Xtant or Arc audio??
Driver
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From: New Jersey
Percy, Retro and the rest,
Other than subjectivity, why do you think Mc is better than either Zapco, Arc or Brax? Can you hear the difference? You opinion is merely subjective, trust me. If you beg to differ, I suggest you contact Richard Clark (of Autosound 2000) and take his challenge and let me know how it goes.
As for build quality, Zapco is built like a brick $hithouse. The damn thing is over engineed all the way. As for Zapco being thin (according to Vel) in the sub frequencies, call John Borges over at Zapco and show him in print (I haven't seen what was typed) b/c I think he will have a nice lawsuit for the libelous statements......
Other than subjectivity, why do you think Mc is better than either Zapco, Arc or Brax? Can you hear the difference? You opinion is merely subjective, trust me. If you beg to differ, I suggest you contact Richard Clark (of Autosound 2000) and take his challenge and let me know how it goes.
As for build quality, Zapco is built like a brick $hithouse. The damn thing is over engineed all the way. As for Zapco being thin (according to Vel) in the sub frequencies, call John Borges over at Zapco and show him in print (I haven't seen what was typed) b/c I think he will have a nice lawsuit for the libelous statements......
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From: Illinois
Ira,
Too many "loopholes" with the autosound challenge. No test tones and no modded amps as well as a whole bunch of other "no-no" stuff involved. My stuff would be instantly disqualified as I've changed out the parts internally. You can do a search on the topic of the autosound challenge- it's somewhere in there. As for Velodyne, don't go too fast on the lawsuit button! They (Velodyne) tested the amps in real life situtations and the Zapco didn't perform. It's documented in their instructions. Though they didn't say which amp was tested that was from Zapco.
Now as for the numbers, Mc is THE only company that I've seen that will do better than their specs. Auto Sound & Security as well as Car Stereo Review has said this in their full lab reviews of the Mc units. Even Brax (though they are great amps) didn't fare up to the lab/real life measurement vs their "claimed specs". Since '96, Mc is the only company that I've seen that will conservatively rate their amps. Reminds me of the old Buick GNX...we're only good for about 240+ hp. When in reality it put out much more than that!
If you have any amps that test AT or BETTER than their claimed spec, let me know! I had high hopes that Brax would be able to do it, but unfortunately, it didn't. It's still a great amp, despite the advertising.
"Do what you say, say what you do". So far Mc has met up to that challenge as well as Velodyne. Less than 1 percent distortion for a sub throughout it's operating range - and a large format British magazine tested it to be true.
Percy
Too many "loopholes" with the autosound challenge. No test tones and no modded amps as well as a whole bunch of other "no-no" stuff involved. My stuff would be instantly disqualified as I've changed out the parts internally. You can do a search on the topic of the autosound challenge- it's somewhere in there. As for Velodyne, don't go too fast on the lawsuit button! They (Velodyne) tested the amps in real life situtations and the Zapco didn't perform. It's documented in their instructions. Though they didn't say which amp was tested that was from Zapco.
Now as for the numbers, Mc is THE only company that I've seen that will do better than their specs. Auto Sound & Security as well as Car Stereo Review has said this in their full lab reviews of the Mc units. Even Brax (though they are great amps) didn't fare up to the lab/real life measurement vs their "claimed specs". Since '96, Mc is the only company that I've seen that will conservatively rate their amps. Reminds me of the old Buick GNX...we're only good for about 240+ hp. When in reality it put out much more than that!
If you have any amps that test AT or BETTER than their claimed spec, let me know! I had high hopes that Brax would be able to do it, but unfortunately, it didn't. It's still a great amp, despite the advertising.
"Do what you say, say what you do". So far Mc has met up to that challenge as well as Velodyne. Less than 1 percent distortion for a sub throughout it's operating range - and a large format British magazine tested it to be true.
Percy
Driver
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 170
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From: New Jersey
Originally posted by Percy
I can't run Zapco since, according to Velodyne, they don't amplifiy the low frequencies well enough. It says so in their instructions and in their tests. Something with not enough amplification below 30hz....Even if the Vel could run with Zapco I'd still stick with Mc. Very high channel seperation numbers as well as signal to noise ratio. I have still YET to see an amp that will beat the Mc on channel seperation and real life signal to noise/distortion numbers.
