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I have used the Toyota FIPG 103 as a substitute on my own personal Honda vehicles where the repair manual calls for HondaBond. No only on Oil sealing applications, but have used it to reseal the case of several manual transaxles during rebuilding. Never had any issues. I don’t see why it wouldn’t work both ways.
I like Toyota FIPG 103 better than HondaBond. I built road race motorcycle engines for some years and used HondaBond a lot sealing engine cases. When I started working on Toyota vehicles, I found the Toyota sealant to work better than HondaBond or YamaBond so I started using it on engine cases and never ever had an issue.
That said, I never use the factory instructions for sealant. I alway do it the same way I did engine cases because it doesn't produce a silicon worm on the inside (or the outside for that matter), and I've never had a leak of any kind on anything.
I like Toyota FIPG 103 better than HondaBond. I built road race motorcycle engines for some years and used HondaBond a lot sealing engine cases. When I started working on Toyota vehicles, I found the Toyota sealant to work better than HondaBond or YamaBond so I started using it on engine cases and never ever had an issue.
That said, I never use the factory instructions for sealant. I alway do it the same way I did engine cases because it doesn't produce a silicon worm on the inside (or the outside for that matter), and I've never had a leak of any kind on anything.
Lance, what are your thoughts on the early failure rate of the coolant plate leaking? Technician error, bad sealant? My latest coolant plate repair shows they used 00295-00103 fipg oil pan sealant. Also have you seen an ISF with a leaking timing chain cover?
1 if you are working on your own junk then you get to do whatever you want and face the consequences.
2. The proposed equivalent does sound like it would be effective. It’s unclear why the mothership wouldn’t call this out given the frequency of failures and the confusion.
3. This board is greatly improved by having techs contribute. In this case, it was stated that basically none of the techs at one location knew what was actually in the repair manual. Maybe I misunderstood the statement, but if true, that just confirms my utter lack of confidence in repairs done at Lexus and the premium put on their superior knowledge vs indy shops. In this case it might be just fine, but I would expect knowledge of the correct substitution and a logical justification rather than “well this says it will work.” Again, I apologize if I’ve misrepresented the statements. In no way am I suggesting my understanding and experience is superior to yours.
Idea
:it would be easy to laser cut some gasket material if someone thought that would be a superior fix. Probably a decent market if that was a good solution.
No, I said you used the wrong sealant. The books specifies a sealant for LLC. Where in your replies have we seen a sealant for LLC? All the sealants I used on motorcycles and cars were rated for sealing oil. Every single one. 1282B is NOT discontinued, it is available through Toyota. This is no different than the magic "V-160" transmission oil for the Getrag 233 in the Supra. You can buy it from Toyota, and ONLY from Toyota.
1282B is no longer produced by Three Bond. Yes you can still get it from the dealer.
lobuxracer would you agree that Three Bond 1207B is The same as Toyota FIPG 103?
1282B is no longer produced by Three Bond. Yes you can still get it from the dealer.
lobuxracer would you agree that Three Bond 1207B is The same as Toyota FIPG 103?
I am not sure the are "the same" but they are equivalents for sure. The 1993 Supra manual calls for part number 08826−00080 which crosses to FIPG 103 (my tube of 103 has P/N 00295-00103) for sealing the oil pump (I am actually doing this on mine right now) and the oil pan. For all the same applications - sealing the oil pan, oil pump, etc, on the 2UR, the manual specifies Three Bond 1207B. For reasons unknown, Toyota/Lexus decided to use the Three Bond numbers instead of their own part numbers in the manual some years ago. Even in the old printed manuals there were times when they called out both the Toyota number and the Three Bond number. One thing that is very clear, Toyota and Three Bond have a very long history working together solving sealing issues. Which takes me back to 1282B, a product developed exclusively for Toyota when they went to SLLC coolant. The biggest reason I see people not using it is the same reason few Supra owners run V-160 oil in their Getrag gearboxes - it's ridiculously expensive. $85 for a tube of 1282B tells me Toyota has it made for them and distributes it without competition, just like the V-160 oil, so they charge a small fortune for it.
Here's the real problem - if I have this repair done at Lexus and the tech chooses a different sealant and it fails, I can sue the dealership and expect to win. It would be the dealership's responsibility to prove whatever sealant the tech used is an equivalent. Absent this from Three Bond or Toyota/Lexus, they will lose every time. The packaging for the stupid expensive tube of 1282B says all over it in multiple places this is specifically for SLLC. It's even on the data sheet they stuff in the box (which FIPG 103 does not have included).
