jmecbr900

I've learned a lot from this thread. Like my buddy Eric has some skills I had no idea he had. Way to go Eric...

I want you to help me tune mine before I go down to Daytona in a few weeks.

mumbles

I'd be glad to help you tune...

mumbles

Wave guide speakers
Image Dynamic Horn Loaded Compression Drivers (waveguides) Scroll near the bottom of the page.
Butler tube amp
Didn't have much luck with automotive oriented servo driven subs, but here is an interesting link;
Critical Q Non Servo Sub

Eric

engin_ear

iTrader: (1)

I was going to suggest going to the IASCA website to see what the winners have been winning with, but when I did that myself, I couldn't find any useful info. Their website is pretty poor if you ask me....

Hameed

Eric and OLT,

If you had to pick between Zapco and the Tube Driver amps by Butler Audio, which ones would you pick for SQ? My guess is the Tubedriver amps...........

I am leaning towards these two TubeDriver amps
Tube Driver BLUE 475 to power the components
and Tube Driver BLUE 2150 to power the sub (or subs)

I have finally decided on the which subs to get:

I will get the Image Dynamics IDQ V2. D4 (dual 4 ohm voice coils). Can't decide if I need to get two of these or just one though.

04GS300

Hameed...just a couple of notes. I called Image Dynamics the other day and their tech guy told me that the ID v.3 had surpassed the IDQ v.2 in every area except that the IDQ doesn't require as large of an enclosure. He said that the IDQ hadn't really been updated in a while and the ID had been. This surprised me, but it's straight from the horse's mouth.

Also, I'm assuming that the Tubedriver amps are, in fact, tube driven. Just so you're aware, tubes are NOT hassle free amps (you have to replace tubes, and more). Unless you're at least somewhat familiar with tube amps and the differences in how they sound from solid state amps, I would definitely check one out to find out what you're getting into.

O. L. T.

iTrader: (17)

These tubes aren't like the olden days, these are indeed hassle free. Ceramic technology these days.

Tubedriver all the way for SQ. and talk about raw power..... whew! so smooth and warm, gentle sound, yet raw unbridled power.

If you like the IDQ's go for it, they are a great set of speakers, but one day i am going to meet you and bring servodrives with me i'm sure we can convince you to come to dragon '04 or '05

04GS300

OLT...I'd have to do some research on those tubes. I feel pretty comfortable saying that home audio is a lot more picky and esoteric than car audio. I own some Conrad Johnson tube gear for home audio, and while I've never heard of ceramic tubes, I feel pretty sure that if they were that much better than old tubes, then somebody would be using them. If not Conrad Johnson, then surely somebody like Lamm or some other $40,000 power amp manufacturer. The fact is that in home audio, NOS (new old stock) tubes, like German made Telefunken tubes from 40 years ago are considered the gold standard. The only recently made tube that is highly acclaimed that comes to mind is the 6H30 'supertube' that the Russians designed to use in fighter jets, and has been used in audio gear in recent years, like Balanced Audio Techonology (BAT).

Maybe the ceramic tubes are the best thing out there for car audio, but I find it hard to believe that they're the best tubes period. And regardless, tubes do have a different sound than solid state. Some like it better, some don't. Personally, I would stick with McIntosh car amps.

southernsc

resonants enginering XXX are notably the best subs out the for spl and sq in the "underground" audio world. you also have Adire's Brahama which compete with the XXX sub but the brahama does not look as sexy as the XXX imo. Both require crazy amounts of wattage (around 1500-2000 i believe) but with one sub you can reach 150db. theres a video out there of a guy with 9 brahamas hitting over 170db and breaking the metal on his car frame. elemental design's a-series is excellent but they no longer have their flat cones because they had to change suppliers, so their subs are now going through a change. do not bother with the hype of the jlw7, the XXX is about half the price and 10x more powerful and has a much better sound. oh yah. and your gonna want a very well made box because that is half the battle of sq and spl for subwoofers.

when it comes to size, always get the biggest you can fit for your car, if you can get a 15" put it in there. do not be fooled by the size thinking that it will not hit high end notes because thats not true, a 15" sub can hit extreme low hz and just as high as an 8" sub can. you NEED to sound deaden your car. for that go to second skin and get their ****80. do not get dynamat because some of their products are asphault based and they tend to smell like crap in the summer. also your HU will be important in SQ. make sure you have a good alpine hu.