Percy
I can't run Zapco since, according to Velodyne, they don't amplifiy the low frequencies well enough. It says so in their instructions and in their tests. Something with not enough amplification below 30hz....Even if the Vel could run with Zapco I'd still stick with Mc. Very high channel seperation numbers as well as signal to noise ratio. I have still YET to see an amp that will beat the Mc on channel seperation and real life signal to noise/distortion numbers.
Percy
In actuality, Zapco is too strong down low and, additionally, due to the way the Velodyne system works, it is incompatible with Zapco b/c of its inability to handle the input signal. (had a cell phone conv. w/ Bill while I was shopping with wife this weekend and the rapid rate @ which my wife was spending $$ distracted me from the conversation) If you want all the techincal mumbo jumbo, call Acevedo at 732 291 8808
Now, if McIntosh is so damn good, why the need to mod the amplifier? Seems many a world champion has taken Zapco straight off the shelf, installed it in their car and won world finals.
Lastly, if Zapco amplifiers "don't amplifiy the low frequencies well enough", why did Earl Zausmer choose Zapco amplifiers to power the subwoofers in both of his BMW 5 Series installs, both vehicles winning the World Finals when it really meant something to win the IASCA finals........ Remember, his car was in "Time" Magazine. Also, I am using a 9.0 for sub (full range class D amplifier) and did not boost any frequencies in the sub at all, as a matter of fact, had to cut all sub frequencies (sealed enclosure) and the car still is capable of low to mid 140's (on my SQ setting, muting the mids and highs) if I let it go there. Only two 12" woofers in a sealed enclosure built for SQ, go figure.
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From: Illinois
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ira Senoff
[B]
Actually, according to Zapco literature, independent testing results of Zapco amplifiers (in general), and Bill Acevedo of Sounds Impossible (shop owner, builder of numerous IASCA world champion and/or top 5 cars (at finals) tuner extraordinare, Zapco dealer and an individual who has experience with Velodyne subs in cars), your statement about Zapco and Vel being like oil and water is 180 degrees out of phase.
***I'm quoting from the Velodyne manual. As mentioned before, they DID NOT specifiy which amp they tested with.***
In actuality, Zapco is too strong down low and, additionally, due to the way the Velodyne system works, it is incompatible with Zapco b/c of its inability to handle the input signal. (had a cell phone conv. w/ Bill while I was shopping with wife this weekend and the rapid rate @ which my wife was spending $$ distracted me from the conversation) If you want all the techincal mumbo jumbo, call Acevedo at 732 291 8808
Now, if McIntosh is so damn good, why the need to mod the amplifier?
***Remember what my system goals are - if I can push the limits, I will in a SQ system. Anything that is really good can be made even better. It's just like owning a Lexus...if it's really that good "out of the box" then why bother to modify? Truth is, even the "best" electronics can be made better. They just have to do it within a price constraint, while we, the final consumer, can bump up the performance if we choose to do so. A simple mod that makes quite a bit of difference...Black Gate Capacitors. Cleaned up the processor that I'm using by ALOT - quite obvious to the average joe too. You can ask Peter Lufrano of The Autophile about this one.***
Seems many a world champion has taken Zapco straight off the shelf, installed it in their car and won world finals.
***They do this in Japan also. Many McIntosh amps running around - very few Zapco. From what I see, Japan is much more picky about sound quality and the extremes.***
Lastly, if Zapco amplifiers "don't amplifiy the low frequencies well enough", why did Earl Zausmer choose Zapco amplifiers to power the subwoofers in both of his BMW 5 Series installs, both vehicles winning the World Finals when it really meant something to win the IASCA finals........ Remember, his car was in "Time" Magazine.
