C&D Comparo: IS-F vs. M3 Sedan
04-03-08, 05:57 PM
#46
I would like to see the same test of the M3 with the SMG trans. Not saying that the outcome would be different, but it might be closer. (or farther apart)
What I have got from the magazine tests is that they like the M3 better on the track and the ISF better on the street. Both cars are very, very close. Skip
What I have got from the magazine tests is that they like the M3 better on the track and the ISF better on the street. Both cars are very, very close. Skip
04-03-08, 06:04 PM
#47
What C&D mentioned really has nothing to do with tires. It has to do with IS-F not having LSD therefore not being able to put the power down to the wheels coming out of the corner. Inside wheel lose traction coming out of the corner b/c of the weight transfer NOT b/c rear wheel has 10mm less rubber. If IS-F had a real LSD, then the outside wheel - which now has the traction due to weight shift - would be able to put all the power down. You know, like the way M3 and any real sports coupe/sedan should.
from C&D
Coming out of corners, the IS F could use a mechanical limited-slip differential because the inside wheel has a tendency to spin when accelerating hard. Lexus relies on the stability-and-traction-control systems to counter that trait, but it’s too intrusive for track use, so we shut if off.
from C&D
Coming out of corners, the IS F could use a mechanical limited-slip differential because the inside wheel has a tendency to spin when accelerating hard. Lexus relies on the stability-and-traction-control systems to counter that trait, but it’s too intrusive for track use, so we shut if off.
Fact is you don't know for sure whether or NOT wider tires would or wouldn't help the IS-F. You don't know any more than I do, since you're not an engineer who worked on the IS-F.
The FACTS are that C&D noticed wheelspin at high speeds on one of the front tires. Other magazines noticed the IS-F slides around a little bit at high speeds, and another review noticed wheel spin from a stop. You can talk all you want about that it's not the tires and it's a chassis problem. The fact remains, wheel spin indicates SOME sort of traction problem, and traction problems are usually associated with the tires more than the chassis or anything else.
Calling me pathetic really gives you a lot of credibility, keep it up
.
The FACTS are that C&D noticed wheelspin at high speeds on one of the front tires. Other magazines noticed the IS-F slides around a little bit at high speeds, and another review noticed wheel spin from a stop. You can talk all you want about that it's not the tires and it's a chassis problem. The fact remains, wheel spin indicates SOME sort of traction problem, and traction problems are usually associated with the tires more than the chassis or anything else.
Calling me pathetic really gives you a lot of credibility, keep it up
.
04-03-08, 07:25 PM
#48
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Lack of LSD does not fully explain the wheel spin IS-F experiences from a stop, or being able to spin the tires in 2nd and even 3rd gear. It also doesn't fully explain the IS-F's tendency to slide a bit at high speeds.
04-03-08, 07:35 PM
#49
So you think you can slap 10mm of more rubber to the rear wheels and THAT's gonna stop the wheel spin from dig in 1st 2nd gears?
04-03-08, 08:55 PM
#50
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Actually I do know that wider tires will not help the IS-F pull harder becuase I have a general understanding of basic physics. If you're not exceeding the grip levels of the rear wheels then traction is not a problem, and putting more rubber down is going to negatively affect the car in acceleartion because of added weight. It MAY help with the initial launch but will not help the car pull harder through out it's rev range. Period.
Also, it is physically impossible to have wheel spin on the front tires on a RWD vehicle. Please get your terminology straight before tell people their wrong.
You're absolulty right about one thing though, I do not know if wider tires would help with handling. I never once said that they wouldn't, they possibly could. Putting more rubber on the front tires could very well help the IS-F with it's understeer problem when driving at the very limit. But how would it affect it during other driving conditions when it isn't being pushed to it's very limit? That's what we don't know and that is much harder to predict without actually doing some tests.
Anyway, you can continue to "believe" what you want. You can live in your own little world with "if" this and "what if" that. The reality is that the IS-F does not handle as well. Weather it pulls as well is debatable, since my M/T article has the IS-F being a hair faster/quicker than the M3.
Also, it is physically impossible to have wheel spin on the front tires on a RWD vehicle. Please get your terminology straight before tell people their wrong.
You're absolulty right about one thing though, I do not know if wider tires would help with handling. I never once said that they wouldn't, they possibly could. Putting more rubber on the front tires could very well help the IS-F with it's understeer problem when driving at the very limit. But how would it affect it during other driving conditions when it isn't being pushed to it's very limit? That's what we don't know and that is much harder to predict without actually doing some tests.
Anyway, you can continue to "believe" what you want. You can live in your own little world with "if" this and "what if" that. The reality is that the IS-F does not handle as well. Weather it pulls as well is debatable, since my M/T article has the IS-F being a hair faster/quicker than the M3.
Last edited by Ramon; 04-03-08 at 09:04 PM.
