Upgrade to 2002 SC430
05-01-11, 01:25 PM
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Upgrade to 2002 SC430
Hi, I'm posting some information on our upgrade to a 2002 SC430 with the Mark Levinson system. I apologize if any of this info has been posted prior - I can assure you I couldn't find it before the install.
I also run an OE integration forum called oeinterface.com. It's been a place to share information on what OE systems are doing to the audio signal, so those performing amp-and-speaker integrations can counteract it properly. I am in the process of changing this over to a wiki, since the forum approach did not get enough contributed information, just readers.
Anyway, on that site, we use a tool called the 3x3 - three questions we need to know the answers to in order to be able to guarantee a good amp integration. Each question has three answers (hence...)
The three questions are:
1) What is the usable signal type? (the possible answers are preamp balanced, preamp common-ground, or speaker-level).
2) What is the signal range? (the possible answers are full-range, partial-range with a usable crossover point, or partial-range -requires summing)
3) What is the signal response? (The possible answers are flat, fixed EQ, EQ varies with volume). (NOTE - these answers ignore any auto-loudness in the system, which mimics how we hear and does not need to be reversed).
The 2002 SC430 ML system tests very similarly to the recent Toyota JBL systems - it should be described as Speaker Level, Partial-Range Needs Summing, and Fixed EQ.
There is an analog signal from the head unit to the ML amplifier. However, there is only a L and R balanced signal, and there is no change in the voltage of that signal as you raise or lower the volume setting in the deck - that preamp function, as well as fader and other functions, takes place in the amplifier and is controlled by a databus connection between the HU and the amp (just like Toyota JBL). Technically, you could "grab" that balanced signal and get a flat, full-range, unprocessed signal, and use an external volume control, and it might be a bit cleaner - but you would lose your nav voice, and all preamp functions, and I don't like the human-interface implications of two volume ***** and one doesn't work
Below are screen shots of the electrical signal coming out of the ML amplfier as the head unit plays a pink-noise test tone. If the signal were full-range, the bars on the screen would stretch across the screen completely. If the signal were unequalized, every bar would be exactly the same height,and the line they form would be flat.
As you can see, the mid/tweeter signal is crossover filtered at about 1000 cycles, and has significant peaks and valleys.
High pass:
Bandpass midbass (6x9 in doors)
subwoofer (note higher amplitude with identical volume setting):
Rear side speakers:
So our upgrade was to take the front highpass, bandpass, and rear sub signals and sum them together into a full-range signal. We could have done this with the rear and sub if we wanted to, but most summing devices have 3 pairs of inputs, so it didn't make things any simpler, really.
Front high, midbass, sub summed together without any "normalization" applied:
We used an Audio Control LC8 to do the summing. Please note that the LC8 does NOT do anything to that EQ curve, and that EQ curve is NOT really for the cabin acoustics! It's for the crappy speakers Harman used! With good speakers, you need a flat "normalized" curve to start, and then you can optimize it if your gear will allow.
We used two Zapco DSP amplifiers - that is, amplifiers with DSP built in. The DSP sections have 10 parametric bands per channel as well as 24/dB crossover filters. We were able to get the entire EQ curve back to flat with this capability.
We also installed an Arc Audio 8" with 15mm of travel, and dual voice coils (we wanted to use the resistive damping approach if need be for the infinite-baffle woofer). The front doors got Morel Hybrid Ovation 5 components.
Our wiring interface (we add Molexes to the stock wiring):
The amp rack:
The woofer install (I am looking for the pics of the front, will post later):
This car turned out amazingly. Had no noise, no hiss, and had a ton of bass (more than I would have expected, and honestly more than I would have wanted, but the owner listens to a lot of rap and it came in handy).
If I were doing this car again, this approach would work wonderfully. If I were on a tight budget, I would use a JL Audio Clean Sweep, use the rear speakers and the subs, and run them through the F and R of the CS, purposely getting a partial range signal, and using that signal. If I were advising a DIY installer on gear choices, I would suggest the JL Audio CleanSweep 441dsp and SSI devices. You would get a flat full-range signal.
The JBL MS-8 would work too. I would not use any summing-only interface (Audio Control, Arc Audio SRI, etc.) without a pretty capable EQ afterwards, and expect good results. You need a de-eq processor, and if you don't have the test gear we have, you need an auto-adjusting one like the CleanSweep.
NOTE on nav voice: The output of the driver's mid/tweet goes from the ML amp INTO the nav computer, and out of that into the door and to the OEM midrange. We did NOT want to blow a trace on the OEM nav computer running our amp through there. So we cut the wire from the ML amp INTO the nav computer, left the output wire from the nav to the speaker in place, and ran our own speaker wire into the door for the driver' tweeter. The driver midwoofer used the stock midwoofer wire. This retained the stock nav and prevented any interference or issues between the two systems. The OEM HU is still muted when the OEM nav wants to send voice commands, so everything works just as before!