***As well as NBC, BMW magazine and a few others. He got his 15 nanoseconds of fame for it and imo, he was one of the worst possible examples of a checkbook competitor - his attitude of "it's always me" attitude got old really quick, plus he wasn't complaining when he had the judges in his pocket. And his business attitude of TELLING IASCA what to do was poor to say the least. As for the Zapco, does a sub reproduce the most critical range of hearing (midrange)? He used it for his subs (B&W) but did he use it for the rest of the midrange/treble? For that he used Milbert tube amps. Don't get me wrong, Zapco is a fine amp, but ol Earl used Milberts for that "warm tube sound".***
Percy
[B]
Actually, according to Zapco literature, independent testing results of Zapco amplifiers (in general), and Bill Acevedo of Sounds Impossible (shop owner, builder of numerous IASCA world champion and/or top 5 cars (at finals) tuner extraordinare, Zapco dealer and an individual who has experience with Velodyne subs in cars), your statement about Zapco and Vel being like oil and water is 180 degrees out of phase.
***I'm quoting from the Velodyne manual. As mentioned before, they DID NOT specifiy which amp they tested with.***
In actuality, Zapco is too strong down low and, additionally, due to the way the Velodyne system works, it is incompatible with Zapco b/c of its inability to handle the input signal. (had a cell phone conv. w/ Bill while I was shopping with wife this weekend and the rapid rate @ which my wife was spending $$ distracted me from the conversation) If you want all the techincal mumbo jumbo, call Acevedo at 732 291 8808
Now, if McIntosh is so damn good, why the need to mod the amplifier?
***Remember what my system goals are - if I can push the limits, I will in a SQ system. Anything that is really good can be made even better. It's just like owning a Lexus...if it's really that good "out of the box" then why bother to modify? Truth is, even the "best" electronics can be made better. They just have to do it within a price constraint, while we, the final consumer, can bump up the performance if we choose to do so. A simple mod that makes quite a bit of difference...Black Gate Capacitors. Cleaned up the processor that I'm using by ALOT - quite obvious to the average joe too. You can ask Peter Lufrano of The Autophile about this one.
***Seems many a world champion has taken Zapco straight off the shelf, installed it in their car and won world finals.
***They do this in Japan also. Many McIntosh amps running around - very few Zapco. From what I see, Japan is much more picky about sound quality and the extremes.***
Lastly, if Zapco amplifiers "don't amplifiy the low frequencies well enough", why did Earl Zausmer choose Zapco amplifiers to power the subwoofers in both of his BMW 5 Series installs, both vehicles winning the World Finals when it really meant something to win the IASCA finals........ Remember, his car was in "Time" Magazine.
***As well as NBC, BMW magazine and a few others. He got his 15 nanoseconds of fame for it and imo, he was one of the worst possible examples of a checkbook competitor - his attitude of "it's always me" attitude got old really quick, plus he wasn't complaining when he had the judges in his pocket. And his business attitude of TELLING IASCA what to do was poor to say the least. As for the Zapco, does a sub reproduce the most critical range of hearing (midrange)? He used it for his subs (B&W) but did he use it for the rest of the midrange/treble? For that he used Milbert tube amps. Don't get me wrong, Zapco is a fine amp, but ol Earl used Milberts for that "warm tube sound".***
Percy
Last edited by Percy; Dec 23, 2002 at 04:15 PM.
Driver
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 170
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From: New Jersey
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Percy
***I'm quoting from the Velodyne manual. As mentioned before, they DID NOT specifiy which amp they tested with.***
And I'm telling you the reason why Zapco isn't compatible with Velodyne - you can't actually believe that Zapco is thin in the sub freq reproduction, can you.....
