C&D Comparo: IS-F vs. M3 Sedan
#61
#62
I like the fact that it's a 4 door. The 2 door would have been inconvinient... There were many things that my wife liked about the car, 4 doors was one of them..
If I could have purchased a 2 door, I probably would have purchased a Cayman S.
If I could have purchased a 2 door, I probably would have purchased a Cayman S.
#63
Speaks French in Russian
Thread Starter
I will be picking up an EVO magazine (European magazine) soon. They had a similar test (IS-F vs. M3) and the word on the street is that the results are to close to call (the IS-F might have taught the M3 a thing or two...... hmmmmm). I'll find out myself tomorrow.
#64
What C&D mentioned really has nothing to do with tires. It has to do with IS-F not having LSD therefore not being able to put the power down to the wheels coming out of the corner. Inside wheel lose traction coming out of the corner b/c of the weight transfer NOT b/c rear wheel has 10mm less rubber. If IS-F had a real LSD, then the outside wheel - which now has the traction due to weight shift - would be able to put all the power down. You know, like the way M3 and any real sports coupe/sedan should.
from C&D
Coming out of corners, the IS F could use a mechanical limited-slip differential because the inside wheel has a tendency to spin when accelerating hard. Lexus relies on the stability-and-traction-control systems to counter that trait, but it’s too intrusive for track use, so we shut if off.
from C&D
Coming out of corners, the IS F could use a mechanical limited-slip differential because the inside wheel has a tendency to spin when accelerating hard. Lexus relies on the stability-and-traction-control systems to counter that trait, but it’s too intrusive for track use, so we shut if off.
of course it has its downsides as well, so Lexus chose what they wanted to.
picking apart reviews for sentences to prove your point is silly... real point is that there hasnt been an single review that didnt like IS-F.
#65
I quoted that article to show that it's the lack of LSD much more than 10mm less rubber that's causing lack of traction coming out of the corner. Even if you put 10mm 20mm 30mm more width to the rear wheels without the LSD inside wheel's still gonna lose traction due to weight shift and VDIM is gonna get the traction back by putting brakes to the outside wheel thus slowing the car down.
Perhaps no single Review didn't like IS-F, but none of them liked enough to plac IS-F on top of the competition in any of the comparison reviews either. In fact I think in most of them it finished last. It's very puzzling why Lexus put a slushbox and no LSD on its top performance 4 seater.
Perhaps no single Review didn't like IS-F, but none of them liked enough to plac IS-F on top of the competition in any of the comparison reviews either. In fact I think in most of them it finished last. It's very puzzling why Lexus put a slushbox and no LSD on its top performance 4 seater.
ehm, meatier tire, more traction, less spin, under any situation.
of course it has its downsides as well, so Lexus chose what they wanted to.
picking apart reviews for sentences to prove your point is silly... real point is that there hasnt been an single review that didnt like IS-F.
of course it has its downsides as well, so Lexus chose what they wanted to.
picking apart reviews for sentences to prove your point is silly... real point is that there hasnt been an single review that didnt like IS-F.
#66
I quoted that article to show that it's the lack of LSD much more than 10mm less rubber that's causing lack of traction coming out of the corner. Even if you put 10mm 20mm 30mm more width to the rear wheels without the LSD inside wheel's still gonna lose traction due to weight shift and VDIM is gonna get the traction back by putting brakes to the outside wheel thus slowing the car down.
Perhaps no single Review didn't like IS-F, but none of them liked enough to plac IS-F on top of the competition in any of the comparison reviews either. In fact I think in most of them it finished last. It's very puzzling why Lexus put a slushbox and no LSD on its top performance 4 seater.
Perhaps no single Review didn't like IS-F, but none of them liked enough to plac IS-F on top of the competition in any of the comparison reviews either. In fact I think in most of them it finished last. It's very puzzling why Lexus put a slushbox and no LSD on its top performance 4 seater.
I just had to get into this debate since, I'm an engineer (MechEng w/ concentration in Vehicle eng).
So, with that being said, the mags should've put same tires on all cars and then do the test. Because the greater the area (contact area), the greater the chance of maximum traction. Therefore, under identical load and on the same dry surface, the wider tire has a greater contact area and develops higher traction, resulting in a better acceleration, cornering dynamics, and stopping capability. So, even though the IS-F doesn't have an LSD, they should've at least put the same kind of tires on ALL cars to make it close as possible. And I'm willing to bet that one would see different results. I'm not saying the IS-F would beat the M3 but, it would give better results.
I like both M3 and IS-F so, I'm not arguing, just laying out the physics...
#67
Lexus Fanatic
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It's interesting to see people argue over stuff that when all closely examined, governs the nature of how a vehicle works. An LSD, Wider tires, etc; they ALL make a big difference!
I just had to get into this debate since, I'm an engineer (MechEng w/ concentration in Vehicle eng).