04-03-08, 09:09 PM
#51
Lexus Test Driver
Don't be too hard on the F, it's Lexus's first stab at making a high performance car that is the IS-F and they gid a fine job imo. I'm sure Lexus will fine tune the next model and make it a clear winner, from what it has learnt. As for now lets conceed...if not, atleast 0-60.
04-03-08, 09:19 PM
#52
Interesting article but the valid concerns others have brought up such as rebate points, fuel economy points,etc.. will only bring more criticism against C&R, a publication I long ago decided to ignore.
Both fine cars for sure but to reiterate, why the skinnier tires and lack of a true LSD is beyond me.
Both fine cars for sure but to reiterate, why the skinnier tires and lack of a true LSD is beyond me.
Last edited by Pearlpower; 04-03-08 at 10:08 PM.
04-03-08, 10:02 PM
#53
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Don't be too hard on the F, it's Lexus's first stab at making a high performance car that is the IS-F and they gid a fine job imo. I'm sure Lexus will fine tune the next model and make it a clear winner, from what it has learnt. As for now lets conceed...if not, atleast 0-60.
04-03-08, 10:56 PM
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I believe that the dual clutch is in the new SMG that is not out yet. The manual trans might have a dual disk clutch also.
My point was that one car had a manual trans and one car had an automatic. Te SMG trans is suppose to be out in a few months and it is suppose to be a dual clutch setup. Skip
My point was that one car had a manual trans and one car had an automatic. Te SMG trans is suppose to be out in a few months and it is suppose to be a dual clutch setup. Skip
04-04-08, 12:28 AM
#55
Lexus Test Driver
i seriously considered last weekend buying an M3 based on the data i read from C&D
however what really turned me off about the article which is an out right lie is that they are similar in price.
i priced out an M3 with every option to make it the same equipped as the IS-F. forget about base price i doubt seriously you will see any IS-F models that are not fully loaded.
but to get the M3 with all the toys will run you a tad over 70K
sure the M3 has more driving features lime M mode and tunable suspention among other items but most of thoes items would be best used on a track. so unless you need the Ultimate driving machine on a track i dont see the need for them. if i pushed the M3 to its limits on the streets they would put me in jail!
on that subject in my IS-350 the only corner i take fast in about 4 blocks from my house and i do it just because its fun, not because i plan on testing the cornering ability of the car. to do that i would need to run on a track. so if 10K more money is worth all of the additional track toys an M3 would be the right car for me. however ive decided if a car with 400+ HP is in my plans for my next lease i think the IS-F will do just fine!
about the only things that impress me about the M3 is the wheels and stance look SICK! the body is very aggresive and looks like its going 100 mph while standing still, i would love to rev it to 8400 RPM BUT!!! i really don't care for german cars all that much and i cant see spending another 10K to get all the toys i want.
if im being honest i think the C&D comparason has both cars so close with some very slight strong and weak points for each its hard to really say 1 is better than the other. to me i think it would be more accurate to say 1 is best suited for a track and the other is best suited for a daily driver with the ability to spank about 90% of the cars on the road in just about every category.
however what really turned me off about the article which is an out right lie is that they are similar in price.
i priced out an M3 with every option to make it the same equipped as the IS-F. forget about base price i doubt seriously you will see any IS-F models that are not fully loaded.
but to get the M3 with all the toys will run you a tad over 70K
sure the M3 has more driving features lime M mode and tunable suspention among other items but most of thoes items would be best used on a track. so unless you need the Ultimate driving machine on a track i dont see the need for them. if i pushed the M3 to its limits on the streets they would put me in jail!
on that subject in my IS-350 the only corner i take fast in about 4 blocks from my house and i do it just because its fun, not because i plan on testing the cornering ability of the car. to do that i would need to run on a track. so if 10K more money is worth all of the additional track toys an M3 would be the right car for me. however ive decided if a car with 400+ HP is in my plans for my next lease i think the IS-F will do just fine!
about the only things that impress me about the M3 is the wheels and stance look SICK! the body is very aggresive and looks like its going 100 mph while standing still, i would love to rev it to 8400 RPM BUT!!! i really don't care for german cars all that much and i cant see spending another 10K to get all the toys i want.
if im being honest i think the C&D comparason has both cars so close with some very slight strong and weak points for each its hard to really say 1 is better than the other. to me i think it would be more accurate to say 1 is best suited for a track and the other is best suited for a daily driver with the ability to spank about 90% of the cars on the road in just about every category.