Will post more pics later when I get more off my camera.
I also run an OE integration forum called oeinterface.com. It's been a place to share information on what OE systems are doing to the audio signal, so those performing amp-and-speaker integrations can counteract it properly. I am in the process of changing this over to a wiki, since the forum approach did not get enough contributed information, just readers.
Anyway, on that site, we use a tool called the 3x3 - three questions we need to know the answers to in order to be able to guarantee a good amp integration. Each question has three answers (hence...)
The three questions are:
1) What is the usable signal type? (the possible answers are preamp balanced, preamp common-ground, or speaker-level).
2) What is the signal range? (the possible answers are full-range, partial-range with a usable crossover point, or partial-range -requires summing)
3) What is the signal response? (The possible answers are flat, fixed EQ, EQ varies with volume). (NOTE - these answers ignore any auto-loudness in the system, which mimics how we hear and does not need to be reversed).
The 2002 SC430 ML system tests very similarly to the recent Toyota JBL systems - it should be described as Speaker Level, Partial-Range Needs Summing, and Fixed EQ.
There is an analog signal from the head unit to the ML amplifier. However, there is only a L and R balanced signal, and there is no change in the voltage of that signal as you raise or lower the volume setting in the deck - that preamp function, as well as fader and other functions, takes place in the amplifier and is controlled by a databus connection between the HU and the amp (just like Toyota JBL). Technically, you could "grab" that balanced signal and get a flat, full-range, unprocessed signal, and use an external volume control, and it might be a bit cleaner - but you would lose your nav voice, and all preamp functions, and I don't like the human-interface implications of two volume ***** and one doesn't work
Below are screen shots of the electrical signal coming out of the ML amplfier as the head unit plays a pink-noise test tone. If the signal were full-range, the bars on the screen would stretch across the screen completely. If the signal were unequalized, every bar would be exactly the same height,and the line they form would be flat.
As you can see, the mid/tweeter signal is crossover filtered at about 1000 cycles, and has significant peaks and valleys.
High pass:
Bandpass midbass (6x9 in doors)
subwoofer (note higher amplitude with identical volume setting):
Rear side speakers:
So our upgrade was to take the front highpass, bandpass, and rear sub signals and sum them together into a full-range signal. We could have done this with the rear and sub if we wanted to, but most summing devices have 3 pairs of inputs, so it didn't make things any simpler, really.
Front high, midbass, sub summed together without any "normalization" applied:
We used an Audio Control LC8 to do the summing. Please note that the LC8 does NOT do anything to that EQ curve, and that EQ curve is NOT really for the cabin acoustics! It's for the crappy speakers Harman used! With good speakers, you need a flat "normalized" curve to start, and then you can optimize it if your gear will allow.
We used two Zapco DSP amplifiers - that is, amplifiers with DSP built in. The DSP sections have 10 parametric bands per channel as well as 24/dB crossover filters. We were able to get the entire EQ curve back to flat with this capability.
We also installed an Arc Audio 8" with 15mm of travel, and dual voice coils (we wanted to use the resistive damping approach if need be for the infinite-baffle woofer). The front doors got Morel Hybrid Ovation 5 components.
Our wiring interface (we add Molexes to the stock wiring):
The amp rack:
The woofer install (I am looking for the pics of the front, will post later):
This car turned out amazingly. Had no noise, no hiss, and had a ton of bass (more than I would have expected, and honestly more than I would have wanted, but the owner listens to a lot of rap and it came in handy).
If I were doing this car again, this approach would work wonderfully. If I were on a tight budget, I would use a JL Audio Clean Sweep, use the rear speakers and the subs, and run them through the F and R of the CS, purposely getting a partial range signal, and using that signal. If I were advising a DIY installer on gear choices, I would suggest the JL Audio CleanSweep 441dsp and SSI devices. You would get a flat full-range signal.
The JBL MS-8 would work too. I would not use any summing-only interface (Audio Control, Arc Audio SRI, etc.) without a pretty capable EQ afterwards, and expect good results. You need a de-eq processor, and if you don't have the test gear we have, you need an auto-adjusting one like the CleanSweep.
NOTE on nav voice: The output of the driver's mid/tweet goes from the ML amp INTO the nav computer, and out of that into the door and to the OEM midrange. We did NOT want to blow a trace on the OEM nav computer running our amp through there. So we cut the wire from the ML amp INTO the nav computer, left the output wire from the nav to the speaker in place, and ran our own speaker wire into the door for the driver' tweeter. The driver midwoofer used the stock midwoofer wire. This retained the stock nav and prevented any interference or issues between the two systems. The OEM HU is still muted when the OEM nav wants to send voice commands, so everything works just as before!
Will post more pics later when I get more off my camera.
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