So - Patrick - I have no idea if the failure was related to the sealant or the tech. What I do know is, if they showed the wrong part number for the repair on your repair order, you have a reasonable case against them to have it repaired again at no cost to you. The service manual instructions are posted here. They will be hard pressed to get Three Bond and Toyota to agree that 1207B is an equivalent to 1282B when Toyota went to great lengths to develop this sealant.
...Idea
:it would be easy to laser cut some gasket material if someone thought that would be a superior fix. Probably a decent market if that was a good solution.
It's very hard to say if a gasket of material x would be a better choice. The coolant pump has a gasket, and assuming you could use the same material, it would seem reasonable to expect it would seal reliably, but the valley of the engine isn't the same as the front of the timing cover. The only thing you really have going for you is the block and the plate are both aluminum, not dissimilar metals with different expansion coefficients.
And again - this problem isn't universal. I think that's the most vexing part of the whole thing. Yes, I bought a tube of 1282B just in case I need it, but I have 166k miles on mine without any indication the valley plate leaks - yet. So, is there a market? I really don't know. Only Lexus really knows how many of these fail in service while under warranty. After that, it's anyone's guess.
I am not sure the are "the same" but they are equivalents for sure. The 1993 Supra manual calls for part number 08826−00080 which crosses to FIPG 103 (my tube of 103 has P/N 00295-00103) for sealing the oil pump (I am actually doing this on mine right now) and the oil pan. For all the same applications - sealing the oil pan, oil pump, etc, on the 2UR, the manual specifies Three Bond 1207B. For reasons unknown, Toyota/Lexus decided to use the Three Bond numbers instead of their own part numbers in the manual some years ago. Even in the old printed manuals there were times when they called out both the Toyota number and the Three Bond number. One thing that is very clear, Toyota and Three Bond have a very long history working together solving sealing issues. Which takes me back to 1282B, a product developed exclusively for Toyota when they went to SLLC coolant. The biggest reason I see people not using it is the same reason few Supra owners run V-160 oil in their Getrag gearboxes - it's ridiculously expensive. $85 for a tube of 1282B tells me Toyota has it made for them and distributes it without competition, just like the V-160 oil, so they charge a small fortune for it.
Here's the real problem - if I have this repair done at Lexus and the tech chooses a different sealant and it fails, I can sue the dealership and expect to win. It would be the dealership's responsibility to prove whatever sealant the tech used is an equivalent. Absent this from Three Bond or Toyota/Lexus, they will lose every time. The packaging for the stupid expensive tube of 1282B says all over it in multiple places this is specifically for SLLC. It's even on the data sheet they stuff in the box (which FIPG 103 does not have included).
Does your 93 Supra manual call for “08826-00080 or equivelant” ? The wording in the repair manual has changed for sealants and does not include part numbers anymore. I’m gonna say this was changed late 90’s early 2000’s. I don’t know the exact year but if important to anyone I will look it up. Let’s stick with the sealing of the oil pump. As an example. The repair manual would say to use Toyota Seal Packing Black, Three Bond 1207B, or equivelant. The P/N for Toyota Seal Packing Black is 08826-00080 Attached below is a picture of said. If you wouldn’t mind zooming in on the packaging you will see it’s says. “For engine oil, Long Life Coolant, Super Long life coolant” So why would you need to buy the super expensive 1282B for coolant when this stuff can be used for both?
I am not sure the are "the same" but they are equivalents for sure
e·quiv·a·lent
Dictionary result for equivalent
/əˈkwiv(ə)lənt/
adjective
1.
equal in value, amount, function, meaning, etc
attached below is an SDS sheet from Three Bond and also some general info on there website about 1207B.
I think the people on this thread deserve some piece of mind. Don’t you?
If you were to sue the dealer for the use of the wrong sealant. You would be the one to lose. Every time.
Then why does the manual, up to and including the 2UR-GSE on the 2019 GS F, say 1282B? They reference 1207B for everything oil in the same procedure, but say 1282B for the valley plate. My lawyer would write a letter and not lose once with this document, and the dealership would just do it again instead of fighting it.
