squirrel-cage fans into the intercooler ducts, all the power returned, and consistently so. Out in the wild it'll have Mother Nature supplying literally all the air in the world to the intercoolers. Just keep those damned rugrats from cramming themselves into the rear fenders and you'll be all set.
As for our mega-power day on the dyno, here's how the 911 GT2 RS stacks up to the Lexus LFA:
Although the LFA revs some 40% higher than the GT2 RS, in fourth gear both cars reach their respective rev limits at 140 mph. It turns out the LFA's gearing is similarly shorter than the Porsche's. How's that for two completely different means arriving at the same end, speed-wise?
--Jason Kavanagh, Engineering Editor
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 04-25-11 at 11:20 PM.
#159
Lexus Test Driver
LFA makes peak power across a much wider range. It has a 40% broader rev range so with the help of much shorter gearing and faster transmission shifts, the gap is minimal.
#160
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Haven't seen this posted yet but if it has, sorry for the repost.
Insideline LFA vs GT2 RS
http://youtu.be/NuO1pwcdavw
Insideline LFA vs GT2 RS
http://youtu.be/NuO1pwcdavw
Last edited by lomodr; 05-06-11 at 05:48 PM.
#161
Lexus Test Driver
http://www.insideline.com/lexus/lfa/...rip-recap.html
There are road trips, and then there are road trips in a $375,000 supercar. Nearly everyone has done the former at some point, and almost no one has done the latter. Especially in the extremely rare and brand-new 2012 Lexus LFA. Somehow we convinced Lexus that Inside Line should hit the road in the first production LFA dedicated to the press fleet.
But where to go within the 72-hour window afforded to us? Why not Vegas, Baby? Senior Editor Josh Jacquot and I were saddled with the chore. First we headed to a dyno to see what this V10 rocket really produces horsepowerwise, and of course we made a pit stop in Fontana, California, to run our usual barrage of instrumented tests. While at Auto Club Speedway we drag-raced the LFA against a 620-horsepower Porsche 911 GT2 RS. And we even let a couple of IL readers fulfill their fantasies and test-drive the LFA, much to Lexus' displeasure. We also blogged, Tweeted and Foursquared everything along the way.
No road trip is worth burning fuel on if you don't push the car to its limits on at least one curvy road, so we took a run up Glendora Mountain Road. Then it was off to Las Vegas, where we cruised the Strip looking for trouble, and challenged a 2012 Nissan GT-R to a drag race on a closed stretch of desert road. We also made time for a Tweetup with some IL readers at a local Vegas hangout.
Then it was full steam back to Torrance, California, sustained on Red Bull, peanut M&Ms and the natural adrenaline that comes with piloting one of the most raucous and utterly capable supercars ever created.
There are road trips, and then there are road trips in a $375,000 supercar. Nearly everyone has done the former at some point, and almost no one has done the latter. Especially in the extremely rare and brand-new 2012 Lexus LFA. Somehow we convinced Lexus that Inside Line should hit the road in the first production LFA dedicated to the press fleet.
But where to go within the 72-hour window afforded to us? Why not Vegas, Baby? Senior Editor Josh Jacquot and I were saddled with the chore. First we headed to a dyno to see what this V10 rocket really produces horsepowerwise, and of course we made a pit stop in Fontana, California, to run our usual barrage of instrumented tests. While at Auto Club Speedway we drag-raced the LFA against a 620-horsepower Porsche 911 GT2 RS. And we even let a couple of IL readers fulfill their fantasies and test-drive the LFA, much to Lexus' displeasure. We also blogged, Tweeted and Foursquared everything along the way.
No road trip is worth burning fuel on if you don't push the car to its limits on at least one curvy road, so we took a run up Glendora Mountain Road. Then it was off to Las Vegas, where we cruised the Strip looking for trouble, and challenged a 2012 Nissan GT-R to a drag race on a closed stretch of desert road. We also made time for a Tweetup with some IL readers at a local Vegas hangout.
Then it was full steam back to Torrance, California, sustained on Red Bull, peanut M&Ms and the natural adrenaline that comes with piloting one of the most raucous and utterly capable supercars ever created.
#163
Lexus Test Driver
I am almost inclined towards making a thread on 'the most ludicrous things you heard about the LFA". I think I might actually do that for some satirical fun.
I have followed exotics/supercars for 10 years from the time of Enzo, F430, Carrera GT, Ford GT to the current crop.
Seriously, I am thoroughly convinced I have never seen a more hated/singled-out supercar in my life. During that one week the gong show that went on insideline blogs was simply unheard of, if you look at the other blogs on the page. There is nothing like it. Samething when MotorTrend did the GTR comparo, which LFA won.
That is probably why I wanted atleast just ONE thing desperately where LFA just stands out and raises the benchmark especially for its steep price that stands out.
Unfortunately, LFA now seems to have shaped up to be a exotic supercar that does a lot of things very well, however, it does not exceptionally stand out at anything.
I have followed exotics/supercars for 10 years from the time of Enzo, F430, Carrera GT, Ford GT to the current crop.
Seriously, I am thoroughly convinced I have never seen a more hated/singled-out supercar in my life. During that one week the gong show that went on insideline blogs was simply unheard of, if you look at the other blogs on the page. There is nothing like it. Samething when MotorTrend did the GTR comparo, which LFA won.
That is probably why I wanted atleast just ONE thing desperately where LFA just stands out and raises the benchmark especially for its steep price that stands out.
Unfortunately, LFA now seems to have shaped up to be a exotic supercar that does a lot of things very well, however, it does not exceptionally stand out at anything.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 05-08-11 at 11:31 PM.
#164
Lexus Test Driver
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I would agree that the LFA does get diminished quite a bit. However, excuses shouldn't be made for it, either. We can all conclude that Lexus was just on their own on this one. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it takes a bit of courage to understand and defend it. As long as the owners are happy, the car can't be that bad, right?
#165
Lexus Connoisseur
I would agree that the LFA does get diminished quite a bit. However, excuses shouldn't be made for it, either. We can all conclude that Lexus was just on their own on this one. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it takes a bit of courage to understand and defend it. As long as the owners are happy, the car can't be that bad, right?