***Remember what my system goals are - if I can push the limits, I will in a SQ system. Anything that is really good can be made even better. It's just like owning a Lexus...if it's really that good "out of the box" then why bother to modify? Truth is, even the "best" electronics can be made better. They just have to do it within a price constraint, while we, the final consumer, can bump up the performance if we choose to do so. A simple mod that makes quite a bit of difference...Black Gate Capacitors. Cleaned up the processor that I'm using by ALOT - quite obvious to the average joe too. You can ask Peter Lufrano of The Autophile about this one.***
I do push the limits of SQ in my car - ask Manville Smith of JL Audio who listened to it at IASCA finals and rated it higher than 3 out of 5 expert cars (0.5 points from another expert car) and better than all the pro cars he listened to but two of them. I think he is fairly independent (hell, I don't even use JL audio products and some of the other cars he listened to did and, were either presently sponsored and/or previously sponsored by JL Audio and I rated higher)
***They do this in Japan also. Many McIntosh amps running around - very few Zapco. From what I see, Japan is much more picky about sound quality and the extremes.***
Japan has vastly different listening criteria to the US, I don't have all the time in the world to get into it but, trust me, they set their systems up differently and, as a result, are looking for different listening cues than we are - dont' believe me, ask Harry Kimura
***As well as NBC, BMW magazine and a few others. He got his 15 nanoseconds of fame for it and imo, he was one of the worst possible examples of a checkbook competitor - his attitude of "it's always me" attitude got old really quick, plus he wasn't complaining when he had the judges in his pocket. And his business attitude of TELLING IASCA what to do was poor to say the least. As for the Zapco, does a sub reproduce the most critical range of hearing (midrange)? He used it for his subs (B&W) but did he use it for the rest of the midrange/treble? For that he used Milbert tube amps. Don't get me wrong, Zapco is a fine amp, but ol Earl used Milberts for that "warm tube sound".***
His attitude has nothing to do with his amplifier choice for the low end reproduction. Don't cloud the issue. As for his choice of Milbert, Earl was a very different kind of guy and his Milbert was just an extension of that. As for judges in his back pocket, get real. I competed against Earl (in Zone 3) for two years, 30 + shows, and then saw him at numerous other shows for years after. Spoke with him all the time too. Used to be very friendly w/ Earl. He didn't own any judges, his car just sounded that damn good (from one seat). BTW - you do know that "warmth" in sound is distortion and/or coloration, right?
Tell you what Percy, test a Zapco amp, show me the defect in low freq output at described by Vel and I'll shut up. Call Vel and ask them which amplifier they tested and I'll see if I can source you one to test......
***I'm quoting from the Velodyne manual. As mentioned before, they DID NOT specifiy which amp they tested with.***
And I'm telling you the reason why Zapco isn't compatible with Velodyne - you can't actually believe that Zapco is thin in the sub freq reproduction, can you.....
***Remember what my system goals are - if I can push the limits, I will in a SQ system. Anything that is really good can be made even better. It's just like owning a Lexus...if it's really that good "out of the box" then why bother to modify? Truth is, even the "best" electronics can be made better. They just have to do it within a price constraint, while we, the final consumer, can bump up the performance if we choose to do so. A simple mod that makes quite a bit of difference...Black Gate Capacitors. Cleaned up the processor that I'm using by ALOT - quite obvious to the average joe too. You can ask Peter Lufrano of The Autophile about this one.
***I do push the limits of SQ in my car - ask Manville Smith of JL Audio who listened to it at IASCA finals and rated it higher than 3 out of 5 expert cars (0.5 points from another expert car) and better than all the pro cars he listened to but two of them. I think he is fairly independent (hell, I don't even use JL audio products and some of the other cars he listened to did and, were either presently sponsored and/or previously sponsored by JL Audio and I rated higher)
***They do this in Japan also. Many McIntosh amps running around - very few Zapco. From what I see, Japan is much more picky about sound quality and the extremes.***
Japan has vastly different listening criteria to the US, I don't have all the time in the world to get into it but, trust me, they set their systems up differently and, as a result, are looking for different listening cues than we are - dont' believe me, ask Harry Kimura
***As well as NBC, BMW magazine and a few others. He got his 15 nanoseconds of fame for it and imo, he was one of the worst possible examples of a checkbook competitor - his attitude of "it's always me" attitude got old really quick, plus he wasn't complaining when he had the judges in his pocket. And his business attitude of TELLING IASCA what to do was poor to say the least. As for the Zapco, does a sub reproduce the most critical range of hearing (midrange)? He used it for his subs (B&W) but did he use it for the rest of the midrange/treble? For that he used Milbert tube amps. Don't get me wrong, Zapco is a fine amp, but ol Earl used Milberts for that "warm tube sound".***
His attitude has nothing to do with his amplifier choice for the low end reproduction. Don't cloud the issue. As for his choice of Milbert, Earl was a very different kind of guy and his Milbert was just an extension of that. As for judges in his back pocket, get real. I competed against Earl (in Zone 3) for two years, 30 + shows, and then saw him at numerous other shows for years after. Spoke with him all the time too. Used to be very friendly w/ Earl. He didn't own any judges, his car just sounded that damn good (from one seat). BTW - you do know that "warmth" in sound is distortion and/or coloration, right?