but honestly to blow the competetion right out of the water get your self one 15" XXX sub with 2 alpine 1000watt d-class amps (forgot the name) and a alpine 9815 HU or better

mumbles

Hameed,
If you'll notice, I've carefully avoided the "what would you pick" questions. Not because I don't have recommendations, but because my experience with currently available equipment is lacking, and because opinions vary.
As for the Zapco vs Butler debate... both great amps. Zapco; more flexible, can handle varying loads better. Butler; warmer/richer sounding... some folks like this sound, others don't.
If you go with the IDQ subs and Butler amp, you'll need to use two subs. The Butler doesn't list the capability to drive a 2ohm load, so you'll need to use two dual 4ohm IDQ's, run the voice coils in series on each of the speakers, and then run the speakers in parallel to present the Butler with a 4ohm load.

Hameed

Eric, what I am beginning to realize is that the differences between different brands of good equipment is very subtle and will probably not be noticeable to any great degree by most peoples ears. What seems to be slightly more important (in SQ competitiions) is the install and tuning. So I think if I choose any of the high end equipment, I will get very good results. Is that a fair assessment?

So that still brings me to some choices I need to make regarding what equipment to buy.

I just noticed 2 zapco amps on ebay - a 4.0X and a 9.0X. I bid on both as the prices are very reasonable.

I posted the same questions on another board, and this is what someone else had to say about some good subs: (I asked him to rate them on a scale of 1 - 10 . 10 being the best in terms of SQ)

The Arc Audio sub = 7
Diamond M6 = 8
JL 12w6v2 = 7.5
JL 10w7 = 9
JL 12w7 = 9
Oz Audio ME 12.2 = 9.5
Onyx LSM v.2 = 10 (best sub I have heard SQ wise)
Kicker L7 = 4

What do you guys think of these ratings? I guess they are also very subjective........

Anyone heard the CDT Audio ES12SQ - Power handling: 12” 400 Watt RMS 600 Watt Max ?
I can get that for $340.00 shipped (brand new). I just bought the CDT Audio HD-62ST with the silk dome tweeters for $320.00 shipped (also brand new).

Maybe I should investigate the Onyx LSM v.2 sub some more.

southernsc

CDT audio only makes good speakers, they lack in the subwoofers because they are new at it

mumbles

Hameed,
That is a very fair assessment. Of course you want to get good equipment, but most folks can't tell the difference between amp A and amp B in a listening test, with a few exceptions. The point is, if you get something from a respectable company, Alpine, Zapco, PPI, Phoenix Gold, etc... you can pretty much throw out sound quality as a shopping criterium (amp wise anyway), and concentrate on features & power output.
It's very easy to spend much more money than you need to, so make sure you know the goals of your system exactly before buying the hardware. Example:
I know that I want a 3-way front stage, with very minimal rear fill, plus two subwoofers. So, I'm going to need eight channels of moderate power, plus one or two channels of high power. With the exception of the subs, all my speakers will be running at 4ohms. Knowing that, I can now start looking for 2 4-channel amps plus sub amp, or one 6 channel, one 2 channel, plus sub amp, etc... and I don't care about 2ohm output, so I'm going to concentrate on 4ohm output at 12volts (not 14volts). Now I can start comparing features like crossovers, bass boost, subsonic filters, etc...
BTW, that's a good price on the CDT's! Where did you find them?

sirsomo

This thread keeps going and going, there has been a lot of good input given. I think you should probably see if there are local vendors for the equipment you are looking at. I wouldn't buy something without hearing it first. Personally, I dont like the way tube amps sound, hard to explain a personal preference, but I think they are too soft. I dont like McIntosh either, but most people say they are awesome (Percy).

If I were doing an all out system I would have modded Zapco amps with symblink. Those 9.0s are awesome. There is a guy named Ira Senoff or something similar who was building a show GS running Zapco and Dynaudio if I remember correctly. You might want to see if you can find him, I think he made it to the finals with that car.

Also, if you do choose OZ subs, I think they made a triangular 2000w amp that would be cool to have. I would love to see one of you guys do an aperiodic enclosure.

Hameed

Curious to know why you need the 2 channel amp. Is it for the rear fill speakers? I am guessing the 6-channel amp is for the three-way front stage. What is the third part of the 3-way front stage - subwoofer? What equalizer will you be utilizing? Or will you strictly be relying on the crossovers for each speaker component?

I got that price for the CDT from the ebay seller that I bought the new HD-62ST set from. Let me know if you want his contact info.