I get your point that 1207B says it's good for everything, but when the factory says use this and you chose not to, all the risk is on you.
Also, if it is discontinued, why is it still showing up in a 2019 manual? To clear the backstock from 10 years ago? Retail doesn't work like that.
For all this anyway you could probably seal it with a whole lot of other products, and no doubt there have been those who have. The point of this particular discussion is:
1. Why does it fail?
2. Why does it fail more than once on the same car?
3. When the guidance is clear cut, why chose an alternate path, especially if you are working in a dealership? If you follow the specifications in the manual, you have Lexus on your side. If you don't and choose a different route, the proof is on you to convince a judge you did an equivalent. Best of luck with that. BTDT got a few t-shirts.
attached below is an SDS sheet from Three Bond and also some general info on there website about 1207B.
I think the people on this thread deserve some piece of mind. Don’t you?
If you were to sue the dealer for the use of the wrong sealant. You would be the one to lose. Every time.
I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve been an expert witnes and I regularly read technical data sheets. Sorry to say most of that is just marketing. Not a lot of ASTM tests cited to support their claims. On the other hand I’d be very surprised if those ASTM test results don’t exist. I’m just saying that specific documentation doesn’t hold up.
If if I was really interested in the answer I would dig into it. The thing is I truly believe the mothership has this all in hand and they have decided there is a problem with the “regular” sealant. Maybe that’s the crap that’s been failing. Maybe there’s some weird historical reason for it. I feel confident if a few cases get settled on account of not following the official procedure then there would be updated documentation for the correct fix explicitly stating one way or the other. In the mean time I’ll eat some more popcorn and step back.
1. Why does it fail?
2. Why does it fail more than once on the same car?
3. When the guidance is clear cut, why chose an alternate path, especially if you are working in a dealership? If you follow the specifications in the manual, you have Lexus on your side. If you don't and choose a different route, the proof is on you to convince a judge you did an equivalent. Best of luck with that. BTDT got a few t-shirts.
Agreed, so let’s stay on the topic of that.
1. I have already said in a previous post, that a gray sealant is used during engine assembly, not the black stuff. The gray is used to seal the entire engine. Valley plate, Timing cover, Oil pan. Everywhere sealant is used during assembly at the plant, its gray. This is across all engine platforms. See pics below. 2016 GS F block with valley plate removed. You can see the gray sealant around the edges. Don’t mind the hole, customer hydrolocked engine. RX350 with timing cover removed. Same gray sealant, including around the inlet and outlet of the water pump where coolant flows.
2. It does not fail twice the factory sealant is different. It’s likely due to human error.
3. I highly doubt a judge would side with you and your lawyer & against the engineers at Three Bond. Best of luck with that.
Screen shot of email I received earlier today from Three Bond.
I rest my case. I can only hope that people will read through all 30 pages of this thread to get the facts.
That still doesn't answer why the manual calls for 1207B in every step above and below sealing the valley plate where they call out 1282B.
It's all fine and good that a sales rep says it's so. He's not on the stand representing his company and never will be. No one will take this to court. It will be settled simply by reworking the repair for free. It's way too cheap to do anything else. If someone were blaming it on an engine failure, maybe you'd end up in court.
So, how about we put in a change request to Lexus to get the step calling for 1282B to say 1207B? That would end the discussion right there if Lexus agreed.
That still doesn't answer why the manual calls for 1207B in every step above and below sealing the valley plate where they call out 1282B.
It's all fine and good that a sales rep says it's so. He's not on the stand representing his company and never will be. No one will take this to court. It will be settled simply by reworking the repair for free. It's way too cheap to do anything else. If someone were blaming it on an engine failure, maybe you'd end up in court.
So, how about we put in a change request to Lexus to get the step calling for 1282B to say 1207B? That would end the discussion right there if Lexus agreed.
I would agree it would never make it to the courts.
The manual still also calls for Toyota Seal Packing Black. We know this was superceeded by Toyota Seal Packing 103 (FIPG). Does this mean if I use the 103 when the repair manual clearly states to use Seal Packing Black, that I used the wrong sealant? No. Why was the repair manual never updated to the new sealant? Your guess is as good as mine.
It looks like it was starting in the 2007 model year the manual started referring to sealants by name and no longer part #. That’s the last change I could find.
03-01-19, 06:31 PM