Tell you what Percy, test a Zapco amp, show me the defect in low freq output at described by Vel and I'll shut up. Call Vel and ask them which amplifier they tested and I'll see if I can source you one to test......
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From: Illinois
Originally posted by Ira Senoff
[
And I'm telling you the reason why Zapco isn't compatible with Velodyne - you can't actually believe that Zapco is thin in the sub freq reproduction, can you.....
***Ok...refresh my memory. Why aren't they compatible? Is it TOO MUCH in the low end?***
I do push the limits of SQ in my car - ask Manville Smith of JL Audio who listened to it at IASCA finals and rated it higher than 3 out of 5 expert cars (0.5 points from another expert car) and better than all the pro cars he listened to but two of them. I think he is fairly independent (hell, I don't even use JL audio products and some of the other cars he listened to did and, were either presently sponsored and/or previously sponsored by JL Audio and I rated higher)
***We both push the limits in different ways. I just prefer taking top shelf components - (NOTE I'm NOT saying Zapco isn't "top shelf") and then modding them for better performance.***
Japan has vastly different listening criteria to the US, I don't have all the time in the world to get into it but, trust me, they set their systems up differently and, as a result, are looking for different listening cues than we are - dont' believe me, ask Harry Kimura
***I believe you! That's probably why their cars are rigged for such an extreme....***
His attitude has nothing to do with his amplifier choice for the low end reproduction. Don't cloud the issue. As for his choice of Milbert, Earl was a very different kind of guy and his Milbert was just an extension of that.
*** "Different". Absolutely. I never did cloud the issue on this and sayng that his attitude has a decision in his choice of amplifier would be kinda thin. He used Milberts for the midrange/treble and Zapco for the subs. Plain and simple. To quote Brian Morris, World Champion IASCA (Ford Probe), "Earl is Earl." ***
As for judges in his back pocket, get real. I competed against Earl (in Zone 3) for two years, 30 + shows, and then saw him at numerous other shows for years after. Spoke with him all the time too. Used to be very friendly w/ Earl. He didn't own any judges, his car just sounded that damn good (from one seat). BTW - you do know that "warmth" in sound is distortion and/or coloration, right?
***Absolutely. I've always mentioned that the "tube sound" IS coloration/distortion. This is with Milberts or Butler and some people prefer it that way. As for the Zapco vs Mc argument, it pretty much depends on preference. BUT, I have still yet to see another company other than Mc MEET OR BEAT it's published specs. It's one thing to have "marketing" but another to PROVE what you can do and have it all out there in black and white with the numbers to back it up.***
Tell you what Percy, test a Zapco amp, show me the defect in low freq output at described by Vel and I'll shut up.
***Tell you what...I'll find the manuals and copy it for you. Just PM me an address where I can send these to you. They mention Zapco as "not recommended" on their list. To be fair, McIntosh isn't even mentioned on their "recommended" or "not recommended" list. They did like Adcom and Orion amps though...***
Call Vel and ask them which amplifier they tested and I'll see if I can source you one to test...... [/B]
[
And I'm telling you the reason why Zapco isn't compatible with Velodyne - you can't actually believe that Zapco is thin in the sub freq reproduction, can you.....