04-04-08, 07:32 AM
#56
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i seriously considered last weekend buying an M3 based on the data i read from C&D
however what really turned me off about the article which is an out right lie is that they are similar in price.
i priced out an M3 with every option to make it the same equipped as the IS-F. forget about base price i doubt seriously you will see any IS-F models that are not fully loaded.
but to get the M3 with all the toys will run you a tad over 70K
sure the M3 has more driving features lime M mode and tunable suspention among other items but most of thoes items would be best used on a track. so unless you need the Ultimate driving machine on a track i dont see the need for them. if i pushed the M3 to its limits on the streets they would put me in jail!
on that subject in my IS-350 the only corner i take fast in about 4 blocks from my house and i do it just because its fun, not because i plan on testing the cornering ability of the car. to do that i would need to run on a track. so if 10K more money is worth all of the additional track toys an M3 would be the right car for me. however ive decided if a car with 400+ HP is in my plans for my next lease i think the IS-F will do just fine!
about the only things that impress me about the M3 is the wheels and stance look SICK! the body is very aggresive and looks like its going 100 mph while standing still, i would love to rev it to 8400 RPM BUT!!! i really don't care for german cars all that much and i cant see spending another 10K to get all the toys i want.
if im being honest i think the C&D comparason has both cars so close with some very slight strong and weak points for each its hard to really say 1 is better than the other. to me i think it would be more accurate to say 1 is best suited for a track and the other is best suited for a daily driver with the ability to spank about 90% of the cars on the road in just about every category.
however what really turned me off about the article which is an out right lie is that they are similar in price.
i priced out an M3 with every option to make it the same equipped as the IS-F. forget about base price i doubt seriously you will see any IS-F models that are not fully loaded.
but to get the M3 with all the toys will run you a tad over 70K
sure the M3 has more driving features lime M mode and tunable suspention among other items but most of thoes items would be best used on a track. so unless you need the Ultimate driving machine on a track i dont see the need for them. if i pushed the M3 to its limits on the streets they would put me in jail!
on that subject in my IS-350 the only corner i take fast in about 4 blocks from my house and i do it just because its fun, not because i plan on testing the cornering ability of the car. to do that i would need to run on a track. so if 10K more money is worth all of the additional track toys an M3 would be the right car for me. however ive decided if a car with 400+ HP is in my plans for my next lease i think the IS-F will do just fine!
about the only things that impress me about the M3 is the wheels and stance look SICK! the body is very aggresive and looks like its going 100 mph while standing still, i would love to rev it to 8400 RPM BUT!!! i really don't care for german cars all that much and i cant see spending another 10K to get all the toys i want.
if im being honest i think the C&D comparason has both cars so close with some very slight strong and weak points for each its hard to really say 1 is better than the other. to me i think it would be more accurate to say 1 is best suited for a track and the other is best suited for a daily driver with the ability to spank about 90% of the cars on the road in just about every category.
IMO, I don't think you can sum it up better than that. I agree with Bass_Tech, the M3 IMO is more of a track car. Whereas the IS-F is perfect for everything on and off the track. Nuff said
04-04-08, 06:05 PM
#58
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The ODD thing is initial reviews said the IS-F was the most TRACK READY of all these cars.
You see there is a plus/minus with the 255s of the IS-F. If they are meatier they may help drop acceleration times a little bit more, possibly, it may feel more secure in the corners.
It may take some FUN out the equation, b/c instead of a very slidable car, you have one that stays planted.
Let me explain, in my stock GS 430 or 400 with the VSC off and the stock 245 tires, the car peels out, I can slide it, and I really have fun learning the car, the power just makes her slide and I have to make sure I don't oversteer.
When I add all these braces and suspension parts and 275 tires, I can take corners with confidence nearly twice as fast but is that more fun? I can dust someone in shock and talk about how the car is FASTER in corners now compared to stock.
But its more stable and secure and somewhat, less fun.
Bottom line the IS-F is the most tested Toyota/Lexus product EVER. I think they know what is best for the car and the loss to the M3 doesn't but me at all.
You see there is a plus/minus with the 255s of the IS-F. If they are meatier they may help drop acceleration times a little bit more, possibly, it may feel more secure in the corners.
It may take some FUN out the equation, b/c instead of a very slidable car, you have one that stays planted.
Let me explain, in my stock GS 430 or 400 with the VSC off and the stock 245 tires, the car peels out, I can slide it, and I really have fun learning the car, the power just makes her slide and I have to make sure I don't oversteer.
When I add all these braces and suspension parts and 275 tires, I can take corners with confidence nearly twice as fast but is that more fun? I can dust someone in shock and talk about how the car is FASTER in corners now compared to stock.
But its more stable and secure and somewhat, less fun.
Bottom line the IS-F is the most tested Toyota/Lexus product EVER. I think they know what is best for the car and the loss to the M3 doesn't but me at all.
04-04-08, 06:27 PM
#59
I'd like to see some IS-F videos wth aftermarket exhaust on.
Here's an M3 with Eisenmann Exhaust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osk8gbhxNhk
Here's an M3 with Eisenmann Exhaust
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osk8gbhxNhk
Any aftermarket exhaust for the IS-F yet?