So, with that being said, the mags should've put same tires on all cars and then do the test. Because the greater the area (contact area), the greater the chance of maximum traction. Therefore, under identical load and on the same dry surface, the wider tire has a greater contact area and develops higher traction, resulting in a better acceleration, cornering dynamics, and stopping capability. So, even though the IS-F doesn't have an LSD, they should've at least put the same kind of tires on ALL cars to make it close as possible. And I'm willing to bet that one would see different results. I'm not saying the IS-F would beat the M3 but, it would give better results.
I like both M3 and IS-F so, I'm not arguing, just laying out the physics...
I just had to get into this debate since, I'm an engineer (MechEng w/ concentration in Vehicle eng).
So, with that being said, the mags should've put same tires on all cars and then do the test. Because the greater the area (contact area), the greater the chance of maximum traction. Therefore, under identical load and on the same dry surface, the wider tire has a greater contact area and develops higher traction, resulting in a better acceleration, cornering dynamics, and stopping capability. So, even though the IS-F doesn't have an LSD, they should've at least put the same kind of tires on ALL cars to make it close as possible. And I'm willing to bet that one would see different results. I'm not saying the IS-F would beat the M3 but, it would give better results.
I like both M3 and IS-F so, I'm not arguing, just laying out the physics...
Having the inside wheel slip around the corners will only slow down cornering speeds-it does not get simpler than that.
#68
So, with that being said, the mags should've put same tires on all cars and then do the test. Because the greater the area (contact area), the greater the chance of maximum traction. Therefore, under identical load and on the same dry surface, the wider tire has a greater contact area and develops higher traction, resulting in a better acceleration, cornering dynamics, and stopping capability. So, even though the IS-F doesn't have an LSD, they should've at least put the same kind of tires on ALL cars to make it close as possible.
So if we butted in and put our own choice of tire on the car, we'd effectively invalidate two years of engineering labor. We might make the car better in our opinion, but we could just as easily make it worse. Obviously, we couldn't criticize a car for our change, so to be fair, we test all cars with their original-equipment tires.
#69
Well, since you bought up physics, then you should also be aware that even with identical tires the weight of the cars also have a play in the amount of traction each car can apply to the ground.
Having the inside wheel slip around the corners will only slow down cornering speeds-it does not get simpler than that.
Having the inside wheel slip around the corners will only slow down cornering speeds-it does not get simpler than that.
Also, imagine if you put 1000lb of weight on a bicycle tire vs. a normal car tire... Which do you think would be better (assuming same weight)? That is where the width of the tires come in to play. The more *Contact Patch* you have, the better "friction/traction" can be achieved. And that is where I was getting at. You are correct, about weight transfer being a critical part since tractive force on the tires is (F_tract = (coeff friction)*(weight)); however, that could be a totally different argument in itself because you can talk about suspension, chassis design, etc.
Last edited by Cornellian; 04-06-08 at 03:03 PM.
#70
In that case, Lexus engineers should've thought about it...
I guess, buyers who are so inclined to increase marginal performance can go to the route of changing tires.
#72
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Perhaps no single Review didn't like IS-F, but none of them liked enough to plac IS-F on top of the competition in any of the comparison reviews either. In fact I think in most of them it finished last. It's very puzzling why Lexus put a slushbox and no LSD on its top performance 4 seater.
What I find puzzling is why you continue to bring up the auto transmission, when the praise for the 8 speed direct shift is almost universal.
#73
If Lexus would put a Manual transmission in their IS-F and a limited slip diff than they would look a lot better on paper to these other competitors. I have driven both and I liked the M3 much more. I currently own two Lexus cars and think they are great reliable cars. However, I think Lexus still wants to make a little cush into its sports sedan. I thought the IS-F was a little too civilized for me. When you start up a M3 and drive it in the parking lot it feels like a race car ready to launch. I didn't get the same feeling from the IS-F. I am sure when you keep the car's rpm's above 3500 than the IS-F is pretty fun but getting the automatic transmission to do what you want is a little different. If you haven't driven both than go do it and come back and write a new review.
#74
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SilverBull: You keep writing bad reviews in regards to the IS-F and almost every single aspect of the car after a single test drive with the salesman in the car. I too have had that experience, except throw my mom in the back seat as well. A single test drive does not do either the M3 or the IS-F any justice, trust me. The first 1000 miles doesn't do the IS-F justice. Once it is broken in is when it becomes even more of an animal.
I do truly respect your opinion dont get me wrong. And you are obviously a loyal Lexus consumer, I'm not arguing that. I just think you need to get a ligetimate drive in before you start pointing out flaws.
If you want, fly to Chicago and we can take my IS-F out for a whole day. Or find someone more local who can help. Or just buy the M3 already!!! What are you waiting for???
I do truly respect your opinion dont get me wrong. And you are obviously a loyal Lexus consumer, I'm not arguing that. I just think you need to get a ligetimate drive in before you start pointing out flaws.
If you want, fly to Chicago and we can take my IS-F out for a whole day. Or find someone more local who can help. Or just buy the M3 already!!! What are you waiting for???
#75
Lexus Test Driver
Lexus is never going to go with an MT in any car ever - it's just silly to expect that from this brand. The most that we'll ever see is a transplanted SMG that's currently planned for the LF-A.