***Ok...refresh my memory. Why aren't they compatible? Is it TOO MUCH in the low end?***
I do push the limits of SQ in my car - ask Manville Smith of JL Audio who listened to it at IASCA finals and rated it higher than 3 out of 5 expert cars (0.5 points from another expert car) and better than all the pro cars he listened to but two of them. I think he is fairly independent (hell, I don't even use JL audio products and some of the other cars he listened to did and, were either presently sponsored and/or previously sponsored by JL Audio and I rated higher)
***We both push the limits in different ways. I just prefer taking top shelf components - (NOTE I'm NOT saying Zapco isn't "top shelf") and then modding them for better performance.***
Japan has vastly different listening criteria to the US, I don't have all the time in the world to get into it but, trust me, they set their systems up differently and, as a result, are looking for different listening cues than we are - dont' believe me, ask Harry Kimura
***I believe you! That's probably why their cars are rigged for such an extreme....***
His attitude has nothing to do with his amplifier choice for the low end reproduction. Don't cloud the issue. As for his choice of Milbert, Earl was a very different kind of guy and his Milbert was just an extension of that.
*** "Different". Absolutely.
I never did cloud the issue on this and sayng that his attitude has a decision in his choice of amplifier would be kinda thin. He used Milberts for the midrange/treble and Zapco for the subs. Plain and simple. To quote Brian Morris, World Champion IASCA (Ford Probe), "Earl is Earl." ***As for judges in his back pocket, get real. I competed against Earl (in Zone 3) for two years, 30 + shows, and then saw him at numerous other shows for years after. Spoke with him all the time too. Used to be very friendly w/ Earl. He didn't own any judges, his car just sounded that damn good (from one seat). BTW - you do know that "warmth" in sound is distortion and/or coloration, right?
***Absolutely. I've always mentioned that the "tube sound" IS coloration/distortion. This is with Milberts or Butler and some people prefer it that way. As for the Zapco vs Mc argument, it pretty much depends on preference. BUT, I have still yet to see another company other than Mc MEET OR BEAT it's published specs. It's one thing to have "marketing" but another to PROVE what you can do and have it all out there in black and white with the numbers to back it up.***
Tell you what Percy, test a Zapco amp, show me the defect in low freq output at described by Vel and I'll shut up.
***Tell you what...I'll find the manuals and copy it for you. Just PM me an address where I can send these to you. They mention Zapco as "not recommended" on their list. To be fair, McIntosh isn't even mentioned on their "recommended" or "not recommended" list. They did like Adcom and Orion amps though...***
Call Vel and ask them which amplifier they tested and I'll see if I can source you one to test...... [/B]
The other, of course, would be for the Zap installed into my Vel setup in car.
I'll give Vel a call after the Holdays. Hope yours is great also Ira!
Percy
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 170
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From: New Jersey
Percy,
Send the info to Ira Senoff c/o Mail Boxes Etc 302 Mercer Mall, Lawrenceville New Jersey 08648. It is my brother's store. Let me know when you are ready and I'll get you an amp or two to play with - or, if you really want a challenge, go to an IASCA competition in your area (where are you living?) and let me know how you stack up.
Ira
Send the info to Ira Senoff c/o Mail Boxes Etc 302 Mercer Mall, Lawrenceville New Jersey 08648. It is my brother's store. Let me know when you are ready and I'll get you an amp or two to play with - or, if you really want a challenge, go to an IASCA competition in your area (where are you living?) and let me know how you stack up.
Ira
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Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Illinois
Hi Ira!
I'm trying to get a Brax (Platinum) amp from Peter Lufrano to put them up in a match/comparo but he hasn't gotten around to answering me. He knows it's a writeup for Clublexus. It'll be a subjective listening test between Mc, Zapco and Brax. Should be interesting! All high end stuff.
I put the manuals away somewhere...I forgot where! But I will keep your address handy for mailing in case I find them. You know the old saying...when you're not looking you'll find them.
Peter sent me some info on the Vel correction circuit. I'll look for the email and PM it to you.
Percy
I'm trying to get a Brax (Platinum) amp from Peter Lufrano to put them up in a match/comparo but he hasn't gotten around to answering me. He knows it's a writeup for Clublexus. It'll be a subjective listening test between Mc, Zapco and Brax. Should be interesting! All high end stuff.
I put the manuals away somewhere...I forgot where! But I will keep your address handy for mailing in case I find them. You know the old saying...when you're not looking you'll find them.
Peter sent me some info on the Vel correction circuit. I'll look for the email and PM it to you.
Percy
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